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Tip tanks

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millstrj(at)ozemail.com.a
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: Tip tanks

I would like to know how anybody has plumbed tip tanks to the mains. Any photo's or even where and how would be a great help thanks.



Trevor. 80605

WPAerial(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: Tip tanks

Just wonder why u want tip tanks? Sure no fun being in the air that long.



do not archive



Jerry Wilken

albany Oregon

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: Tip tanks

WPAerial(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Just wonder why u want tip tanks? Sure no fun being in the air that long.



do not archive



Jerry Wilken

albany Oregon




	


Who are you asking? 



The easy answer for me is the ability to 'tanker' fuel, not to stay in 

the air longer. The ability to take a typical ~3 hr trip & return 

without refueling could easily save me $30-$50. Anyone who uses auto 

fuel or bases their plane where they have their own avgas tank can save 

$1/gal or more for each gallon they don't have to buy 'on the road'.



Charlie

der_Jagdflieger(at)prodig
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: Tip tanks

Jerry, I would have to agree with Charlie.  My RV-6A was

constructed using one additional bay in each wing for fuel,

giving it 27 gallons per side or 54 gallons total.  It also lets

me make many round trip flights without refueling, and yet

always land with IFR fuel reserves remaining. 



One of the benefits of living at Hidden Valley Airpark (5TX0)

is our 100LL fuel co-op, where we pay just $.06 per gallon

over the cost of the gasoline (and our 79 members use a

lot of fuel each month).  Typically, I've found that equates

to about half the cost of purchasing it away from the airpark.



Howard Walrath,   EAA Life Member 93116

owner of RV-6A N55HW     Flying     465 hours



---

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:55 am Post subject: Tip tanks

I've done the plumbing - not flying yet.  Johansen tanks purchased from Vans - plumbed in to the outboard bay of the main tank with a check valve.



Zap me offline and I'll send some photos....I recently sent out the same photos to someone else.....



Ralph



--

wstucklen1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: Tip Tanks

Ok, I've got the tip tanks installed and flying. What I'm finding is

that I'm overflowing the main tank vents (Van's standard main tank vent

implementation) in flight when all tanks have been filled. I confirmed

that the tip tanks can flow fuel to partially filled main tanks OK. But

when all the tanks were filled, gas poured out the main tank vents while

in flight (actually emptied both tip tanks...). Blue stains all over the

belly of the plane, and obvious gas smell while in flight (probably

coming in through the flap extension holes....).

  The main tank vents have 45* bevels facing into the airflow (towards

the front of the plane, per Van's plans). They are located just behind

the firewall (per Van's plans). The tip tanks have the 1/4" tube vent

bent into the airflow.

  I've installed 1/4" tubing extending 2" down from the belly of the

plane and bent 90* into the airflow on the main tank vents. That has

stopped the main tank venting (when all tanks have been filled) while in

flight. But it now appears that the fuel is not moving from the tip

tanks to the main tanks while in flight (when I inspected the main tanks

level on the ground, both were down about 2" - both tanks had been

selected individually while in flight - and the tip tanks were not down

significantly).

  This problem seems to be a mis-balancing of the vent pressures between

the tip tank and the main tank. It makes me question why there shouldn't

be just one vent for BOTH the main and tip tank on each side.... Has

anyone had to resort to this technique?

  Has anybody else had this problem? Is so, what was your solution?

  I'll be at Sun 'N Fun on 4/7 - 4/8 but will be commuting back and

forth to the Daytona area each day. I'd like to compare notes with

anyone that has tip tanks installed....

 

Fred Stucklen

RV-6A  N926RV

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject: Tip Tanks

Fred,



Are you using check valves to prevent the fuel from going from the mains to 

the tips?  If not, the single vent scenario would work for you - otherwise 

you could pressurize the mains if your only vent was in the tips.



I've been fretting this scenario too - my initial thoughts were to use just 

enough of a vent to the mains to prevent the outflowing that you are 

experiencing.  I also have my plumbing with a slight incline upward to my 

check valve so it is the high point in that part of the system.  I'll need 

pressure to get the fuel to go from the tips to the mains.



Don't know if it works yet....I'm just getting started on firewall foreward.



Ralph

---

wstucklen1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: Tip Tanks

I've installed the check valves per the plans from Jon. I'm thinking

now that taking the check valve out (&replacing it with a union),

capping off the original main tank vent, and only using the tip tank

vent for both tip and main tanks. 

   The problem with the dual vent method (Jon's approach) is one of

balancing the pressure equally on both vents. If the main vent pressure

is higher than the tip tank vent pressure, the tip tanks won't drain

properly in flight. If the main tank vent pressure is less than the tip

tank vent pressure (by at least the "head" within the main tank vent

line rise) then the tip tank vent pressure pushes the fuel out the main

tank vent (and once it starts, a siphoning action will maintain the

flow).... Evidently, that is a valid possibility as I lost 18 gals of

fuel from the tip tanks out the main tank vents within a 20 minute

flight. The belly of the plane was quite "blue".....

  If the tip tank is the ONLY vent for both main & tip tank (by

replacing the check valve with a union), the fuel would run freely to

the main tank (but at some reduced flow rate). Any excess pressure

buildup in the main (while on a hot ramp, or a slip condition in flight,

or an uneven parking condition) would push fuel outwards to the tip

tank. I guess there would be a possibility of not being able to get the

fuel back into the main tank as quickly as it is needed when the main

tank was near empty. That might lead to a fuel starvation issue. I would

think that this would not happen in straight & level flight, only under

abnormal conditions. Would the behavior of this type of fuel system be

acceptable for all realms of normal utility class flight? Big

question..... that can only be resolved through testing or others

experiences.....Would parking on a slanted ramp (where the tip was lower

than the main) move all the fuel to the tip, and could that lead to a

fuel starvation issue if one were to take off with that low tank

selected? Probably.... Is it a real threat (because the highest level

tank should have been selected prior to takeoff...)? Good

questions....(are these "real" safety issues????)

  As long as the main tank and tip tank are separated with a check

valve, the main tank requires a vent. Otherwise, it would not have a

method to vent excessive pressures while sitting on a hot ramp.

  Jon eluded to the use of an electric solenoid in his plans (but warned

that it's use would cause slower fuel transfers). This would also be a

doable solution, but changes the overall timing of fuel transfer.

Instead of emptying the tip tanks first, the mains would have to be run

down to a level where they would accept the full tip tank quantity. Tip

tank vent pressure would definitely have to be higher than the main tank

vent pressure, otherwise, the tips would never empty.

   I'm also exploring the idea of BOTH tanks being vented to the SAME

vent.  There are two possible solutions, both requiring another 1/4"

vent line in the wings. The main tanks could be vented to the tips (is

this any different than removing the check valve??) or the tip tanks

could be vented to the existing main tank vent..

    I guess this is why I've asked the question as to how successful

others have been with this installation.....Have there been any fuel

problems in any other installations? Has anyone really looked at the

problem?

   I sure wish that Jon was monitoring this list.... Maybe he could

comment on how his system should work....

  I'm not sure what I'm going to try next. Right now, with the main tank

vent pressure greater than the tip tank vent pressure, I'm not loosing

any fuel. The tip tanks are not usable in flight, but will drain into

the mains once on the ground.

 

Fred Stucklen

RV-6A  N926RV

545 Hrs second offender...

 

 

Subject:	     	 Re: Tip Tanks	

From:	     	 Ralph E. Capen (

<mailto:recapen(at)earthlink.net?subject=Re:%20Tip%20Tanks&replyto=003201c6

5124$4fc438d0$0a00a8c0(at)CAPENFAMILY.ORG> recapen(at)earthlink.net)	

Date:	     	 Sun Mar 26 - 2:33 PM	


<mailto:recapen(at)earthlink.net?subject=Re:%20Tip%20Tanks&replyto=003201c6

5124$4fc438d0$0a00a8c0(at)CAPENFAMILY.ORG> >



Fred,



Are you using check valves to prevent the fuel from going from the mains

to 



the tips?  If not, the single vent scenario would work for you -

otherwise 



you could pressurize the mains if your only vent was in the tips.



I've been fretting this scenario too - my initial thoughts were to use

just 



enough of a vent to the mains to prevent the outflowing that you are 



experiencing.  I also have my plumbing with a slight incline upward to

my 



check valve so it is the high point in that part of the system.  I'll

need 



pressure to get the fuel to go from the tips to the mains.



Don't know if it works yet....I'm just getting started on firewall

foreward.



Ralph

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: Tip Tanks

Fred Stucklen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



   Ok, I've got the tip tanks installed and flying. What I'm finding is

that I'm overflowing the main tank vents (Van's standard main tank vent

implementation) in flight when all tanks have been filled. I confirmed

that the tip tanks can flow fuel to partially filled main tanks OK. But

when all the tanks were filled, gas poured out the main tank vents while

in flight (actually emptied both tip tanks...). Blue stains all over the

belly of the plane, and obvious gas smell while in flight (probably

coming in through the flap extension holes....).

  The main tank vents have 45* bevels facing into the airflow (towards

the front of the plane, per Van's plans). They are located just behind

the firewall (per Van's plans). The tip tanks have the 1/4" tube vent

bent into the airflow.

  I've installed 1/4" tubing extending 2" down from the belly of the

plane and bent 90* into the airflow on the main tank vents. That has

stopped the main tank venting (when all tanks have been filled) while in

flight. But it now appears that the fuel is not moving from the tip

tanks to the main tanks while in flight (when I inspected the main tanks

level on the ground, both were down about 2" - both tanks had been

selected individually while in flight - and the tip tanks were not down

significantly).

  This problem seems to be a mis-balancing of the vent pressures between

the tip tank and the main tank. It makes me question why there shouldn't

be just one vent for BOTH the main and tip tank on each side.... Has

anyone had to resort to this technique?

  Has anybody else had this problem? Is so, what was your solution?

  I'll be at Sun 'N Fun on 4/7 - 4/8 but will be commuting back and

forth to the Daytona area each day. I'd like to compare notes with

anyone that has tip tanks installed....

 

Fred Stucklen

RV-6A  N926RV




	


I'm still trying to decide how to set up my aux tanks, so I can't offer 

any ideas I've tested. Having said that, here are some thoughts.



I'm not fond of using only gravity feed for the aux because with my 

leading edge tanks, the aux won't drain completely until the mains are 

down to maybe 5 gallons. I want the aux tanks empty early, rather than 

late in the flight to get back to 'normal' handling as soon as possible. 

Your tip tanks may empty earlier, with more fall to the mains.



Some ultralite guys have had success by plumbing their mains vent 

directly to the aux feed & using the aux vent as the only vent for the 

entire 'system'. (You could achieve the same effect by simply sealing 

the mains vent.) The mains then suck the aux tanks dry while still 

almost full. Obviously, the filler cap needs to seal air tight for this 

to work. This idea is tempting, but I hate to change anything on the 

original vent/flow path as designed into the plane if I don't have to.



Highest on my list at the moment is to feed the aux tanks to a 2nd Van's 

type selector, which would feed the unused port on the existing 

selector. It sounds more complex at 1st, but has the advantage of 

leaving everything in the original design totally stock except the plug 

in that last port of the original valve. It might (emphasize *might*) be 

possible to eliminate the 2nd selector by feeding both aux tanks to a 

small sump in the belly to feed the original selector. The sump *might* 

keep the engine from sucking air when (not if) one aux tank empties 

faster than the other. Hopefully, this potential problem would only be 

encountered at altitude in cruise flight & recovery would be quick & 

only mildly upholstery-pinching.



Email me off list if you're interested & my description leaves some 

holes that need filling.



Charlie

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: Tip Tanks

Those guys who are selling the tubular aux tanks plumb the aux tanks

through facet fuel pumps which act as check valves. When you've burned

enough out of the main, you refill it from the aux using the electric

pump which has a light that comes on after a set amount of time to

remind you to turn it off. Just another idea.



Pax,



Ed Holyoke



--

StephenN570Z

Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 7

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Tip tanks

I am about to pick up my JJ tip tanks from Vans but have the wings finished & plumbed for them. I have copied the installation of a RV6 owner in Australia who has successfully used this system. The only vent in the system is in the tip tank. The dihedral of the wing along with the 1 -2 psi from the forward facing vent pressurise the tip which forces fuel from the tips into the outboard leading edge tank, this in turn feeds the inboard leading edge tanks. Andair check valves prevent any back flow & most of the time you are flying with the aux tanks empty. As soon as there is space in the mains fuel is drawn into them using a combination of negative pressure from the fuel pump, dihedral & + pressure from the fuel vent. Simple, effective, no pumps to go wrong & completely automatic. Thats what I am hoping anyway. My only concern is that a blocked vent will cut of fuel, but that will happen in the standard system. One thing I am considering is whether to run an aux vent feed to the tips from the HP side of the plenum or the warm side of the cowling as any ice build up on the vent will spoil my day. I have written up the install of the ob leading edge tanks if anyone wants it. Oh by the way Ken  Scott saw what I was doing a few months back & thought the idea of o/b l/e tanks are a bad idea.  



hth Stephen

N570Z

Fuse almost finished

klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: Tip tanks

Dear Stephen,



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>Oh by the way Ken Scott saw what I was doing a few months back & thought the idea of o/b l/e tanks are a bad idea.<<<


	


Why did Ken Scott think it was a bad idea???



do not archive

  ---

Bob Barrow

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 29

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: Tip tanks

Hi Stephen, I would imagine that if you fully fill your inboard tank(s) and 

you have no vent in them then  the fuel will have nowhere to go when it 

expands while the plane is sitting out in the sun. If it is stopped from 

going back to the tips by an Andair one-way valve the expansion could quite 

probably do serious damage to your inboard tank(s). The way to overcome this 

would be to eliminate the one-way valve..but I do not recommend that either 

as it might allow fuel to run back to the tips in flight. I think you might 

need a vent in the inboard tank(s). I'd put it where the plans say....plenty 

of warm air to keep it ice free in that location so it would probably be a 

safer bet than one vent out on the tip.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "StephenN570Z" <stephen.j.reyn(at)gmail.com>

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Tip tanks

Date: Sat,  1 Apr 2006 08:50:24 -0800






I am about to pick up my JJ tip tanks from Vans but have the wings finished 

& plumbed for them. I have copied the installation of a RV6 owner in 

Australia who has successfully used this system. The only vent in the 

system is in the tip tank. The dihedral of the wing along with the 1 -2 psi 

from the forward facing vent pressurise the tip which forces fuel from the 

tips into the outboard leading edge tank, this in turn feeds the inboard 

leading edge tanks. Andair check valves prevent any back flow & most of the 

time you are flying with the aux tanks empty. As soon as there is space in 

the mains fuel is drawn into them using a combination of negative pressure 

from the fuel pump, dihedral & + pressure from the fuel vent. Simple, 

effective, no pumps to go wrong & completely automatic. Thats what I am 

hoping anyway. My only concern is that a blocked vent will cut of fuel, but 

that will happen in the standard system. One thing I am considering is 

whether to run an aux vent feed to !

  the tips from the HP side of the plenum or the warm side of the cowling 

as any ice build up on the vent will spoil my day. I have written up the 

install of the ob leading edge tanks if anyone wants it. Oh by the way Ken  

Scott saw what I was doing a few months back & thought the idea of o/b l/e 

tanks are a bad idea.



hth Stephen

N570Z

Fuse almost finished





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=25772#25772


	


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Bob Barrow

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 29

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: Tip tanks

I contacted Vans 18 months ago and they said then that they were no longer 

selling the Jon Johanson tip tanks. They said they had decided to stop 

selling them because they had not tested them. So I am very surprised that 

you are getting them from Vans now. Perhaps you are buying them directly 

from Jon but they are being trans-shipped via Vans. Would you please advise.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "StephenN570Z" <stephen.j.reyn(at)gmail.com>

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Tip tanks

Date: Sat,  1 Apr 2006 08:50:24 -0800






I am about to pick up my JJ tip tanks from Vans but have the wings finished 

& plumbed for them. I have copied the installation of a RV6 owner in 

Australia who has successfully used this system. The only vent in the 

system is in the tip tank. The dihedral of the wing along with the 1 -2 psi 

from the forward facing vent pressurise the tip which forces fuel from the 

tips into the outboard leading edge tank, this in turn feeds the inboard 

leading edge tanks. Andair check valves prevent any back flow & most of the 

time you are flying with the aux tanks empty. As soon as there is space in 

the mains fuel is drawn into them using a combination of negative pressure 

from the fuel pump, dihedral & + pressure from the fuel vent. Simple, 

effective, no pumps to go wrong & completely automatic. Thats what I am 

hoping anyway. My only concern is that a blocked vent will cut of fuel, but 

that will happen in the standard system. One thing I am considering is 

whether to run an aux vent feed to !

  the tips from the HP side of the plenum or the warm side of the cowling 

as any ice build up on the vent will spoil my day. I have written up the 

install of the ob leading edge tanks if anyone wants it. Oh by the way Ken  

Scott saw what I was doing a few months back & thought the idea of o/b l/e 

tanks are a bad idea.



hth Stephen

N570Z

Fuse almost finished





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=25772#25772


	


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StephenN570Z

Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 7

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Tip tanks

G'day Bob, the problem with having a vent in the mains is that it cancels out the + pressure from the tip vent. The alt vent I was thinking about would be plumbed into the tip tank via a valve in the cockpit, haven't made up my mind yet but will have to decide soon as am about to close up the wings. You are right about Vans no longer stocking Jons tanks, I am picking them up from Vans but that is only the shipping point, thought that would be easier & I am there so often picking up parts I have screwed up. 



As for the earlier comnent asking why KS thought the o/b l/e tanks were a bad idea, he didn't really say, just muttered darkly & asked me why I didn't just fit a ferry tank. I told him that I preferred to have the fuel out on the wing & wanted the space in the cabin for life raft etc. Anyway he shook his head & walked off. KK also had a look but said nothing, I can understand their position, lawyer paranoia reigns supreme here, but I'm Australian I don't go in for that BS, they aren't to know that though. you pays your money.....



Stephen

N570Z

mannanj(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: Tip tanks

Have you looked into the way it's done on a Bonanza, Piper Commanche or 

similar single engine plane with tip tanks? Why re-invent the wheel when you 

can "go to school" on certified products with years of imperical testing. 

I'm sure that fuel selector valves, etc. are available.



"Shine"  Mannan Thomason

RV-8  N1 61RL  "Thursday's Child"  Painfully close to flying



---

lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: Tip tanks

If you don't mind me asking, what does Jon charge for his tip tank set up?

   

  Darrell





		

---------------------------------

StephenN570Z

Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 7

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Tip tanks

G'day Darrell, Jon charges $3200 which is bloody expensive, still as long as he spends it on aeroplanes & doesn't waste it who am I to comment. Actually I have now met Jon a few times & he has been real helpful over the years so I feel if there is anyway I can assist him then am happy to do so.



"Shine" I have talked to owners of certified planes but do not know the specifics of how the Mooney et all work, do you have any experience you can share?



ta Stephen

N570Z Fuse

wstucklen1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: Tip tanks

I agree. Having a check valve between the two tanks with no other

way to vent the pressure from the main tank (when in the hot sun) will

cause bad things to happen to your tanks.

 

  I've just spent the last weekend modifying my JJ tanks such that the

tip tank is the ONLY vent. I have removed the check valve and replaced

it with a union.  The main tank vent has been capped off. Main tank

expansion is handled by allowing the fuel to move to the tip tank. Fuel

flow is not restricted to the engine (can still get 30GPH), and there is

no fuel pressure loss to the engine (can't see any difference from just

running on the original main tank with vent...). Because of the position

of the main tank outside rib feed point (from the tip tank), there is no

way to completely empty the main tank into the tip. And as log as one

always selects the fullest tank for tankoff, the chances of loosing fuel

pressure on takeoff are extremely remote.

 

  I have also tested, on the ground with jacks, and in the air, for

abnormal tilt conditions that I thought would have caused flow from the

main tanks to the tip tanks. After 3 hours at a 30* bank angle (big

jacks!) there wasn't an appreciable amount of additional fuel in the tip

tanks unless I loosened the main tank caps and let in air. The pickup

did un-port as expected, but this happens even in Vans original design.

(Never slip into the selected tank!) The tip tanks drain into the mains

as expected while in flight.... With a single vent system, there is

never the possibility of different tank vent pressures while in flight.

 

  The ONLY issue I have with this approach is tank vent problems in

icing conditions. Van selected the belly behind the warm cowl air for a

reason. Vents out on the wing tips will definitely ice up in even slight

icing conditions. Having both tanks vented this way means one must stay

away from ALL icing conditions (you should anyways). But for now, during

the Spring and into the summer months, it should be OK. (I fly a lot of

hard IFR, and occasionally do get traces of ice during the winter

months, so I need a more robust venting method...)

 

  So, later this summer, I'm going to remove the main tanks again, and

run a 1/4" aluminum line between the tip tank vent (put in a "T") and

the original main tank vent (another "T"). In this manner, both tanks

vents will be at exactly the same pressure, allowing only gravity to

move the fuel from the tip tanks to the main tanks. I'll also reinstall

the check valve between the tip tank and the main tank...... Just

because JJ wanted it that way.....

 

Fred Stucklen

RV-6A  N926RV

 

 

Time: 	04:43:30 PM PST US	

From: 	"Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow10(at)hotmail.com>	

Subject: 	Re: Tip tanks	

      

      

<bobbarrow10(at)hotmail.com>

      

      Hi Stephen, I would imagine that if you fully fill your inboard

tank(s) and 

      you have no vent in them then  the fuel will have nowhere to go

when it 

      expands while the plane is sitting out in the sun. If it is

stopped from 

      going back to the tips by an Andair one-way valve the expansion

could quite 

      probably do serious damage to your inboard tank(s). The way to

overcome this 

      would be to eliminate the one-way valve..but I do not recommend

that either 

      as it might allow fuel to run back to the tips in flight. I think

you might 

      need a vent in the inboard tank(s). I'd put it where the plans

say....plenty 

      of warm air to keep it ice free in that location so it would

probably be a 

      safer bet than one vent out on the tip.

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