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GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:33 pm Post subject: Project X Tiger

(1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on the AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired.  In side-by-side testing (on several occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to 1 inch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B.  SO, the first project is to design a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and replace the cowling.  Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass.  Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box getting hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.

  

 

  (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow.  Once the inlet issue is solved the rest is a cake walk.  So, Ned, your wait will be over.

  

 

  (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .  AND . . .  drum roll . . . .  put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger.  Not just any -B1B either.  Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp.  He estimates about 40 more usable hp at 2200 rpm.  Climb should bring a smile to any face.

  

 

  (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.  

  

 

  (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.

  

 

  (6) Wheel pants.  I already have some prototypes being built.  None of this RV-10 stuff either.  Those wheel pants just look wrong.  My plane will be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use existing mounting hardware.

  

 

  (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC.  'nuf said.  

  

 

  Now, if I can get this goddamn Kia to start, I'll have time to work on Larry's plane.

  

 

   [quote][b]

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

Pretty  ambitious project outline you've got going here,  Gary! 

  

 (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air  boxes) on the AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired.  In side-by-side  testing (on several occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will  have up to 1 inch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B.  SO, the first  project is to design a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some  of the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and replace  the cowling.  Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass.   Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box getting  hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.

  

 Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.

 



 (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow.   Once the inlet issue is solved the rest is a cake walk.  So, Ned,  your wait will be over.

 



 Haven't heard the term before.  I assume that is the name for  your new cowling?

  

 (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . .  . .  AND . . .  drum roll . . . .  put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger.   Not just any -B1B either.  Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons  certified at a derated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp.  He  estimates about 40 more usable hp at 2200 rpm.  Climb should bring a smile  to any face.

  

 You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some  time.  Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop?  So will the  STC (with 10:1 pistons) include a CS prop?  Peak HP would be limited to +5%  over stock, or 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right?  Any  concerns about what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and  what the equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR  pistons)?

 



 (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.  

  

 Power goes up closer to 200 hp.

 



 (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the  IO360-B1B.

  

 Less drag, more HP.  But you really need a CS prop to go with  it!  And not the expensive MT prop, either.  A Hartzell Scimitar,  blended airfoil composite blade prop!

 



 (6) Wheel pants.  I already have some prototypes being built.   None of this RV-10 stuff either.  Those wheel pants just look wrong.   My plane will be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's  feasible to use existing mounting hardware.

  

 Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either.  Get rid  of the complex and costly pivot bracket concept!  Most planes land on  asphalt and I've seen enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that  the pivot concept wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.

 



 (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC.  'nuf  said.  

  

 After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a  Mooney 201 does at similar fuel flows.  That would be a hugh  accomplishment!  Roy LoPresti would be proud!

  

 Cliff

  	  Quote: 	
		   	


I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter.We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.SPAMfighion does not have this message.    [quote][b]

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:57 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

Hey Cliff,  

 

  The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."  So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . . 

  

 

  I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop.  The other props are just to outdated.  Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.  

  

 

  As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly not yours.  If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's place.  They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the seventies when low lead/no-lead came along.  Today, you can buy a car with close to 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane.  Fear mongers always irritate me.  Can't blame them though.  Ignorance is bliss.  RIGHT?

  

 

  The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots.  I'm close.

  

 

  

 

 

  --

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:59 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

Please educate the ignorant.  

 Why would it have to be de-rated?  FAA regs regarding High Performance category?

 Just curious...



 

 [quote]>>  3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .  >>  AND . . .  drum roll . . . .  put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger.  Not just any -B1B  >>  either.  Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated RPM >>  to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp.  He estimates about 40 more >>  usable hp at 2200 rpm.  Climb should bring a smile to any face.      [quote][b]

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: Project X Tiger

Will Matthew Broderick's chimpanzees be flying the Project X first flight? 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  	


	


 [quote][b]

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: Project X Tiger

The paperwork involved in increasing horsepower isn't worth the aggravation.  

 

 

  --

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

jamey

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: Project X Tiger

Geeze Cliff, he's planning on you going firstJ



 



Jamey



 



 



From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of

teamgrumman(at)aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:34 AM

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Project X Tiger



 



Hey Cliff,  



 



The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I

thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."

So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . . 



 



I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop.  The other props are just

to outdated.  Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.  



 



As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly

not yours.  If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's

place.  They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the seventies

when low lead/no-lead came along.  Today, you can buy a car with close to

11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane.  Fear mongers always

irritate me.  Can't blame them though.  Ignorance is bliss.  RIGHT?



 



The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots.  I'm close.



 



--

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:10 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

Gary, I think Jaguar is a very good name for the cowling.



But you didn't respond to my question of the CS prop with the IO-360-B1B

(is that the right model #?) engine.  Was that engine certified with a CS

Hartzell prop?  If you don't use that combination won't the FAA give you

real grief (read cost you lots more $$$) about getting something else

STC'd?  There are LOTS of good reasons for going with a CS prop and in the

overall scheem of things what is another $6K additional for a prop

considering the cost of the overall modification, especially when you

consider the benefits?  With all the changes and improvements you are

talking about and the resulting speed gain you are beyond the region where

a fixed prop works very well.  It is to big of a compromise and takeoff

and climb performace suffers if the prop is pitched for cruise conditions.

 Go for the CS prop - don't screw around.



Cliff



[quote] Hey Cliff,

 The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I

 thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."

 So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .

 I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop.  The other props are

 just to outdated.  Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.

 As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly

 not yours.  If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's

 place.  They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the

 seventies when low lead/no-lead came along.  Today, you can buy a car with

 close to 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane.  Fear mongers

 always irritate me.  Can't blame them though.  Ignorance is bliss.  RIGHT?

 The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots.  I'm close.

 --

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. <G>  He

was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be

flying, and I agree.



Cliff



[quote] Geeze Cliff, he's planning on you going firstJ



 Jamey



 From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of

 teamgrumman(at)aol.com

 Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:34 AM

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Project X Tiger



 Hey Cliff,



 The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I

 thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."

 So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .



 I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop.  The other props are

 just

 to outdated.  Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.



 As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly

 not yours.  If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's

 place.  They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the

 seventies

 when low lead/no-lead came along.  Today, you can buy a car with close to

 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane.  Fear mongers always

 irritate me.  Can't blame them though.  Ignorance is bliss.  RIGHT?



 The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots.  I'm close.



 --

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

5% increase in power is allowed without changing the rated HP of the

engine, which would entail a LOT more testing and specifically expensive

noise testing (thanks to the EPA).



Cliff



 	  Quote: 	
		   Please educate the ignorant.

 Why would it have to be de-rated?  FAA regs regarding High

 Performance category?

 Just curious...

  >>  3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . .

 .

  >>  AND . . .  drum roll . . . .  put an IO360-B1B into a

 Tiger.  Not just any -B1B

  >>  either.  Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a

 derated RPM

  >>  to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp.  He estimates about 40 more

  >>  usable hp at 2200 rpm.  Climb should bring a smile to any face.

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

Cliff,

That had to be a typo. I think Gary meant B1E which is a constant  

speed aft facing carb model

Ned



Sent from my iPhone

jamey

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:40 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

I know, just thought it was funny.  I also hope they stick with 100LL until

they have a true drop-in replacement but I'm not as confident.  It really is

small potatoes as far as the big picture is concerned.  That said, if you're

a government agency, it's also a lot easier to cripple the relatively small

community of GA and give yourself a gold star/check+/smiley face than to fix

our electricity and automotive infrastructure which might affect the

majority of the electorate.  Sigh.



I hope you're both right and around for a long time for reasons independent

of avGas.



Best,



Jamey

--

az_gila

Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 99
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

...and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in 

100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action 

about 3 weeks ago.  As a kid, I could see the always burning waste 

gases flame from the refinery from across the river - it's still burning...



I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey" - 

which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the 

route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this 

time.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g  We were even on 

the same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.



Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times, 

and the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester 

ship canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK chemical 

industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries)  The chemical 

industry is the life blood of this area and is fully unionized.



gil A



At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>



I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. <G>  He

was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be

flying, and I agree.



Cliff



...

 > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly

 > not yours.  If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's

 > place.  They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the

 > seventies

 > when low lead/no-lead came along.  Today, you can buy a car with close to

 > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane.  Fear mongers always

 > irritate me.  Can't blame them though.  Ignorance is bliss.  RIGHT?

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

I think our era of time will be looked back upon as quite an illogical  

one.

This "post-modern" philosophy that we experience today, where  

epistomology is characterized by the masses believing that truth is  

known as that which is ascerted by those in power rather than  

determined through evidence, will hopefully end with a quick return to  

true science. Perhaps we will see thus happen and then again have no  

worries about minute quantities  TEL and other political nonsense such  

as man caused global warming. If not we may soon see a return to horse  

driven vehicles and just dream of the days of flying......



Sent from my iPhone



On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:01 AM, Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>  

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 ....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in  

 100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action  

 about 3 weeks ago.  As a kid, I could see the always burning waste  

 gases flame from the refinery from across the river - it's still  

 burning...



 I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey" -  

 which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the  

 route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this  

 time.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g  We were even on  

 the same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.



 Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times,  

 and the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester  

 ship canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK  

 chemical industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries)  The  

 chemical industry is the life blood of this area and is fully  

 unionized.



 gil A



 At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:

> 

> >

>

> I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is.  

> <G>  He

> was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we  

> will be

> flying, and I agree.

>

> Cliff

>

> ...

> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and  

> certainly

> > not yours.  If and when it does, there'll be something else to  

> take it's

> > place.  They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the

> > seventies

> > when low lead/no-lead came along.  Today, you can buy a car with  

> close to

> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane.  Fear mongers  

> always

> > irritate me.  Can't blame them though.  Ignorance is bliss.  RIGHT?

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

The IO360-B1B was used on a Piper Arrow.  It was a CS engine.  The hard part will be getting Hartzell to give up the data for the FAA approval.

 

 

  --

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

Oh, yea, did I say B1B?  OOOps.  B1E.

 

 

  --

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: Project X Tiger

And what's going to happen to their economy when we quit using leaded fuel?



Cliff

---

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: Project X Tiger

The 1967, 68, 69 Arrow had the 180 hp B1E engine and  in 1969 they  added the 200 hp C1C engine (angle valve) and continued  with the B1E for another couple of years.

  

 Cliff 

 [quote]   ---

az_gila

Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 99
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject: Project X Tiger

The TEL portion is an insignificant percentage of the chemical 

industry in that area.



The Romans started it off with salt mining - hence all of the 

Cheshire towns ending in "---wich"



The unions will keep the general chemical industry going as long as 

there is a market.... even if the Conservative party gains power next 

year....:^)



The company web site statement on lead in aviation fuel is here....



http://www.innospecinc.com/octane-additives.html



gil A



At 07:37 PM 12/17/2009, flyv35b wrote:

[quote]



And what's going to happen to their economy when we quit using leaded fuel?



Cliff

---

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: Project X Tiger

They claim to be the only source for TEL.



This raises my curiosity about the source for lead in Chinese  

manufactured toys / paints.



Where does that lead come from?

Ned



Sent from my iPhone



On Dec 17, 2009, at 9:34 PM, Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>  

wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 The TEL portion is an insignificant percentage of the chemical  

 industry in that area.



 The Romans started it off with salt mining - hence all of the  

 Cheshire towns ending in "---wich"



 The unions will keep the general chemical industry going as long as  

 there is a market.... even if the Conservative party gains power  

 next year....:^)



 The company web site statement on lead in aviation fuel is here....



 http://www.innospecinc.com/octane-additives.html



 gil A



 At 07:37 PM 12/17/2009, flyv35b wrote:

> 

> >

>

> And what's going to happen to their economy when we quit using  

> leaded fuel?

>

> Cliff

> ---

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