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icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:55 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Pat,



Please point me to where i can find more info about these planes. The only one's i know of with the names Spitfire, Hurricane, and ME 109 were designed well over 60 years ago. 



Our understanding of aerodynamics has changed substantially in the last 10 years, let alone 60+.

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  Isn`t it surprising in view of all the furore aboout the superiority of one 

wing tip over another that  three top designers designed three different 

planes, with different wing tips to do the same job.



Spitfire Elliptical

Hurricane.  Round

Me 109 Square



Maybe is isn`t that important after all.



Pat

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:56 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

Just wondering how relevant comparisons to high performance WWll fighters is to the Kolb wing. They're flying at 250 kts plus, 3 to 4 times that of the Kolb (at least). A performance enhancement in those types might not produce any measurable result in the Kolb even if it does work.



Surely it's more a factor of high wing loading and high speed that  the difference's show significant results. However, I can remember the DC3 with its rounded wingtip was very heavy on the ailerons. The Basler conversions (where they put on two PT6 turboprops etc, instead of the P&W 1830 radials) changed the rounded wingtip shape to a raked design and the aileron control improved a lot (or so I'm told) but the speed stayed similar (maybe a little faster and probably due to the higher HP not the wingtip), so nicer handling was the result.



Interesting thread anyway.



David.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: Wingtips

At 10:21 AM 8/30/09 +0100, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



It isn't if you have an excess of power and don't have to pay for the 

fuel.>>



Hi Jack,

thats part of it of course but surely each of the designers was striving for 

the highest efficiency he could get for other reasons.



Cheers




	


Pat. 



I agree.  The design end goal sets the definition of efficiency.  If you 

want to climb faster, you an add wing and/or increase engine power.  

Etc.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: Wingtips

Please point me to where i can find more info about these planes. The only 

one's i know of with the names Spitfire, Hurricane, and ME 109 were designed 

well over 60 years ago. 



Our understanding of aerodynamics has changed substantially in the last 10 

years, let alone 60+.>>



Hi,

You are quite right , they all came into service around 1935/7. In the 

Battle of Britain the Hawker Hurricane shot down more German planes than the 

Supermarine Spitfire although the Spit is the icon of the time.

The Spitfire was often deployed against the fighter escort as its top speed 

was 355 at 19000ft with a ceiling of 34000ft against the Hurricane 316mph at 

17500ft ceiling of 32000ft  while the Hurricane attacked the bombers.

Their armament was the same. 8/303 mg.

The Me bf109E  did 355mph at 18000ft with a ceiling of 35000ft and had 

2/7.9mm cannons and 2/20mmcannons

The Spitfire evolved through 24 developments beforer produiction ended in 

`47 finally achieving 454mph at26000ft with a ceiling of around 44000ft plus 

the Seafire for the Navy and the Spiteful.



I was wrong when I said in reply to another post that the clip wing version 

was introduced as dog fighting moved higher. In fact it was the reverse. In 

`43 the Clip wing was developed when a low level variant was made to carry 

2/.250lb or 1/500lb bomb.



The Hurricane did not produce so many variants but the Hurri-bomber was 

quite succesful.



No doubt aerodynamics have progressed since then but my point was that three 

top designers building  similar planes to do the same job at the same time 

all produced different wingtips so the differences could not have been that 

great. I am sure that  the designers of the Sopwiths and Neuports and 

Fokkers of the previous war didn`t know anything about the aerodynamics of 

wingtips but Mitchell, Camm etc certainly did.



In fact I dont think that the aerodynamics of fighter wings have much 

bearing on the aerodynamics of wings at the sort of speeds we fly.  We would 

be better off studying the design of the sails of high speed sailing boats 

which approximate much more closely the behaviour of air round our wings.



I bet you are glad you asked.



Pat

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: Wingtips

Pat: With all due respect to the old fighters, you might want to look at the Wikipedia entry for the A-10 Warthog.  The wing description is very similar to a Kolb, and the photos show a wingtip that looks like the ones John H. tested at the factory.  Very informative reading.

  

 do not archive

  

                                                 Bill Sullivan

                                                 Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                 FS 447 without the Gatling in the belly

 [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  Isn`t it surprising in view of all the furore aboout the superiority of one 

wing tip over another that  three top designers designed three different 

planes, with different wing tips to do the same job.



Spitfire Elliptical

Hurricane.  Round

Me 109 Square



Maybe is isn`t that important after all.



Pat 	




Pat,



Given your method of looking at what has been designed to determine if wingtips are important or not, you very selectively cite 3 fighter aircraft designed almost 70 years ago.    Your logic of looking at other aircraft is good, but you should be looking at modern aircraft that are more similar in performance to our Kolbs.  A huge number of general aviation and Light Sport Aircraft have been designed with modern technology, and the vast majorty have gone to the trouble to put aerodynamically designed wingtips on them.  Even though aerodynamic wingtips add cost and make production more difficult, they still do it.  This is done for a very good reason...



The Kolb Factory even saw the importance of wingtips and put a new wingtip on the MK III Xtra.   The current design Kolb wingtip sucks, they are prone to breaking over time when built to plans, and are aerodynamically a waste.   The current Kolb wingtips may be easy to build, but I would rather spend a little more time building a good wingtip that made my plane fly and perform better than just wasting 3 feet of my available wing area on nothing.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:41 am Post subject: Wingtips

The design end goal sets the definition of efficiency.  If you

want to climb faster, you an add wing and/or increase engine power.  >>



Hi Jack,



 well ! Mitchell certainly didn`t design the Spitfire wing for ease of 

production.



Pat

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: Wingtips

I had been watching to get more information on wing tips for the Mk 111c but the bickering just got to be to much.

 I had put drooped win tips on my Challenger 11 CWS and it made a world of differance and have been thinking about installing them on the Mk 111 also. After reading a little between the in fighting I am looking at other oppions also plus easer to build and install. Where can I find more information on the different wing tips and results and comments of the types?

  

 Ross R

 SW Florida

 Mk 111c/912

  

 

 

  Date: Mon C 31 Aug 2009 08:24:31 -0700

From: williamtsullivan(at)att.net

Subject: Re:Wingtips

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



       Pat: With all due respect to the old fighters C you might want to look at the Wikipedia entry for the A-10 Warthog.  The wing description is very similar to a Kolb C and the photos show a wingtip that looks like the ones John H. tested at the factory.  Very informative reading.

  

 do not archive

  

                                                 Bill Sullivan

                                                 Windsor Locks C Ct.

                                                 FS 447 without the Gatling in the belly

[quote]



ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ronics.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:41 am Post subject: Wingtips

you very selectively cite 3 fighter aircraft designed almost 70 years ago. 

 >>



Not consciously selective. Just 3 planes designed at the same time to do the 

same job and I happened to be familiar with their silhouette through 

aircraft identificaion classes. As planes stopped being so interesting 

somewhere around the Canberra and the Hunter I probably couldn`t tell the 

different in silhouette between a Mig and Sabre or anything more up to date.



Re the new shape tip on the Kolb tip. Challenger did the same thing just 

before I sold mine. I would like to know how much was increased effeciency 

and how much was cosmetic. I reckon its like spoilers on cars. Useful on 

racing cars but a dead loss on a normal vehicle. They look nice but don`t 

achieve anything but no one will admit it and take them off.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:44 am Post subject: Wingtips

Very informative reading.>>

  

 Thanks Bill. Will do.  I didn`t want to make a  federal case out of it, just an observation.

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips

I know very little about the subject if anything.

I have read that drooped wing tips can improve STOL characteristics and the penalty is spin recovery.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Wingtips

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  . 



Challenger did the same thing just 

before I sold mine. I would like to know how much was increased effeciency 

and how much was cosmetic. I reckon its like spoilers on cars. Useful on 

racing cars but a dead loss on a normal vehicle. They look nice but don`t 

achieve anything but no one will admit it and take them off.



Cheers



Pat 	




Properly designed wingtips are not anything like Spoilers on Cars.  Almost every airplane in production today has properly designed wingtips on them, how do you compare that to a few sports cars with spoilers ???  This is not even close to valid comparison.  



You ask about the Challenger, and yet we just got a report on that...



 	  smlplanet(at)msn.com wrote: 	
		  



drooped win tips on myï¿½Challengerï¿½11 CWS and it made a world of differance and have been thinking about installing them on the Mk 111 also.



 Ross R

	




How did you ignore this report on the improved wingtips on a Challenger just a few post back ?  Just the same way you have ignored the mountains of evidence that show the benefit of properly designed wingtips on GA and LSA airplanes.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:23 am Post subject: Wingtips

Almost every airplane in production today has properly designed wingtips on 

them, how do you compare that to a few sports cars with spoilers ???  This 

is not even close to valid comparison.  >>



Oh dear! Oh dear!,



You do take things seriously don`t you. Loosen up

. I made the comparison because the difference in speeds between a 747 or 

even maybe a Comanche and our average flying speed is  about the same as the 

difference in speed of a Formulae One car and the usual 80 mph of a sports 

car.   I am sure that at 300 mph  a designer tip is very efficient and well 

worth having. At 60/70 mph I m not convinced.



I `ignored` the evidence of one report on the improvement in Challenger 

handling with new tips for the very simple reason that I didn`t read it. I 

am sorry, but I do have other interests and I find there are other things in 

life more important than reading every post on the list.



Have a good day



Pat

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:54 am Post subject: Wingtips

Pat, You know the NACA report (#140) was interesting in that it compared a blunt ended wing to two with a wingtip and found wing tips were better. We have a guy in our EAA chapter who has an Airbike. Blunt wingtips haven't stopped him from flying it over 42,000 miles. It may not be the most efficient, but it sure is well traveled. 



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 7:19 AM, pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>

  

 Almost every airplane in production today has properly designed wingtips on them, how do you compare that to a few sports cars with spoilers ???  This is not even close to valid comparison.  >>

 

 Oh dear! Oh dear!,

 

 You do take things seriously don`t you. Loosen up

 . I made the comparison because the difference in speeds between a 747 or even maybe a Comanche and our average flying speed is  about the same as the difference in speed of a Formulae One car and the usual 80 mph of a sports car.   I am sure that at 300 mph  a designer tip is very efficient and well worth having. At 60/70 mph I m not convinced.

  

 I `ignored` the evidence of one report on the improvement in Challenger handling with new tips for the very simple reason that I didn`t read it. I am sorry, but I do have other interests and I find there are other things in life more important than reading every post on the list.

  

 Have a good day

 

 Pat

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 [b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:18 am Post subject: Wingtips

You know the NACA report (#140) was interesting in  that it compared a

blunt ended wing to two with a wingtip and found wing tips  were better.>>

  

 Hi Rick,

  

 they well may be. I have only questioned whether,  with the sort of flying which most of us do, it  makes much  difference.  If I was going to put in the sort of mileage that the Hauck  does, or your friend with the Airbike(not familiar with that one) then I should  probably be looking for the best performance possible. Doing flights around the  block on a nice evening  or a couple of hundred miles for a fly in (which  is the sort of flying I do) I am not going to break into a sweat about putting  in an extra  extra gallon of fuel now and then or worry about the length of  time I can fly hands off..

 "Frankly my dear, I don`t give a damn"

  I haven`t said that one or the other wing tip  is better or worse My plane flies pretty well, more or less as it came out of  the box and I am not going to spend time in a freezing garage in the winter or  waste flying time in the summer by trying to `improve` it.

 Some guys get their kicks flying, some by pulling  the plane to pieces and experimenting with this and that. Thats great. We all  love flying in our different ways. There is nothing to fall out with each  other  about.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: Wingtips

Pat, I love to fly, but I am budget limited. When I'm out of gas money, I tinker. As far as wingtips go, I have so many other places to look for improvement, it's pretty far down on the list. Not to mention that they require recovering the wings which is far outside my monetary capabilities right now. So far my list looks like this;

Wheel pants
Cowling
Gap seal
Tailcone
All intersections
Recover and fare fuselageIn my book those are the big hitters for drag reduction on my airplane and I have the materials to carry them out with the exception of the last. If I want to really dream there's a four stroke engine, but that, too, is a ways down the road.

 



Rick



On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 12:56 PM, pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 [quote]       You know the NACA report (#140) was interesting in  that it compared a

blunt ended wing to two with a wingtip and found wing tips  were better.>>

  

 Hi Rick,

  

 they well may be. I have only questioned whether,  with the sort of flying which most of us do, it  makes much  difference.  If I was going to put in the sort of mileage that the Hauck  does, or your friend with the Airbike(not familiar with that one) then I should  probably be looking for the best performance possible. Doing flights around the  block on a nice evening  or a couple of hundred miles for a fly in (which  is the sort of flying I do) I am not going to break into a sweat about putting  in an extra  extra gallon of fuel now and then or worry about the length of  time I can fly hands off..

 "Frankly my dear, I don`t give a damn"

  I haven`t said that one or the other wing tip  is better or worse My plane flies pretty well, more or less as it came out of  the box and I am not going to spend time in a freezing garage in the winter or  waste flying time in the summer by trying to `improve` it.

 Some guys get their kicks flying, some by pulling  the plane to pieces and experimenting with this and that. Thats great. We all  love flying in our different ways. There is nothing to fall out with each  other  about.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

    	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: Wingtips

.So far my list looks like this;

  

    1. Wheel pants

   2.  Cowling

   3. Gap seal

   4. Tailcone

    5. All intersections

   6. Recover and fare  fuselage>>

  

 Hi Rick,

 I think you are absolutely right. All those things  would produce better results than friggin` around with wing tips (No JP I have  not run any tests. Just an opinion. OK?)

  

 Unfortunately with my personal weight all  those things would put the plane outside the microlight weight limit here,  except the gap seals..

 When I had my glider (19 metre Jantar) all gaps  were sealed with sticky tape before flight. Wing roots and every other gap I  could find. Of course it was a very slippery machine and everyone kidded  themselves that all this stuff `improved things. (Maybe it did) but on a draggy  machine like the Kolb I doubt it would achieve much except maybe cut down a bit  of noise.

 The wheel pants certainly improved the appearance  though. But its a b*****r getting the mud out of them in winter.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

 



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