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dogsbody
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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 Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework |
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Hi folks, I’ve been lurking this group and perusing the archives for a while in my research for my next aircraft project.
I keep coming back to the Jodel D-11, the Davis DA-2a and CH-601 HDS, and the CH-601 design is the only machine of the three which still has any real support (to stave off any questions as to my thoughts regarding the building the older 601 model - I’ve eliminated the XL and 650 off of my list due to heavier gross weight and thus higher power requirements. While definitely related to ‘601 HD/HDS, I consider the XL/650 a different aeroplane from HD/HDS).
Myself: I have past experience with Heintz-type metal construction from many hours spent on a Zenair CH-701 project, and have also reviewed the excellent CH CH601.org website among many others.
After my research, a few Q’s remain unanswered. I sent these questions off to Zenith via their excellent webpage but so far have received no reply (I can well imagine that they have little time for a mere plans-purchase enquiry at this point).
My criteria: Scratch-build, seat two six-foot-two people, use a economical Continental A-75/A-80 engine, have a realistic 100 mph cruise speed and minimum 500 fpm climb rate with aforementioned engine.
My questions to the Zenith601 group:
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Does anyone have any experience with operating a Continental A-75/A-80 in a CH-601, in particular the HDS? I’ve overhauled and currently operate one of these engines in my FlyBaby and nearly have enough parts collected to build up a another. The installed wet-weight of the A-series engine, ready to run with exhaust, mags and intake system, is probably a hair under 200 lbs, probably 40 lbs heavier than a 912 “complete and ready to run”? I have a fair bit of experience with the A-series Continental engines, and can have one ready to fly for a quarter of the price of a new 912 installation;
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Is the A-75/A-80 engine suitable for the HDS airframe? It is on the lower end of the factory published recommended power range for HDS;
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>What kind of realistic cruise could I expect with an A-75/A-80 in the 601 HD and the 601 HDS?
<![if !supportLists]>4. <![endif]>Is Zenith still supporting the “legacy” 601 HD/HDS airframes?
<![if !supportLists]>5. <![endif]>Are there any people out there still embarking on scratch-build HD/HDS projects?
Oh, and one more: are there any Vancouver Island ‘HDS builders or flyers in this group?
Happy New Year,
Drew
Bowers FlyBaby
CF-UFL
[quote][b]
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Drew
FlyBaby CF-UFL
Victoria, BC, Canada |
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework |
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Hi Drew,
I am near the other Vancouver (WA) and have a nearly flying 601xl, so I thought I would give you a quick reply to your questions.
I am not really familiar with the CH601HDS, but I suspect it is not the best choice for a low power project. I would suggest you consider one of the models with larger wings such as the 601HD or (shudder) the 601xl/650. I presume you know about the safety issues with the latter choices. The HDS has a small wing and seems to like higher power than the other models.
I suspect you will get great support in your quest for information if you call Zenith on the phone rather than email. I'm sure Sebastian (the company president) would be happy to talk to you about your goals and how they might fit the 601 line.
Good luck,
Paul
XL waiting for upgrade kit
From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dogsbody
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:02 PM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework
Hi folks, I’ve been lurking this group and perusing the archives for a while in my research for my next aircraft project.
I keep coming back to the Jodel D-11, the Davis DA-2a and CH-601 HDS, and the CH-601 design is the only machine of the three which still has any real support (to stave off any questions as to my thoughts regarding the building the older 601 model - I’ve eliminated the XL and 650 off of my list due to heavier gross weight and thus higher power requirements. While definitely related to ‘601 HD/HDS, I consider the XL/650 a different aeroplane from HD/HDS).
Myself: I have past experience with Heintz-type metal construction from many hours spent on a Zenair CH-701 project, and have also reviewed the excellent CH CH601.org website among many others.
After my research, a few Q’s remain unanswered. I sent these questions off to Zenith via their excellent webpage but so far have received no reply (I can well imagine that they have little time for a mere plans-purchase enquiry at this point).
My criteria: Scratch-build, seat two six-foot-two people, use a economical Continental A-75/A-80 engine, have a realistic 100 mph cruise speed and minimum 500 fpm climb rate with aforementioned engine.
My questions to the Zenith601 group:
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Does anyone have any experience with operating a Continental A-75/A-80 in a CH-601, in particular the HDS? I’ve overhauled and currently operate one of these engines in my FlyBaby and nearly have enough parts collected to build up a another. The installed wet-weight of the A-series engine, ready to run with exhaust, mags and intake system, is probably a hair under 200 lbs, probably 40 lbs heavier than a 912 “complete and ready to run”? I have a fair bit of experience with the A-series Continental engines, and can have one ready to fly for a quarter of the price of a new 912 installation;
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Is the A-75/A-80 engine suitable for the HDS airframe? It is on the lower end of the factory published recommended power range for HDS;
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>What kind of realistic cruise could I expect with an A-75/A-80 in the 601 HD and the 601 HDS?
<![if !supportLists]>4. <![endif]>Is Zenith still supporting the “legacy” 601 HD/HDS airframes?
<![if !supportLists]>5. <![endif]>Are there any people out there still embarking on scratch-build HD/HDS projects?
Oh, and one more: are there any Vancouver Island ‘HDS builders or flyers in this group?
Happy New Year,
Drew
Bowers FlyBaby
CF-UFL | Quote: | | www.aeroelectric.com |
01234567890123456789
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework |
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Hi Drew,
The HDS could be flown with a 80 hp engine, but you'd have to pare down
the weight to a bare minimum. The original HDS and HD flew with this
size engine
but climb performance was/is better in the HD because of the longer
wings. I fly the HDS with a Subaru and can get 1400 fpm with it, still
can't outclimb an HD
with the same engine. Cruise is better, but with 80 hp, you probably
would see 105 or so and 100 or less with the HD. These estimates are
pilot, no passenger.
80 hp would really compromise your performance carrying two large people
and I'd recommend you do the HD if you want to stick with 80 hp engines.
Nothing wrong with 80 hp, but the HDS 23 foot wing would test your
patience in a short grass strip. The HDS is a fine performer when the hp
is closer to the
100 hp Subaru, even with the extra 12 lb radiator etc. But on landing
two large people and the Subaru require a more attentive faster landing.
I was a scratch builder and still field calls from a dozen or more
people that are still building the HDS, some with Corvair and some with
Subaru engines. The good
number of builders flying the HDS still report the aircraft is an
extreme joy to fly with any engine of at least 100 hp. If you're
concerned with fuel, parts prices and
maintenance costs, the Subaru is still a great little engine. It costs
1/3rd the price of the Rotax, is bullet proof and burns 87-octane car
gas with no problems.
If you need more info, you can email me and I'll try to help you get on
with your project if I can. I am a strong advocate of scratch build process
and Zenith aircraft are a pleasure to build that way.
Larry McFarland (Plans built) 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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steerr(at)bellsouth.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:48 am Post subject: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework |
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Just as a point of reference, I fly an HD with the Stratus Subaru
engine. I'm seeing 107 MPH at 4400 engine RPM. Like Larry's HDS, the
HD is an utter joy to fly. I'm not through my flight test period yet,
so haven't flown with two people (or even dead weight in the passenger
seat), but the climb performance is outstanding.
BTW, I'm indebted to Larry and the other builders on this list for all
their help.
Bill
LarryMcFarland wrote:
| Quote: |
<larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Hi Drew,
The HDS could be flown with a 80 hp engine, but you'd have to pare
down the weight to a bare minimum. The original HDS and HD flew with
this size engine
but climb performance was/is better in the HD because of the longer
wings. I fly the HDS with a Subaru and can get 1400 fpm with it, still
can't outclimb an HD
with the same engine. Cruise is better, but with 80 hp, you probably
would see 105 or so and 100 or less with the HD. These estimates are
pilot, no passenger.
80 hp would really compromise your performance carrying two large
people and I'd recommend you do the HD if you want to stick with 80 hp
engines.
Nothing wrong with 80 hp, but the HDS 23 foot wing would test your
patience in a short grass strip. The HDS is a fine performer when the
hp is closer to the
100 hp Subaru, even with the extra 12 lb radiator etc. But on landing
two large people and the Subaru require a more attentive faster landing.
|
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
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flyboy3847(at)onecommail.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:00 am Post subject: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework |
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Dear Dogsbody,
I just finished a 601HD scratch built and have about 14 hours on it so far. I agree with Larry that even the 601HD is a much better performer with the Subaru EA-81 engine. The engine is as they say bulletproof and with the Stratus re-drive system is capable of climb and cruise speeds as fast as any 172 even with 2 people aboard. I use a Warp Drive 3 blade 70” prop set at 171/2 degrees of pitch. I’ve seen 130 MPH at cruise and a 1000 FPM climb.
Unlike the C-85-90 the Subaru starts immediately even in the coldest weather when equipped with a Stratus intake and 2 Bing carbs. Stratus makes a secondary ignition which is all electronic with a crank sensor attached to the re-drive & fired by magnets in the flywheel. The setup works great! I’ve flown certified aircraft for over 25 years and this is the best engine I’ve ever flown behind.
In short, this a great airframe and a great engine. Good luck with your project.
Regards,
Leroy Wheeler
From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dogsbody
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:02 PM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework
Hi folks, I’ve been lurking this group and perusing the archives for a while in my research for my next aircraft project.
I keep coming back to the Jodel D-11, the Davis DA-2a and CH-601 HDS, and the CH-601 design is the only machine of the three which still has any real support (to stave off any questions as to my thoughts regarding the building the older 601 model - I’ve eliminated the XL and 650 off of my list due to heavier gross weight and thus higher power requirements. While definitely related to ‘601 HD/HDS, I consider the XL/650 a different aeroplane from HD/HDS).
Myself: I have past experience with Heintz-type metal construction from many hours spent on a Zenair CH-701 project, and have also reviewed the excellent CH CH601.org website among many others.
After my research, a few Q’s remain unanswered. I sent these questions off to Zenith via their excellent webpage but so far have received no reply (I can well imagine that they have little time for a mere plans-purchase enquiry at this point).
My criteria: Scratch-build, seat two six-foot-two people, use a economical Continental A-75/A-80 engine, have a realistic 100 mph cruise speed and minimum 500 fpm climb rate with aforementioned engine.
My questions to the Zenith601 group:
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Does anyone have any experience with operating a Continental A-75/A-80 in a CH-601, in particular the HDS? I’ve overhauled and currently operate one of these engines in my FlyBaby and nearly have enough parts collected to build up a another. The installed wet-weight of the A-series engine, ready to run with exhaust, mags and intake system, is probably a hair under 200 lbs, probably 40 lbs heavier than a 912 “complete and ready to run”? I have a fair bit of experience with the A-series Continental engines, and can have one ready to fly for a quarter of the price of a new 912 installation;
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Is the A-75/A-80 engine suitable for the HDS airframe? It is on the lower end of the factory published recommended power range for HDS;
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>What kind of realistic cruise could I expect with an A-75/A-80 in the 601 HD and the 601 HDS?
<![if !supportLists]>4. <![endif]>Is Zenith still supporting the “legacy” 601 HD/HDS airframes?
<![if !supportLists]>5. <![endif]>Are there any people out there still embarking on scratch-build HD/HDS projects?
Oh, and one more: are there any Vancouver Island ‘HDS builders or flyers in this group?
Happy New Year,
Drew
Bowers FlyBaby
CF-UFL | Quote: | | [b][b]www.aeroelectric.com |
01234567890123456789
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 270.14.123/2594 - Release Date: 12/30/09 07:27:00 [quote][b]
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dogsbody
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework |
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Thanks for the responses folks, very much appreciated.
I’ll have to consider me options as the consensus, on-list and off, seems to be that the closer to 100 hp the better for HDS, although 75/hp may be acceptable for an ‘HD. I’ll try giving a call to Zenith to get any feedback from them. Also, I’ll have to try and sit in one to see if I fit in the type comfortably (and maybe even get a familiarization flight).
Ideally I would like to use the A-series Continental engine as these are what I have, I can build up an uprated engine and test it in a proven airframe if necessary... perhaps a turbo? I will see what I can come up within my budget-comfort range and decide if it would be successful in a Zodiac for what I want, an honest 100 mph (or better) cruise and at least 500 fpm climb at gross weight.
I’ve flown behind CAM-100 and Model-A Ford flight-converted engines and appreciate what it takes to get an auto conversion to run both reliably and cool. Not to ignore the auto conversion option (got a low-mileage Subaru engine in my shed if I decided to go that route), but I didn’t care for the high revving of the CAM-100. Also. my flight experiences in air-testing both of the above auto-engines have not been entirely positive. It’s serious business flying a new aeroplane with an unproven (or should I say “yet to be de-bugged”) engine.
My research of Zodiac continues!
Drew
Bowers FlyBaby
CF-UFL
[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01CA8988.EE49EC20[/img]
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Drew
FlyBaby CF-UFL
Victoria, BC, Canada |
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Pete54
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 19
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:20 am Post subject: Re: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework |
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Until last year I owned a 601HD with an O-200 in it. It was either the first or second HD built in the UK and originally it had a 2 litre VW engine. It flew poorly with that engine - which was making 65 to 70hp. The rate of climb was around 300 fpm at sea level and the 'cruise' 90 mph
On that basis I would suggest an HDS is a very poor choice - there is one locally with a Rotax 912 and even it is not a great performer.
My HD with the O-200 was not a particularly good performer either - the O-200 makes most of its power at high rpm - which you cannot really access without a controllable pitch propeller. The 80hp Rotax 601HDs that I have flow were much better performers than mine with the notional 100hp from the O-200. They were of course much lighter the O-200 version is at least 65lb heavier.
I would suggest that an A series engine is just not powerful enough to give you the 100mph cruise that you are looking for. Whilst the cost of a Rotax is pretty horrid, there is a good reason for it - it's an excellent engine!
In Europe at the moment there is a reasonable supply of time expired 912 engine as Rotax do not rebuild them and the lregulations say TBO or 12 years - although the recent TBO increase has had an immediate effect. A friend of mine has bought 2 - which have both gone into homebuilt 601s. After 1500 hrs there were in very good condition - no wonder the TBO was increased!
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dogsbody
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:02 am Post subject: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework |
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Thanks for the feedback Pete!
I was over in Blighty in September visiting family and hooked up with a
homebuilder e-pal there (finally him in person) and he gave me a pile of the
"Light Aviation" magazines. I must say I was impressed with how well
organized the self-regulated LAA is, and the magazine's articles were very
well written too. The mags put my luggage nearly 10 kg over weight, so they
went into my carry-on backpack. It was an effort to stand nonchalantly
upright at the check-in counter at Heathrow!
I may have to re-think my engine choice if I decide to go the CH-601 route,
but if I did go up to an engine larger than my A-75/80's then a bullet-proof
CH-200 may work for me as well (if I could find plans for it). Chris
Heintz's machines are the closest I can find to a "tin Jodel" and I admire
the "KISS" philosophy of his designs.
Sincerely,
Drew Fidoe
FlyBaby CF-UFL
--
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Drew
FlyBaby CF-UFL
Victoria, BC, Canada |
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