Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

601HDS to LSA
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

slandwcmitch(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

I need info on changing my HDS to LSA status. It seems that I need to change the wings to HD or ?

 There has been prior discussions on this, but I can't find it. I've sent e-mail to Zenith, no reply yet. My wings are completed with tanks and lockers. Maybe a trade?? Thanks for any help.

 Bill Mitchell            cont-0-200

           [quote][b]

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

Hi Bill,



 I wonder why you might want to do this change.



 If your plane is compatible with the LSA spec then you can operate it as a Sport Pilot without any paper work changes.  If it is not then there is nothing you can do to make it work for that purpose.



 I think the basic problem with an HDS for use as a LSA is the stall speed.  Unfortunately, changing the wings to make it compliant doesn't help.  I believe rule requires that any plane have always been consistent with that definition to qualify for use by a Sport Pilot.



 Perhaps a trade of entire planes would work better for you.



 Paul

 XL awaiting engineering changes.



 

 At 11:34 AM 8/17/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]I need info on changing my HDS to LSA status. It seems that I need to change the wings to HD or ?

 There has been prior discussions on this, but I can't find it. I've sent e-mail to Zenith, no reply yet. My wings are completed with tanks and lockers. Maybe a trade?? Thanks for any help.

 Bill Mitchell            cont-0-200



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  

[/b] 	
[b]

grs-pms(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

Bill:

  

 Would the addition of vortex generators give you a sufficient  decrease in stall speed to qualuify for LSA?  Just a  thought...

  

 George Swinford   CH601 HD project holding at  90%

 [quote]   ---

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

Bill,

If your HDS flight envelope and stall speed agree with Light Sport 

Aircraft, you have the plane you want. Some of the HDS 601s have a 

higher stall speed than

required for LSA, so you need to visit your Aircraft's Operating 

Handbook to find out what stall speed is for your particular plane.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com (LSA compliant)



Bill Shirley Mitchell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I need info on changing my HDS to LSA status. It seems that I need to 

 change the wings to HD or ?

 There has been prior discussions on this, but I can't find it. I've 

 sent e-mail to Zenith, no reply yet. My wings are completed with tanks 

 and lockers. Maybe a trade?? Thanks for any help.

 Bill Mitchell            cont-0-200



 *

 *

cherring

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 5
Location: NC

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: 601HDS to LSA

If you have a plane that did not meet the LSA specs at the time it received its original airworthiness certificate, or any time since, that plane can never qualify as light-sport. It must meet the guidelines at the time of original AW cert and must have been "continuously operated" under those guidelines since that time. That means you cannot fly the plane outside the LSA criteria and then make modifications later which make the plane meet the LSA performance specs. Yes, the POH would be the place to look. If it shows the gross weight, stall & cruise speed limites within LSA, you're in luck. If not, there is nothing you can do to make it LSA.



I researched this pretty well because I have an HDS that I bought 90% complete and have almost finished. I plan to have it meet the LSA criteria by adding VG's before the inspection for the initial airworthiness certificate so it should meet the guideline for stall speed. Trying to follow the rules.

naumuk(at)windstream.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:27 pm Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

All-

     To sum up the main  points-

     1. You can't add vortex  generators to achieve LSA compliance because they aren't included in the  original design, but are aftermarket.

     2. If you haven't completed and  previously registered your plane as Experimental, Owner Built, you can legally  change in midstream to the HD wing configuration with the blessing of both the  FAA and Zenith. 

     There are numerous posts on  this subject in the archives.

                                                                                                                Bill

 [quote]   ---

cherring

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 5
Location: NC

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: 601HDS to LSA

I think I am correct that adding VG's before the original AW Cert would help because it would (hopefully) allow the plane to meet the LSA stall speed limit. It isn't the VG's themselves that make it compliant or not, it is the stall speed, which is what it is as determined during initial flight testing. Agreed, adding them later does not allow a plane to meet LSA it is has been previously flown outside of the criteria. 



Not sure what you mean by "aftermarket" - do you mean after the original A/W?

>>>>>>>

"1. You can't add vortex generators to achieve LSA compliance because they aren't included in the original design, but are aftermarket. "

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

If it's an E-AB, the original design doesn't mean a thing. The only  

thing that matters is that the airplane meet the LSA limitations at  

the time of it's original certification. For an E-AB, whatever it  

takes to make the plane meet the requirements of LSA is fair game. The  

entire airplane is "aftermarket". The only place the stall speed is  

recorded is in the POH, which you will prove out during phase 1  

testing. Make sure that your POH shows compliance with the rules.



In the E-AB airworthiness certification, there is no mention of LSA  

limitations. You will certificate is as E-AB and then, if you  

determine that it meets the limitations, you can fly it under LSA  

rules. You will probably have no trouble flying any Zodiac under LSA  

rules. The FAA would be extremely unlikely to call you on it. If you  

tried it with an RV-6, it would be a different matter, it is well  

known that most RVs far exceed the LSA limits.



On Aug 17, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Bill Naumuk wrote:



[quote] All-

     To sum up the main points-

     1. You can't add vortex generators to achieve LSA compliance  

 because they aren't included in the original design, but are  

 aftermarket.

     2. If you haven't completed and previously registered your plane  

 as Experimental, Owner Built, you can legally change in midstream to  

 the HD wing configuration with the blessing of both the FAA and  

 Zenith.

     There are numerous posts on this subject in the archives.

                                                                                                         Bill

 ---

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

As I have said before, in this provision of the LSA rules, we have a real "Catch 22".  You build an E-AB airplane, fully expecting it to be LSA compliant.  Then in Phase 1, you discover that the stall speed is above allowable for LSA.  You should be able to make corrections to bring it into compliance.  Trouble is that you have had it certified as E-AB.  That essentially establishes the physical configuration of the airplane. It has been flown outside the limitations for LSA.  According to a strict interpretation of the regs, you can not now make the alterations to the airframe to bring it into compliance.  In this case we are talking about adding VGs, but it would also apply to something like propeller pitch that drives the airplane faster that the LSA speed limitations.  Is that bizarre and downright unfair?  I think it is a serious glitch in the regs that really needs to be correct  ed. 

 

 Jay Bannister

 Do not archive

 

   

 

   

 

 --

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

I think Paul is just a little bit confused on the subject. I believe  

you are correct, if VGs give you a low enough stall speed to meet the  

LSA rules and every thing else falls within the limits, you're good to  

go. It's your airplane, you built it, you write the POH.

On Aug 17, 2009, at 4:48 PM, cherring wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >

 I think I am correct that adding VG's before the original AW Cert  

 would help because it would (hopefully) allow the plane to meet the  

 LSA stall speed limit. It isn't the VG's themselves that make it  

 compliant or not, it is the stall speed, which is what it is as  

 determined during initial flight testing. Agreed, adding them later  

 does not allow a plane to meet LSA it is has been previously flown  

 outside of the criteria.

 Not sure what you mean by "aftermarket" - do you mean after the  

 original A/W?

>>>>>>>

 "1. You can't add vortex generators to achieve LSA compliance  

 because they aren't included in the original design, but are  

 aftermarket. "

-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

As long as your final POH reflects the proper limitations, how is the  

FAA going to know whether or not  you had to make some minor  

adjustments during phase 1 flight testing to meet them?



On Aug 17, 2009, at 5:37 PM, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   As I have said before, in this provision of the LSA rules, we have a  

 real "Catch 22".  You build an E-AB airplane, fully expecting it to  

 be LSA compliant.  Then in Phase 1, you discover that the stall  

 speed is above allowable for LSA.  You should be able to make  

 corrections to bring it into compliance.  Trouble is that you have  

 had it certified as E-AB.  That essentially establishes the physical  

 configuration of the airplane. It has been flown outside the  

 limitations for LSA.  According to a strict interpretation of the  

 regs, you can not now make the alterations to the airframe to bring  

 it into compliance.  In this case we are talking about adding VGs,  

 but it would also apply to something like propeller pitch that  

 drives the airplane faster that the LSA speed limitations.  Is that  

 bizarre and downright unfair?  I think it is a serious glitch in the  

 regs that really needs to be correct ed.



 Jay Bannister

 Do not archive


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

Hi Jay,



I think you are taking this a little bit too literally.



For legal purposes, the only thing that matters is what appears on 

paper.  If your POH says your plane meets the details of the LSA 

requirements then it does.  You will not find an FAA inspector 

chasing you around to see if your plane stalls at 45 KCAS or 46.



There is a special provision on the propeller pitch question called 

maximum continuous power.    If your plane goes a little too fast for 

the LSA spec and you want it to meet the spec then all you need to do 

is reduce the defined maximum continuous power for your 

plane.  Again, it is what is documented on paper that counts.  If the 

documents indicate it meets the required performance specs then it does.



The case of an existing HDS is a special one.  If it has been 

documented as having a stall speed too high for the LSA definition 

then the show is over for that plane.



For any model plane, it doesn't matter what sort of airworthiness 

certificate you have.  It can be E-AB or E-LSA or any other thing you 

can manage.  If it meets the LSA definition it can be operated under 

the Sport Pilot limits.



Paul

XL awaiting engineering changes

At 03:37 PM 8/17/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  As I have said before, in this provision of the LSA rules, we have a 

real "Catch 22".  You build an E-AB airplane, fully expecting it to 

be LSA compliant.  Then in Phase 1, you discover that the stall 

speed is above allowable for LSA.  You should be able to make 

corrections to bring it into compliance.  Trouble is that you have 

had it certified as E-AB.  That essentially establishes the physical 

configuration of the airplane. It has been flown outside the 

limitations for LSA.  According to a strict interpretation of the 

regs, you can not now make the alterations to the airframe to bring 

it into compliance.  In this case we are talking about adding VGs, 

but it would also apply to something like propeller pitch that 

drives the airplane faster that the LSA speed limitations.  Is that 

bizarre and downright unfair?  I think it is a serious glitch in the 

regs that really needs to be correct ed.



Jay Bannister

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

Bryan,

 

 You are right, but remember, I said "STRICT interpretation of the regs".  There are obviously ways around it; but I still think the regs need to change to keep everything on the up and up, whether the FAA knows about it or not.

 

 Jay Bannister

 Do not archive

 

   

 

   

 

 --

cherring

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 5
Location: NC

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:02 am Post subject: Re: 601HDS to LSA

That's pretty much what the FAA told me. Just don't make a YouTube video of yourself in your "LSA" plane flying around at 150 MPH. They did notice when one guy did that.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You will not find an FAA inspector chasing you around to see if your plane stalls at 45 KCAS or 46.

daberti(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:05 am Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

Why people beat  themselves to death over this subject when you have organizations "out there"  that have already defined aircraft that meet the definition of aircraft that a  Sport Pilot  can fly?  They already list "Experimental Zenith 601" as  acceptable.  Not HD or HDS or XL...just Zenith 601.  Agree with them,  and FLY!

  

 Dave

  

 Flown in the  Rockies, Desert SW, all the plains states west of the Mississippi and all in my  lowly 601 HD!

likely_lsa.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

likely_lsa.pdf

Filesize:

233.29 KB

Downloaded:

4558 Time(s)

naumuk(at)windstream.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

All-

    Aftermarket was a poor choice of words; after the initial A/W inspection 

is more accurate.

     As I said, the question of VGs has come up many times before, there is 

definitely a Catch 22 as the LSA regs apply to the HDS, and the whole mess 

is as clear as mud.

    Years ago I contacted EAA Technical as to whether you could build both 

sets of wings and register the same airframe to HD/HDS performance 

parameters and they said no. I also asked if I could add VGs to an HDS wing 

to achieve LSA performance and they said no. I'm not sure whether I 

specified the addition of VGs would be made before or after the Phase I 

testing.

    I suggest that the way to resolve this debate is to contact EAA 

Technical and find out whether you're allowed to add VGs to an HDS wing 

BEFORE Phase I testing, so I'm going to do just that and will post the 

response.

                                                                             

                Bill

---

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

On Monday 17 August 2009 17:37, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    As I have said before, in this provision of the LSA rules, we have a real

 "Catch 22".? You build an E-AB airplane, fully expecting it to be LSA

 compliant.? Then in Phase 1, you discover that the stall speed is above

 allowable for LSA.? You should be able to make corrections to bring it into

 compliance.? Trouble is that you have had it certified as E-AB.? That

 essentially establishes the physical configuration of the airplane. It has

 been flown outside the limitations for LSA.? According to a strict

 interpretation of the regs, you can not now make the alterations to the

 airframe to bring it into compliance.? In this case we are talking about

 adding VGs, but it would also apply to something like propeller pitch that

 drives the airplane faster that the LSA speed limitations.? Is that bizarre

 and downright unfair?? I think it is a serious glitch in the regs that

 really needs to be corrected.


	


I think it's easy to forget that Part 23, AC43, etc etc have evolved over many 

years. A lot of refinment has occurred to reflect the problems in these 

documents. The LSA regs are relatively recent, and have had little 

opportunity for real world feedback. As this happens, I would expect 

clarification to occur in the LSA regs.



Another factor is that, like a lot of other FAA regs, the onus is on the pilot 

in command to insure that the aircraft he/she if flying meets FAA regs. That 

seems, if anything, to be more true than usual with the LSA. It's the 

responsibility of the PIC to know that the aircraft being flown meets LSA 

requirements.



I have a little problem with the word "certificated" as used above. EAB 

aircraft are not necessarily certificated in the usual sense of the word. A 

type certificated aircraft has a published stall speed, etc, which 

establishes it does or does not meet LSA requirements. The FAA does not allow 

modification of these aircraft to meet LSA.



But there is no type certificate for EAB. Does this mean you can change it 

later to meet LSA requirements? It seems fuzzy to me. Perhaps there will be 

clarification later, although we may be better off without the 

clarification. 

-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

=============================================

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:27 am Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

 	  Quote: 	
		  Jim,



My airplane has an airworthiness certificate.  I guess it is a matter of 

semantics; but to me, it is certified (not type certified).



Jay Bannister

Do not archive

I have a little problem with the word "certificated" as used above. EAB 

aircraft are not necessarily certificated in the usual sense of the word. A 

type certificated aircraft has a published stall speed, etc, which 

establishes it does or does not meet LSA requirements. The FAA does not allow 

modification of these aircraft to meet LSA.



But there is no type certificate for EAB. Does this mean you can change it 

later to meet LSA requirements? It seems fuzzy to me. Perhaps there will be 

clarification later, although we may be better off without the 

clarification. 

-- 



	
 

      Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com 

  [quote][b]

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

Hi Jim,



I agree with all your comments.  Indeed, I want to take your thoughts 

a few steps further.



The Sport Pilot and Light Sport Aircraft rules have been incredibly 

successful.  This is different from many other attempts to create new 

pilots (e.g. Recreational Pilot) and aircraft (e.g. 

ultralight).  Some of the previous attempts have seen limited success 

such as the part 103 ultralights, but even those didn't have a 

significant impact on the National Airspace System or General 

Aviation.  The SP/LSA rules have had a huge impact on aircraft sales 

and pilot licenses and will undoubtedly continue to do so.  All you 

need to see to be sure of this is the 100 new aircraft makes/models 

available as factory new aircraft in the last few years.



After a few months flying an S-LSA I can tell you it gets even more 

complicated to operate these aircraft after you solve the initial 

go/nogo puzzle.  For example, my Tecnam Echo Super has a ground 

adjustable propeller.  The question comes up of who has the authority 

to adjust the pitch on this propeller.  The answer is not at all 

clear.  Is this routine preventive maintenance or a minor or major 

aircraft change?  As a licensed pilot with no A&P or repairman 

certificate I asked several knowledgeable A&Ps whether I could 

legally change the pitch on this prop.  I got a different answer from 

each person I asked.  This is not a listed preventive maintenance 

activity, so it is not definitely OK for me to do this.  It is also a 

relatively minor thing to do and might be done before each flight to 

tailor the propeller to the mission at hand.  The most reasonable 

answer I got was if it isn't written in the aircraft logs it didn't happen.



Given the unusual success of the new SP/LSA rules I am sure you are 

right, Jim, that we will see many refinements in these 

rules.  Eventually, nearly all the questions will have clear 

answers.  For now, my advice to all is to be careful and worry a lot 

more about safety and rational thinking than whether you might 

exactly meet all the FAA rules or not.



Paul

XL awaiting engineering changes.

At 10:02 AM 8/18/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I think it's easy to forget that Part 23, AC43, etc etc have evolved 

over many

years. A lot of refinment has occurred to reflect the problems in these

documents. The LSA regs are relatively recent, and have had little

opportunity for real world feedback. As this happens, I would expect

clarification to occur in the LSA regs.



Another factor is that, like a lot of other FAA regs, the onus is on 

the pilot

in command to insure that the aircraft he/she if flying meets FAA regs. That

seems, if anything, to be more true than usual with the LSA. It's the

responsibility of the PIC to know that the aircraft being flown meets LSA

requirements.

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: 601HDS to LSA

On Tuesday 18 August 2009 12:25, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Jim,



 My airplane has an airworthiness certificate.  I guess it is a matter of

 semantics; but to me, it is certified (not type certified).


	


My understanding of a distinction here is that the airworthiness certificate 

doesn't say anything about the performance. It says the plane appears to be 

constructed properly.



A type certificate goes further in that it says the plane was constructed in 

accordance with the specification associated with the type certificate, and 

will perform as described there. That ties it to speeds, etc etc.



Yes, they are both certificates, but their meaning is distinct. Usually, when 

someone talks about a certificated aircraft, I think it is taken to mean a 

type certificated aircraft.



In the LSA world, where legality is tied to performance, I don't think the 

airworthiness certificate defines it as an LSA. That appears to become 

dependent on the pilot. If the pilot knows that during testing, the aircraft 

did not meet LSA requirements, he/she is responsible for this.



Of course, if the aircraft has a type certificate, then the performance 

defined for the type certificate would indicate if the plane qualifies as an 

LSA or not.



.and with all this, I'm going to get off my soap box, and hide back in my 

shop, before someone starts throwing tomatoes...



-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

=============================================

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum