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New Brakes and a few Qs

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WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: New Brakes and a few Qs

First I would like to use this as a place to publicly thank Jon McBean for his help and fast working on this one.  I decided I wanted to simply replace a large chunk of my brake system because I could not track down why one side of my brakes did not work and I am taking my check ride in 2 weekends.  After talking to him I decided to upgrade the whole setup with new masters, a remote reservoir, and upgraded calipers.  I am happy with the decision and he was able to hook me up with some parts in new-used condition.



So now I have some questions about brakes since I don't have any manuals on how to install these things although it seems pretty easy to simply disassemble and reassemble.  But no harm in asking;



1. I see that all the fittings are wrapped with teflon, is there a specific "aviation grade" type of tape I need to use or can I use what I have sitting in the garage?



2. There is no tape on the compression end of the fittings but one of them has also leaked, so was that side just not sealed well or should there be teflon tape on the compression fittings as well?



3. Is there torque values to shoot for or do I just snug this stuff up real well?



4. I have noticed that due to the geometry of the master cylinders and the petals that the master is compressed about 1/4" at it's maximum extension, there is no way around this.  will this have any impedance on the master filling up when released?



Thanks for the info guys, and thanks again Jon.



James

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_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: New Brakes and a few Qs

Hi James,

If you are a helicopter pilot so was I, but not military.

Who's the brake Mfg?

This is the stuff you should be using on brake fittings for the tapered thread side (Loctite 567, listed below). The compression side leaks should be removed, trim the tube back about 1/4 - 3/8" and use a new compression nut. I hope they used the right compression fitting to start with. Nothing gets put on a compression fitting like Teflon or sealant. That's the whole idea behind the fitting itself. It should not be the same compression fitting as you would use at home on water lines.

You really shouldn't be using Teflon tape. It doesn't seal as well as the Loctite and can break off and get in the brake system. I have never had a leak with the Loctite mentioned above. 

Snug the fittings up, but don't get crazy over tightening them. Only enough so they can't unscrew or leak.

If your brakes are Matco's the 1/4" compressed master cylinder rod can absolutely make a difference. Try the brakes if they stop and work ok then your home free, but on many Matco master cylinders a 1/4" can make a difference. The rod on them needs to come all the way out or the porting inside for the fluid doesn't work correctly, but when you try them you will know right away if it is effecting your brakes.



Loctite® 567™ PST® Thread Sealant; 50ML

 

Loctite® 567™ PST® Thread Sealant withstands temperatures to 400°F with excellent solvent resistance. Locks and seals tapered pipe threads and fittings, including high pressure applications. Disassembles with hand tools.

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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: New Brakes and a few Qs

My thoughts below.  Assuming the brake parts to be Matco.



 	  Quote: 	
		   1. I see that all the fittings are wrapped with teflon, is there a 

 specific "aviation grade" type of tape I need to use or can I use what I 

 have sitting in the garage?


	


I have always used the hardware store variety on fittings - except fuel 

fittings which were sealed with Fuel Lube.



 	  Quote: 	
		   2. There is no tape on the compression end of the fittings but one of them 

 has also leaked, so was that side just not sealed well or should there be 

 teflon tape on the compression fittings as well?


	


I think what I would do here is to order a new nut  for the leaking fitting 

and trim a quarter inch or so of the tube to get a fresh face on the male 

fitting.



 	  Quote: 	
		   3. Is there torque values to shoot for or do I just snug this stuff up 

 real well?


	


Can't help here as I have always tightened by feel.



 	  Quote: 	
		   4. I have noticed that due to the geometry of the master cylinders and the 

 petals that the master is compressed about 1/4" at it's maximum extension, 

 there is no way around this.  will this have any impedance on the master 

 filling up when released?


	


Can't say for sure about the ability of the master cylinder to fill on 

release, but I did cut the end of the threaded rod off to get better 

geometry with the brake pedal.  The rod is a hard alloy, but I found that a 

new die cut the threads fine.  As I recall it is a 1/4 - 20 thread.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks for the info guys, and thanks again Jon.



 James



 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 Just about ready to take my check ride.





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 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 58583#258583

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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:17 am Post subject: Re: New Brakes and a few Qs

 	  Quote: 	
		  2. There is no tape on the compression end of the fittings but one of them has also leaked, so was that side just not sealed well or should there be teflon tape on the compression fittings as well?



3. Is there torque values to shoot for or do I just snug this stuff up real well? 	




The compression fitting ferrule technically should be used only once.  They are probably the type with the compression ferrule captive in the compression nut.  They are inexpensive.



I admit I have reused some.  The key is probably that they were not over tightened on the first use.  A general rule is hand tight plus one full turn. My builder's manual says, "Just tight enough that the tubing cannot be pulled from the fitting with a firm (but not fierce) tug".

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_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: New Brakes and a few Qs

So here is the follow up since I installed the new brakes and flew yesterday and today, doing a LOT of landings.  First of all, HOLY COW does having brakes make all the difference in the world!  I was able to get to full power while standing on the brakes and really do some short take offs.  Yesterday with 2 aboard I could get off right at the numbers (about 250 feet) and today flying solo I could take off in the length of a runway marker (right about 150 feet).  Landings were also a lot nicer since I did not have to worry as much about whether the rudder was going through that blanketed area behind the wing which has gotten my attention a few times before.  Ultimately, just knowing I would have more directional control once on the ground gave me that extra confidence on my approaches and let me have a bit more fun.  Using full flaps, a lot of elevator, and enough throttle to just keep off the ground I was able to fly down the runway at 2 feet at an IAS of about 25 mph, with a 7-10 kt head wind this is a lot like hover taxiing.



On the install; I reused all the compression fittings that came off the old stuff and there appears to be no issues.  I tightened everything up snug with a crescent  wrench and no leaks so far.  I mounted the reservoir at the top of the fire wall and the two feeder tubes cross behind the pedals.  I have found that a 1 1/2 oz marinade injector is just enough fluid to fill from the bottom and get almost to the reservoir so bubbles were no issue.



So happy happy joy joy, and next week is my check ride.  Thanks for the help guys.



James

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_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:17 am Post subject: Re: New Brakes and a few Qs

It's nice to hear a report of good news James.



  	  Quote: 	
		  while standing on the brakes 	




Due to the design there is a lot of torque/twist on the right pedal assembly when breaking hard with both feet.  There have been a few of them break.  Go easy on em especially if the pedals have not been reinforced.

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Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

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