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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:12 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 12:48:45 AM

Subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwhitlow" <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net (ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net)>

Here's the link to the mods

http://www.zenithair.com/news/ntsb-astm-4-09a.html

OK  That was faster than I expected.  

I do have sympathy for what Chris said in his answer to Question 2 about non-disclosure per NTSB rules and he mentions they are being sued as reasons they have not spoken much on the matter. I was un-aware anyone had started legal action.

OK so a few of my questions have  been addressed well, but a few have gotten more cloudy

I note the EXTENSIVE spar mods both in the wing and in the center section, and do wonder about how much weight is getting put in here??  

The drawings are great but has this been done on an actual 601?? are there pictures yet??  I know this is hot off the presses but have they actually replaced these parts on a completed aircraft?  

And of course the hard to pin down "is it flutter or not issue?"  OK so we beef it up to prevent it. Great!  Chris addresses it in Question 8 that yes Weights are now going to be used.  But unless I'm looking through it  I see no drawings of the weights. I have the LAA drawings but I really would like it if a set would come from Zenith and the people who know the aircraft.  Are we supposed to use the LAA drawings???  

I wonder how long it will be before we can get the upgrade kits in hand??  I  never did the final close on my wings so I'm pretty good there but some of the spar work is gonna be a pain in the butt on a mostly finished fuselage..

Small price to pay I suppose...

Larry Whitlow

601XL Jabiru 3300 Sensenich Composite prop

N69102 (Reserved)

90% done with the first build

0% done with the mods

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271 href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/" target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com;   * HomebuiltHELP

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

How  about the poor bastard thats been flying for years ,and hsa a ton of money and time in his aircraft,   I found about the the FAA notice Sunday one day after it was put out .I also found a fix from zenith the same day that they, are already doing it ? Joe N101HD/601xl RAM

   From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 12:48:45 AM

Subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwhitlow" <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net (ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net)>

Here's the link to the mods

http://www.zenithair.com/news/ntsb-astm-4-09a.html

OK  That was faster than I expected.  

I do have sympathy for what Chris said in his answer to Question 2 about non-disclosure per NTSB rules and he mentions they are being sued as reasons they have not spoken much on the matter. I was un-aware anyone had started legal action.

OK so a few of my questions have  been addressed well, but a few have gotten more cloudy

I note the EXTENSIVE spar mods both in the wing and in the center section, and do wonder about how much weight is getting put in here??  

The drawings are great but has this been done on an actual 601?? are there pictures yet??  I know this is hot off the presses but have they actually replaced these parts on a completed aircraft?  

And of course the hard to pin down "is it flutter or not issue?"  OK so we beef it up to prevent it. Great!  Chris addresses it in Question 8 that yes Weights are now going to be used.  But unless I'm looking through it  I see no drawings of the weights. I have the LAA drawings but I really would like it if a set would come from Zenith and the people who know the aircraft.  Are we supposed to use the LAA drawings???  

I wonder how long it will be before we can get the upgrade kits in hand??  I  never did the final close on my wings so I'm pretty good there but some of the spar work is gonna be a pain in the butt on a mostly finished fuselage..

Small price to pay I suppose...

Larry Whitlow

601XL Jabiru 3300 Sensenich Composite prop

N69102 (Reserved)

90% done with the first build

0% done with the mods

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271 href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/" target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com;   * HomebuiltHELP

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Knowing several DARs, I would agree with you. The DAR gives you an  airworthy certificate because he doesn't think what you built will kill you. The  paperwork is set by reg, and that's a go-no-go situation. But if the DAR,  whose name is going on the certificate, doesn't like what he sees, for any  reason at all, his judgement comes into play. There are nitpickers who want to  see the torque on every screw and bolt, and those who work off general  impressions, but all are aware that they are in effect, co-signing the check you  wrote.

  

 Paul R

 [quote]   ---

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

On Saturday 07 November 2009 19:14, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am proud of the FAA to have the courage to issue the Bulletin.    They

 visited me on the last Sunday in August and, although my airplane flew

 after that, I have not flown it out of respect for them as well as respect

 for Jay, whose signature was on the line.   I donâ€™t expect my aircraft to

 fly again until it comes out of its Conditional Inspection in early April.



 I am currently working on a pulse jet powered flying motorcycle.   :O)


	


Really? While I've been waiting for things to develop, I've been designing a 

low wing helicopter. I'll be offering plans anydaynow, and hope to introduce 

it at a seminar at Sun 'N Fun. 



I haven't quite got it flying yet, but it does a heck of a job as a lawnmower!

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:00 am Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

On Tuesday 10 November 2009 10:00, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 ouch...



 :O)



 Jim, do you have your wings sealed up like many of us on the list?


	


Yes. My preliminary examination of the draft modifications drawings makes me 

believe that it will be necessary to remove the upper wing skins, and open 

the ailerons.



 	  Quote: 	
		   How are we going to inspect the torque on those AN3/AN4 spar cap bolts? 

 With my airplane sitting outside, it will have hundreds of hours of stress

 on those connections each year just sitting in the wind...


	


I haven't gotten that far in my evaluation. I get the impression that some of 

these solutions were put in rush mode, so they could be published. I note 

that the drawings are marked "draft." (I used to mark mine "preliminary rough 

draft," in the hopes people would get the message that they were for 

discussion, not release.)



Probably as we evaluate some of these things, and find things that just don't 

work, they need to be communicated back to Zenith, so the draft drawings get 

corrected.



I suppose part of my annoyance is that I just riveted one of the rear seats in 

place, and one of the front wing uprights. To that extent, I'm probably over 

reacting. But I think some annoyance is justified.

-- 



=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

GLJSOJ1

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 82
Location: Chesapeake, Virginia

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Just got off the phone with Zenith.  They are doing the mods on their aircraft now and hope to post more information next week.  Sebastian stated that they would have the modifications ready as well as drawing and instructions for them.  My one question is with the doubler on the wing root how will it fit into the center spar box???  He assured me it will fit, but very tight!



With my plane flying I ask about how the parts would go out.  He said they will work with people to get them out to who has the greatest need first IE flying first, and builders next as each is ready.



I looked over the modification at lunch today and it will be a lot of work, but nothing impossible.



Guess I won't be starting my second plane for a while!

_________________
601XL N676L FLYING PHASE I
CHESAPEAKE VA

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:04 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Jim, have you done anything with a weed-eater ? Ican't find one that's worth adamm!   Joe N101HD/601XL

   From: Jim Belcher <z601a(at)anemicaardvark.com>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 9:36:56 AM

Subject: Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim Belcher <z601a(at)anemicaardvark.com (z601a(at)anemicaardvark.com)>

On Saturday 07 November 2009 19:14, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>

 I am proud of the FAA to have the courage to issue the Bulletin.    They

 visited me on the last Sunday in August and, although my airplane flew

  after that, I have not flown it out of respect for them as well as respect

 for Jay, whose signature was on the line.  I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t expect my aircraft to

 fly again until it comes out of its Conditional Inspection in early April.

 I am currently working on a pulse jet powered flying motorcycle.  :O)

Really? While I've been waiting for things to develop, I've been designing a 

low wing helicopter. I'll be offering plans anydaynow, and hope to introduce 

it at a seminar at Sun 'N Fun. 

I haven't quite got it flying yet, but it does a heck of a job as a lawnmower!

====================

                Do not archive.

====================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                   A&P/IA

    Retired aerospace technical manager

    Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

        Do not drink and derive.

===A href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/" target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.cop;    * HomebuiltHELP                     &nbsp===================

  [quote][b]

Zenair_Mathieu

Joined: 11 Nov 2009
Posts: 10
Location: Midland

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: Q&A from Zenair - Chris Heintz

To all 601XL and 650 builders and aircraft owners. If you have a specific question regarding the upgrade, I have started a Q&A on the Zenith.aero site. Post your question there I will consult with Chris Heintz so that we can give you the best possible answer. Please be specific about your questions.

Mathieu

http://www.zenith.aero/forum/topics/qa-safety-alert-and-saib

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

<sarcasm> What a GREAT way to ensure open communication with ZAC </sarcasm>. I take it your goal is to spend time in court instead of flying?



-- Craig



--

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Hi Craig,



My vote goes to give Sabrina a little room to maneuver here.  She has 

already said she has no intention to sue anybody.  Still, I know she 

is really upset about the fact that nobody found out about the 

upcoming massive upgrade until the fatal accident last week.  Perhaps 

some warning would have kept some people she cares about on the ground . . .



Let's see what the response to her question is before we throw any 

stones at anybody.



Paul

XL ready to order upgrade

At 05:18 PM 11/11/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  What a GREAT way to ensure open communication with ZAC </sarcasm>. I 

take it your goal is to spend time in court instead of flying?

service(at)eipdiesel.com.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:19 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Paul,

Manoeuvre towards what?

I agree with Craig, questions such a Sabrina's serve no purpose except

to waste peoples time. If impending litigation is not the intension then

don't ask the question, if litigation is the intension then this is not

the place to ask such a question.

If you and Sabrina are suggesting an announcement by ZAC to state that

they were releasing an upgrade would in some way have encouraged those

who were still flying to cease doing so, I think this is a stretch. ZAC

did say they were reviewing the design. All persons operating these

aircraft would have to by now be aware of the accidents, if they then

decided to continue flying then they do so knowing the risk.



Kind regards,

Greg Cox

Sydney, Australia

--

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Hi Greg,



Thanks for the comment.  I agree with you and I think we all agree 

that litigation is not a path that gains anything for anybody except 

the lawyers.  On the other hand, there are other things at stake here 

besides money.



When Chris announced he recommended a reduction in cruise speed and 

gross weight around the time of Oshkosh, I took that to mean he 

acknowledged a real need for engineering changes on the XL.  Perhaps 

I was the only one in the world who took it that way.  His position 

then and now also included the notion that there was nothing wrong 

with the design.



Some people would like to know when the big guys (Chris, FAA, NTSB, 

etc.) decided to go ahead with development of detailed design of 

extensive nature for this plane.  Even I was surprised at the extent 

of the changes to the wing spars and spar carry-through that were 

published Saturday.  I expected a competent engineering effort to 

"Fix" the aileron mass balance and control sensitivity questions.  We 

already have seen one pretty good design for the aileron change from 

the LAA folks, and I heard somewhere that the sensitivity problem 

would be fixed with a couple of springs or some such change.



What seems to have taken place is that the FAA folks along with Chris 

and AMD decided to do extensive changes to the spar structure but 

they didn't really want to tell the world about that effort.  It took 

another in-flight break-up to get the announcement made.  I don't 

think anybody is naive enough to miss the fact that the accident 

happened on Friday and the announcement came on Saturday.



I think Sabrina is interested in digging into this particular aspect 

of the whole mess.  I am not quite as curious as she is, but I also 

would like to get some idea of how the thought process and decision 

process took place.  This is not about litigation.  It is about 

getting a better understanding of what sort of people we are dealing with.



I think litigation would be a waste of time and money in this 

case.  There are no deep pockets for the lawyers to dip their greasy 

fingers into.  The only real outcome of extensive litigation would be 

the demise of the Heintz family businesses, and I don't think any of 

us really wants that outcome.  It would hurt us all.  Indeed I don't 

think there is any real liability from a common sense point of 

view.  I believe everyone in this story had at least reasonable if 

not noble intentions.



Many of us are angry for a lot of different but very good 

reasons.  Sabrina's point of view is about why people were allowed to 

happily go along believing this whole mess was just about pilot 

errors and maintenance problems.  She believed that line and feels 

betrayed.  Other people are angry because of the personal financial 

impacts.  I am just annoyed by all the personal attacks I had to 

endure to reach the outcome I wanted.



'nuff said . . .



Paul

XL ready to order upgrades.



At 08:18 PM 11/11/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Paul,

Manoeuvre towards what?

I agree with Craig, questions such a Sabrina's serve no purpose except

to waste peoples time. If impending litigation is not the intension then

don't ask the question, if litigation is the intension then this is not

the place to ask such a question.

If you and Sabrina are suggesting an announcement by ZAC to state that

they were releasing an upgrade would in some way have encouraged those

who were still flying to cease doing so, I think this is a stretch. ZAC

did say they were reviewing the design. All persons operating these

aircraft would have to by now be aware of the accidents, if they then

decided to continue flying then they do so knowing the risk.



Kind regards,

Greg Cox

Sydney, Australia

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:23 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Funny how the guys who know the most (AMD and Zenith in the USA, Canada, Europe) continue to fly in these terribly flawed aircraft.



If you won't fly planes from companies that listen to their lawyers then which company will you select?



-- Craig



--

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:02 am; edited 2 times in total

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

I'm confused by what you want. You don't want to fly in a plane without some

sort of upgrade. But you don't want the proposed upgrade. Since "light" is

in quotes I'm assuming you aren't worried about projected weight (reported

at 5-6 pounds by Sebastian via Rick Lindstrom). How will you know how much

is enough?



Anyway I don't think there will be another supported and tested solution.

Chris's Q&A seems clear to me. He wants to stop the damage to his companies,

family and customers by attacking all points at once. If you want the

"lightest" solution then there is the original design (although you may have

trouble getting insurance). If you know what solution you want then you can

do it yourself but I don't see it being blessed or tested by Zenith. The

last thing they want is multiple solutions and more FUD. For myself I have

already trusted my life to Chris's designs and will continue to do so.



-- Craig



--

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:14 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

As the designer, engineer, builder and the one who got tons of credit for bringing the Sabrina 1 to an actual flying machine it is you who are responsible for calculating the correct set of V speeds,  G forces and gross weights for your unique Sabrina 1. The numbers you are looking for that Zenith used when you bought your kit should still be right there in the builder manual you read while building your Sabrina 1. If they did not satisfy you then maybe you should not have attemped this avenue of recreation..... 

This advise has been brought to you by the world renowned law firm of,,, 

DEWEY, CHEATUM & HOWE.      <G>  you know,,, the "honest guys" 

do not archive.

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

aussiech650

Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 25
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:22 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Sabrina,

If you don't agree with CH's upgrade, then design and carry out your own

upgrade then spend your money testing your design. If yours is an

improvement on CH's then you should be able to market it and sell it to

other builders without any problems.



Regards,

Greg Cox

Zenith Zodiac CH650

Sydney, Australia



--

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:06 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Hi Ben,



I would ask you and the other critics to give Sabrina a little room 

to work here.



Perhaps you are unaware of the simple truth that her reasons for 

building a plane are quite different from the rest of us.  She didn't 

do it for recreation.  It was vocational training.  For her, this 

fiasco with the accidents and all the people involved in dealing with 

the fallout is part of that training.



Since she almost let the cat out of the bag with her last comment, I 

will "Spill the beans" on a few pieces of her personal 

situation.  Perhaps then you folks will leave her alone and let her 

work her way through this whole mess.  I think we all will benefit 

from the results.



Sabrina's comment about loving her legal team is literally 

true.  Both of her parents are lawyers.  (Neither one is a tort lawyer.)



With all of her accomplishments it is easy for most of us to forget 

that she couldn't fly her own plane until recently because she was 

too young to solo in the USA.  Even now after having her plane flying 

for a year or two she is still only 16 years old.



I personally feel lucky to have run across Sabrina in this (sometimes 

nasty) little world of Zodiac builders.  I think she will be very 

famous in a few years.  Indeed, she already is.  I expect her 

universe will be a lot larger than the one the rest of us have lived 

in.  Her current plan is to be a space ship designer when she grows up.



Paul

XL ready for upgrades

Unrepentant Sabrina fan





At 11:12 PM 11/11/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  The numbers you are looking for that Zenith used when you bought 

your kit should still be right there in the builder manual you read 

while building your Sabrina 1. If they did not satisfy you then 

maybe you should not have attemped this avenue of recreation.....

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:15 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Hi Paul. First, for the record I admire Sabrina alot for what she has built and you for your stance in a rather difficult period for 601 builders and the guys and gals at Zenith.  

1- Most of us know both her parents are lawyers. I believe that fact came out years ago when she advised us of her Corvette gift from her attorney parents when she was like 12. <G> 

2- Her posts have always enlightened me with the degree of knowledge she appears to have. In my mind if she is going to build a spaceship she will have absolutely no problem flipping her Sabrina 1 over, weighing it down with sandbags and load testing it to her satisfaction..She will have to test her spacecraft to alot higher degree so this is a perfect "educational" step for her in life.  If it happens to fail and ruin her plane mommy and daddy will buy her another one. If it holds up and quantifies CH numbers as to being more then strong enough then her "friends" at the FAA should use that data to recind the current warning document and restore the original specs Zenith used when selling the first several hundred kits. 

3- IF the 601, during her extensive testing shows signs of weakness she can take her design and engineering skills and produce a fix that satisfies CH, the FAA and hopefully all the builders and owners of the 601 XL series. That revenue stream could enable her to buy her own Harley, Corvette and fund her continuing education she will need to bring her spaceship to reality. After all, you, Jay Maynard and most other builder/owners of this series of planes have sunk ALOT of their hard earned money into their dream... She didn't..... 

  

Rant off.   Peace to all, and of course tailwinds on every flight. 

do not archive.

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

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