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electric aileron trim

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jrlark

Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 72

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:44 pm Post subject: electric aileron trim

Hey Guys

  

 I'm getting ready to order my slow build wing kit  and am wondering if most builders have also bought the aileron trim kit from  Vans.  I intend to install a Tru Tak autopilot and probably the Safety  trim system that Bob Newman sells.  Not sure if using the autopilot  etc makes any difference with regards to the aileron trim system (I think  not).

  

 As I have already fabricated a rudder trim tab  system very similar to Brian Steeves, I'm wondering if the aileron system could  also be fabricated in house, as opposed to buying the Vans kit? 

  

 All opinions welcome.  Thx.

  

 Rick

 #40956

 Southampton, Ont

  

  

   [quote][b]

orchidman

Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Oklahoma City - KRCE

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:25 am Post subject: Re: electric aileron trim

 	  jrlark wrote: 	
		    

 As I have already fabricated a rudder trim tab  system very similar to Brian Steeves, I'm wondering if the aileron system could  also be fabricated in house, as opposed to buying the Vans kit? 

 	


In my opinion, you need both.  Vans aileron trim works and unless you want to spend a bunch of time designing and making your own, Vans is simple to build and install.

_________________
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N2GB Flying)

dmaib(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:35 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

I installed the Van's aileron trim and am glad I did. Fuel imbalance and passenger loading makes a noticeable need for trim. If you feel like fabricating your own system, I say go for it!



$.02 worth.

David Maib

40559

Flying



 



 



On Jan 15, 2010, at 12:42 AM, Rick Lark wrote:

Hey Guys

 

I'm getting ready to order my slow build wing kit and am wondering if most builders have also bought the aileron trim kit from Vans.  I intend to install a Tru Tak autopilot and probably the Safety trim system that Bob Newman sells.  Not sure if using the autopilot etc makes any difference with regards to the aileron trim system (I think not).

 

As I have already fabricated a rudder trim tab system very similar to Brian Steeves, I'm wondering if the aileron system could also be fabricated in house, as opposed to buying the Vans kit?

 

All opinions welcome.  Thx.

 

Rick

#40956

Southampton, Ont

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

fwiw. I'm using model airplane servos to turn hinge mounted on the 

trailing edge of rudder and one aileron.  You need a PWM signal to 

operate the servos, but that's easy for me.

Linn

orchidman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 jrlark wrote:

>   

>  As I have already fabricated a rudder trim tab  system very similar to Brian Steeves, I'm wondering if the aileron system could  also be fabricated in house, as opposed to buying the Vans kit? 

>  

 In my opinion, you need both.  Vans aileron trim works and unless you want to spend a bunch of time designing and making your own, Vans is simple to build and install.

 --------

 Gary Blankenbiller

 RV10 - # 40674

 (N2GB Flying)

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 81590#281590

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:12 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

I question the need for both aileron trim and autopilot. The autopilot

should be able to handle the minor imbalances. While a trim tab could

reduce loads on the autopilot, it seems like unneeded extra

complexity. I'd be interested in hearing from flying -10s whether they

have and actually use both systems. I could see one or the other, but

both would appear to be overkill.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 5:25 AM, orchidman <gary(at)wingscc.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 jrlark wrote:

>

>  As I have already fabricated a rudder trim tab  system very similar to Brian Steeves, I'm wondering if the aileron system could  also be fabricated in house, as opposed to buying the Vans kit?

>

 In my opinion, you need both.  Vans aileron trim works and unless you want to spend a bunch of time designing and making your own, Vans is simple to build and install.

 --------

 Gary Blankenbiller

 RV10 - # 40674

 (N2GB Flying)

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 81590#281590

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:28 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

I'd be interested in 'real life' info too.  I had a discussion with a

friend with extensive autopilot experience, and his comment was that if

the aircraft was out of trim, the autopilot 'flew funny'.  I'm guessing

it's because the autopilots he was flying behind had rate gyros, not

solid state ones so prevalent now.  Since I was already going to install

the model airplane servos and designed the PWM module, adding the

aileron trim was real easy.  I've never had actrive trim on anything 

I've flown, so this is new ground for me.

Linn

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I question the need for both aileron trim and autopilot. The

 autopilot should be able to handle the minor imbalances. While a trim

 tab could reduce loads on the autopilot, it seems like unneeded extra

  complexity. I'd be interested in hearing from flying -10s whether

 they have and actually use both systems. I could see one or the

 other, but both would appear to be overkill.

 On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 5:25 AM, orchidman <gary(at)wingscc.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> jrlark wrote:

>> As I have already fabricated a rudder trim tab  system very

>> similar to Brian Steeves, I'm wondering if the aileron system

>> could  also be fabricated in house, as opposed to buying the Vans

>> kit?

>> 

> In my opinion, you need both.  Vans aileron trim works and unless

> you want to spend a bunch of time designing and making your own,

> Vans is simple to build and install.

> 

> -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 (N2GB Flying)

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 81590#281590

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:42 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

If you want to save time on the controller, for a cost, Eric at Perihelion Designs has a nice little unit called the EGPNMSC.



http://www.periheliondesign.com/moreproducts.htm



Michael



--

drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:46 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

Kelley;

I put both in mine.  Most of the time you will set the aileron trim at 

one position and never move it.  Depending on who's flying with you (I 

tend to have the same left wheel wear problem Deems has), you may need 

to adjust it.  Also, I had to have my autopilot serviced and did a 

couple long cross country trips.  Having the aileron trim helps decrease 

your workload and cut down some of the heading drift.   My vote is that 

it is worth the installation. 

Dr Fred.

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I question the need for both aileron trim and autopilot. The autopilot

 should be able to handle the minor imbalances. While a trim tab could

 reduce loads on the autopilot, it seems like unneeded extra

 complexity. I'd be interested in hearing from flying -10s whether they

 have and actually use both systems. I could see one or the other, but

 both would appear to be overkill.

 On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 5:25 AM, orchidman <gary(at)wingscc.com> wrote:

> 

> jrlark wrote:

>     

>>  As I have already fabricated a rudder trim tab  system very similar to Brian Steeves, I'm wondering if the aileron system could  also be fabricated in house, as opposed to buying the Vans kit?

>>

>>       

> In my opinion, you need both.  Vans aileron trim works and unless you want to spend a bunch of time designing and making your own, Vans is simple to build and install.

>

> --------

> Gary Blankenbiller

> RV10 - # 40674

> (N2GB Flying)

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 81590#281590

>

>

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:48 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

I have both and use both.  I would highly recommend having both unless you

fly almost 100% of the time on the autopilot.  Fuel in-balance, fat pilot ,

pattern work, hood work ........ I use the trim every flight.



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080

--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:49 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

You can question the need if you wish. 

I'll tell you what...the RV-10's tanks are so looooong that they

give a pretty hefty imbalance.  Sure, with the AP on you

won't notice it too much, but even just hand flying it around

town, that plane can get very wing-heavy.  I would never want

to be without the ability to compensate it.  Now, depending

on your loading and everything else, you may only use it on

30-60% of your flights, but when you need it, you'll really

want it.  It's easier to build into the wing when the wing is

still on the bench and before you paint the access covers, so

I'd say in my recommendation I'd consider it standard equipment

and just do it.  But, if someone really likes to suffer, because

suffering makes them feel more like a man, then skip it for

now and just let that nagging voice in the back of your head

keep talking to you as you fly your 200th hour wishing you'd

have put it in.

Tim

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I question the need for both aileron trim and autopilot. The autopilot

 should be able to handle the minor imbalances. While a trim tab could

 reduce loads on the autopilot, it seems like unneeded extra

 complexity. I'd be interested in hearing from flying -10s whether they

 have and actually use both systems. I could see one or the other, but

 both would appear to be overkill.

 On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 5:25 AM, orchidman <gary(at)wingscc.com> wrote:

> 

> jrlark wrote:

>>  As I have already fabricated a rudder trim tab  system very similar to Brian Steeves, I'm wondering if the aileron system could  also be fabricated in house, as opposed to buying the Vans kit?

>>

> In my opinion, you need both.  Vans aileron trim works and unless you want to spend a bunch of time designing and making your own, Vans is simple to build and install.

>

> --------

> Gary Blankenbiller

> RV10 - # 40674

> (N2GB Flying)

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 81590#281590

>

aerosport1

Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 231

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:00 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

Take Tim's advice. It is easy to install and worth every penny. I only have

44 hrs on my Rv-10 and the first 32 were without auto pilot working 

Correctly. I was glad I had aileron trim.



Geoff



Geoff Combs

President

Aerosport Modeling & Design

8090 Howe Industrial Parkway 

Canal Winchester, Ohio 43110

614-834-5227p

614-834-5230f

www.aerosportmodeling.com

--

_________________
Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033

Albert Gardner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Yuma, AZ

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

I believe you need the aileron trim with an autopilot. I have a TruTrak but

you need to trim the aircraft before engaging the autopilot for two reasons.

When you disengage the aqutopilot an out-of-trim condition will cause abrupt

aircraft movement especially in pitch. Second, again especially in pitch,

the autopilot may "slip" if the out-of-trim condition is too strong. That

built-in slippage is what let's you overpower a runaway autopilot.

Albert Gardner

N991RV

Yuma, AZ

 



--

_________________
RV-9A N872RV
RV-10 N991RV

jrlark

Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 72

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

Albert, good points.   The aileron trims a "go" from my perspective.  A 

friend  with a T210 Cessna has an Stec55X that will squawk at him if the 

trim is out too much (PITA), so I think it's a good idea.

(by the way Albert, nice design on your spring biased rudder trim)



Now my next question,  are the Vans deluxe locking fuel caps worth the work 

to install? When this aircraft is completed, it may be tied down outside for 

a year or so.  The catalogue description says they certainly are not a drop 

in replacement.  That's ok to me as long as the modification is reasonable. 

Most of the archive messages seem to indicate they are worth the time and 

expense.  Again all opinions are welcome.



You guys have no idea how much easier it is to make these decisions with 

input from this forum (especially since I'm stuck on the far north tundra of 

southern Ontario).  Thx again



Rick

---

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

Don't leave home with out it!



Deems Davis

N519PJ

www.deemsrv10.com



 	  Quote:

Neal.George(at)hurlburt.a
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: electric aileron trim

..and it works very well.



neal



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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: electric aileron trim

Well, I was aware of that rather nifty item.  I'd need two 

(aileron/rudder trim) so that's $100 + shipping + servos ($2.



I used a Stamp Computer (http://tinyurl.com/yjrv4kg) $54, and the two 

servos $28 + shipping and wrote the program (simple basic language).  I 

have 10 more I/O ports left to do whatever strikes my fancy.  I could 

use some of the ports to control dimmers, or discrete flap settings or 

.......

Linn



RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:

[quote] 

 

 If you want to save time on the controller, for a cost, Eric at Perihelion Designs has a nice little unit called the EGPNMSC.

 

 http://www.periheliondesign.com/moreproducts.htm

 

 Michael

 

 --

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: electric aileron trim

All valid points, except that aileron trim is no where near as important as elevator trim. The examples you cite are all for elevator trim. I've heard the message from Tim and others that aileron trim is worthwhile. Some autopilots have aileron trim function built in. My Mooney has a knob on the turn coordinator that I just dial what gives a no turn, wings level position, and that is a crude Brittain wing leveler from the '60s.

 

 [img]cid:part1.02080500.07090809(at)aviating.com[/img]

 

 

 Albert Gardner wrote: [quote]   [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com> (ibspud(at)roadrunner.com)  I believe you need the aileron trim with an autopilot. I have a TruTrak but you need to trim the aircraft before engaging the autopilot for two reasons. When you disengage the aqutopilot an out-of-trim condition will cause abrupt aircraft movement especially in pitch. Second, again especially in pitch, the autopilot may "slip" if the out-of-trim condition is too strong. That built-in slippage is what let's you overpower a runaway autopilot. Albert Gardner N991RV Yuma, AZ    --

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

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