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Louie928

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Mosier, OR USA

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: I don't understand...

Jim,

Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go ahead and bolt it together sloppy holes and all.





 	  stormyflight(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  

<snip>  Also, hole quality is critical since the bolts don't squish to fill the hole.  My comment was just saying that if done right, it works just as well as a rivet and there should be no tendency to come loose (no re-torquing required).  There are also some non-driven rivets that we use a lot called Hyloks which are set using wrenches. A little pricey at about $5 each, but would definitely do the job.



Jim

_________________
Louis W. Ott

601XL-B Corvair

z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject: I don't understand...

Forgive me for barging into the middle of your conversation, but in my drill 

index, the letter size drills continue on up in diameter to "Z." I would have 

thought the next letter size larger would be "B." 



Or do I totally misunderstand your statement?



On Saturday 05 December 2009 14:34, Louie928 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Jim,

 Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is

 important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely

 ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit

 especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is

 permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size

 larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next

 letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size

 for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the

 next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may

 remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the

 weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin

 wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and

 for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go

 ahead and bolt it together ! sloppy holes and all.


	


=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject: I don't understand...

The next "letter" size drill bit larger than an A3 bolt would be a #12 at 0.189". Letter drill bits start at A (0.234") and go up in size to Z (0.413"). Numbered drill bits start at #1 (0.228") and go down in size to #80 (0.0135").



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Jim,

 Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go ahead and bolt it together !

 sloppy holes and all.


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL, 

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:14 pm Post subject: I don't understand...

Guys

    

   You are making too big a deal out of this. If the hole is sloppy drill it one bolt size bigger. But everyone here has someone close that has a rivet gun so get on the RV list and see if you can find someone to help you set the rivets. After the prep is done it only takes 20 mins to re rivet the spar.  What we are looking for here is the clamping force more than shear. 

    

   Jeff

 

 

 

   --

Louie928

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Mosier, OR USA

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: I don't understand...

I was trying to find a way to judge whether a hole diameter would be too large for a AN3 bolt. Using the AC 43-13 method doesn't exactly work because there is no letter size drill under size A. Carrying over to the same method using number drill sizes as a gauge for acceptable hole size for AN3 bolt should work. Looks like if a #11 drill slides through with clearance, then a AN4 bolt should be used.



 	  z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c wrote: 	
		  Forgive me for barging into the middle of your conversation, but in my drill 

index, the letter size drills continue on up in diameter to "Z." I would have 

thought the next letter size larger would be "B." 



Or do I totally misunderstand your statement?



On Saturday 05 December 2009 14:34, Louie928 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Jim,

 Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is

 important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely

 ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit

 especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is

 permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size

 larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next

 letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size

 for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the

 next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may

 remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the

 weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin

 wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and

 for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go

 ahead and bolt it together ! sloppy holes and all.



	


=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

_________________
Louis W. Ott

601XL-B Corvair

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: I don't understand...

A # 11 will slide thru and a # 10 should be  tight.

  [quote][b]

JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: I don't understand...

There is a number drill that is 0.189 dia, that would be a good fit for an  AN3 bolt.

  

 John  Read

CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300



Phone: 303-648-3261

Fax:  303-648-3262

Cell: 719-494-4567   

  In a message dated 12/5/2009 5:15:50 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,  louieo(at)gorge.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith601-List message posted by: "Louie928" <louieo(at)gorge.net>



I    was trying to find a way to judge whether a hole diameter would be too large    for a AN3 bolt. Using the AC 43-13 method doesn't exactly work because there    is no letter size drill under size A. Carrying over to the same method using    number drill sizes as a gauge for acceptable hole size for AN3 bolt should    work. Looks like if a #11 drill slides through with clearance, then a AN4 bolt    should be used.

z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Forgive me    for barging into the middle of your conversation, but in my drill 

    index, the letter size drills continue on up in diameter to "Z." I would have    

 thought the next letter size larger would be "B." 

 

    Or do I totally misunderstand your statement?

 

 On Saturday 05    December 2009 14:34, Louie928 wrote:

 

 >  

 >    

 >  Jim,

 >  Your point about the criticality    of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is

 >  important and has    been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely

 >     ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt    fit

 >  especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, "    Generally, it is

 >  permissible (to measure the hole) to use    the first-letter size drill size

 >  larger than the nominal    bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next

 >  letter    size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size

    >  for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out    to the

 >  next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here?    Seems like an AN4 bolt may

 >  remove too much of the cap    material, and if very many had to be used the

 >  weight would    increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin

 >     wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole    and

 >  for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this    and should just go

 >  ahead and bolt it together ! sloppy    holes and all.

 > 

 > 

 

    =============================================

                    Do not archive.

    =============================================

                    Jim B Belcher

        BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                         A&P/IA

      Retired aerospace technical    manager

 

      Mathematics and alcohol do not    mix.

          Do not drink and    derive.

    =============================================


	




--------

Louis W.    Ott



601XL beginner Quick Build





Read this topic    online    here:



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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: I don't understand...

3/16  =  .1875   

#12   =   .1890   

 #11   =  .1910   

 #10   =  .1935  



  [quote][b]

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: I don't understand...

do not archive

  

 I'm not a 601 builder, but I drill a lot of holes.  I  measured several AN3 bolts furnished by ZA last night.  Smallest was .187  and the largest was .1885.

  

 One way to help visualize slop is instead of diameter over,  picture how much over per side.  For example, if your hole is .003  oversize, that's .015 of space on each side of the bolt.

  

 And you already know this but......don't just believe the the  size drill you buy will bore the stated size.  Many are poorly ground with  uncentered points.  And your technique makes a difference.  Measure  test holes, not the bits.

  

 A guy came into my plant and asked "how can I make this bit  drill oversize?"  That's easy, let me sharpen it.

  

 I am adding metric diameters to the list below.  They are  available for about the same money,

  

 Regards,

  

 Randy, Las Vegas

  	  Quote: 	
		      

   From:    Afterfxllc(at)aol.com (Afterfxllc(at)aol.com) 

    

    

   4.75 mm = .187



      3/16  =  .1875   

#12   =     .1890

   4.8 mm = .189   

   #11   =  .1910 

   4.9 mm = .1929  

   #10   =  .1935  

   #9  = .196

   5 mm = .1969

    

   Really splitting hairs here.



 	  Quote: 	
		   	
	
   [quote][b]

leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: I don't understand...

Just a minor correction, I'm sure you meant .0015 per side.

Dan



[quote="n4546v(at)mindspring.com"]do not archive

  

 One way to help visualize slop is instead of diameter over,  picture how much over per side.  For example, if your hole is .003  oversize, that's .015 of space on each side of the bolt.



  	  Quote: 	
		      

   From:    Afterfxllc(at)aol.com (Afterfxllc(at)aol.com) 

    

    

   4.75 mm = .187



      3/16  =  .1875   

#12   =     .1890

   4.8 mm = .189   

   #11   =  .1910 

   4.9 mm = .1929  

   #10   =  .1935  

   #9  = .196

   5 mm = .1969

    

   Really splitting hairs here.



 	  Quote: 	
		   	
	
    	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: I don't understand...

Do not archive



Thanks Dan, right you are, .0015 it is!



Randy, Las Vegas

---

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