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cs(at)charlesstringham.co
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 Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:36 pm Post subject: Has anyone ever seen a... |
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Hi Everyone,
Yesterday, I had the opportunity to practice cursing like a really bad golfer. Every time I try using a flat rivet set on a convex surface like the leading edge of horizontal stabilizer, two things follow: liberal use of language that I must admit really does make me feel better, and yet another call to Vans for a replacement skin. No matter how careful I am, the rivet set always seems to walk just far enough off the flush rivet head to create a nice little smile. Yes, I have hammered a few of them out, and yes, I am aware of just how anal retentive I am.
So here's the question. Has anyone ever seen a tool that would prevent the rivet set from walking across the skin? I am thinking of a ring made of rubber with an inside diameter about 1/2 inch greater than the outside diameter of the rivet set. It would have a flange that you could hold on the skin of the flight surface. The rivet would be in the center of the ring, and the set could fit into the ring in a way such that the set could not wander off the rivet. I know there are sets that have a rubber ring affixed to the outer edge that oscillate up and down with the set, but the one I am thinking of would be held to the aircraft skin and not oscillate with the set. Has anyone ever seen something of this type? A machinist friend offered to make one for me, but I would feel stupid if such a tool already exists.
Thanks, Chet Stringham
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stein(at)steinair.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject: Has anyone ever seen a... |
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Do you mean a flush set like these:
http://www.averytools.com/pc-659-91-flush-rivet-set-with-guard-34-dia-face.aspx
Very, very common, although personally I like larger flush sets with no rubber ring on them for lighter gauge metal/small rivets and narrow diameter sets for larger rivets.
Cheers,
Stein
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Matt Dralle
Site Admin
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 25203
Location: Livermore CA USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:40 pm Post subject: Has anyone ever seen a... |
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| Quote: | http://www.averytools.com/pc-659-91-flush-rivet-set-with-guard-34-dia-face.aspx
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I used this type of flush head set with built in rubber foot exclusively on the RV-4 and RV-8 with near perfect results. Highly recommend.
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com Matt's RV-8 Construction Log
Fiberglass Windsceen Bezel...
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:46 pm Post subject: Has anyone ever seen a... |
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Three things:
1. If you are not using a swivel head rivet set for everything, stop. Here is the one from Cleaveland Tools: http://www.cleavelandtoolstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RSMS75
2. Use a piece of clear packing tape to cover the set face. This prevents skin scuff marks. Using masking tape on the round head rivet sets eliminates smilies as well.
3. For curved surfaces like going around a rib, you will often need to put a shim between the rib and the skin. A shim is just a 3/4" by 3/4" or so piece of .020", .025" or .032" aluminum drilled and dimpled. The rule is if you can fit a shim between the skin and the rib, you need a shim. This will eliminate creating flat spots along curved surfaces.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (525 hrs)
RV-10 (system install)
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dan.pat.b(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:05 pm Post subject: Has anyone ever seen a... |
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Chet:The type of rivetting you describe is difficult - been there and done that. Here is what I used and how I did it:
I used the rivet set you described (available from Avery Tools) with the rubber ring around the circumference. It is more forgiving than others I've used. Also - do not attempt this kind of rivetting alone - use a helper. My wife did most of the rivetting on my RV-7A and I did the bucking - it worked great - yes - we're still married. (Before we started the project we both took the EAA sheet metal/rivetting course.) She used the rivet set described above - held the gun with her right hand - and held the rivet set in place and steady on the rivet with her left hand. (She is right handed.) When we (notice I said "we") messed up - I would curse and she would point the gun at me and threaten to pull the trigger. Use a small ball peen hammer and a piece of steel (a large area bucking bar works fine) against the opposite side of the aluminum and carefull and gently tap out the dent. I had a few that had to be pounded out that way and, now that it's finished, I'm not sure I could even find them. If they drive you crazy you can always fill the little depressions with Super Fill. And remember - a good painter will be your best friend. And don't be so anal - you'll never get finished.
Dan Bergeron
RV-7A N307TB
98 hours since first flight on 8/4/09
(build time was 6 1/2 years)
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 4:33 PM, cs(at)charlesstringham.com (cs(at)charlesstringham.com) <cs(at)charlesstringham.com (cs(at)charlesstringham.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV8-List message posted by: "cs(at)charlesstringham.com (cs(at)charlesstringham.com)" <cs(at)charlesstringham.com (cs(at)charlesstringham.com)>
Hi Everyone,
Yesterday, I had the opportunity to practice cursing like a really bad golfer. Every time I try using a flat rivet set on a convex surface like the leading edge of horizontal stabilizer, two things follow: liberal use of language that I must admit really does make me feel better, and yet another call to Vans for a replacement skin. No matter how careful I am, the rivet set always seems to walk just far enough off the flush rivet head to create a nice little smile. Yes, I have hammered a few of them out, and yes, I am aware of just how anal retentive I am.
So here's the question. Has anyone ever seen a tool that would prevent the rivet set from walking across the skin? I am thinking of a ring made of rubber with an inside diameter about 1/2 inch greater than the outside diameter of the rivet set. It would have a flange that you could hold on the skin of the flight surface. The rivet would be in the center of the ring, and the set could fit into the ring in a way such that the set could not wander off the rivet. I know there are sets that have a rubber ring affixed to the outer edge that oscillate up and down with the set, but the one I am thinking of would be held to the aircraft skin and not oscillate with the set. Has anyone ever seen something of this type? A machinist friend offered to make one for me, but I would feel stupid if such a tool already exists.
Thanks, Chet Stringham
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vshimsl(at)live.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:52 pm Post subject: Has anyone ever seen a... |
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Hello C
I would suggest you check your rivet gun air pressure setting. It could be set too high so that you cannot feather the rivet gun causing it to jump. I had (my RV-8 is flying now) the compressor at roughly 95psi with a special adjustment on the rivet gun itself. Put the rivet gun against something solid and try to go from off through full on without it jumping. Adjust the rivet gun psi (not the compressor) so that the gun just begins to jump and then back off a hair. That seems to be the best technique as opposed to some magic psi number. With experience you will fine tune this for the task at hand C but as a beginner C it is a good place to start.
Next make sure you have adequate lubrication so that it doesn't hang and then jump.
Now given the above is set C you have to be perpindicular to the rivet or the gun will walk.
Avery tools sells a swivel C rubber insulated rivet tool attachment (starting to forget the terminology) that will work but you have to hold it. In the beginning the swivel set is great but after awhile C you will find the non swivel without rubber one easier to control especially on curved surfaces.
As for the smilies C they can be fixed at the end of your project with fiberglass/micro-ballon treatmeant. You will have worked on your windscreen by then and will know how to work with fiberglass. Also C be thankful. Now you have answered the 'will I paint or go with polished aluminum' question.
Whatever you do C don't tear everything apart and start over (anymore). Your biggest concern should not be minor imperfections C but the 25 to 30% competion rate for home built aircraft.
Regards C
Vince H.
Idaho/Washington USA
N8432
RV-8 Flying (29.5 hours)
| Quote: | Date: Sun C 7 Feb 2010 16:33:17 -0500
To: rv8-list(at)matronics.com
From: cs(at)charlesstringham.com
Subject: Has anyone ever seen a...
--> RV8-List message posted by: "cs(at)charlesstringham.com" <cs(at)charlesstringham.com>
Hi Everyone C
Yesterday C I had the opportunity to practice cursing like a really bad golfer. Every time I try using a flat rivet set on a convex surface like the leading edge of horizontal stabilizer C two things follow: liberal use of language that I must admit really does make me feel better C and yet another call to Vans for a replacement skin. No matter how careful I am C the rivet set always seems to walk just far enough off the flush rivet head to create a nice little smile. Yes C I have hammered a few of them out C and yes C I am aware of just how anal retentive I am.
So here's the question. Has anyone ever seen a tool that would prevent the rivet set from walking across the skin? I am thinking of a ring made of rubber with an inside diameter about 1/2 inch greater than the outside diameter of the rivet set. It would have a flange that you could hold on the skin of the flight surface. The rivet would be in the center of the ring C and the set could fit into the ring in a way such that the set could not wander off the rivet. I know there are sets that have a rubber ring affixed to the outer edge that oscillate up and down with the set C but the one I am thinking of would be held to the aircraft skin and not oscillate with the set. Has anyone ever seen something of this type? A machinist friend offered to make one for me C but I would feel stupid if such a tool already exists.
= Archive Search & Download C 7-Day Browse C Chat C FAQ C
&g===
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skylor4(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: Has anyone ever seen a... |
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A few items that I've found to help
with riveting:
1. Until you get more comfortable with riveting, get a helper to buck for you. This frees up both hands so that you can use your fingers on your second hand to position and guide the rivet set.
2. The set will walk if you are not holding the rivet gun perfectly perpendicular to the surface that you're riveting. It will typically walk in the direction that the gun is tilted. This applies to drilling as well.
3. If the gun is walking a lot, you may be using too much air pressure to drive the gun
Skylor
RV-8
Almost finished...
Sent from my iPhone.
On Feb 7, 2010, at 1:33 PM, "cs(at)charlesstringham.com" <cs(at)charlesstringham.com> wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Yesterday, I had the opportunity to practice cursing like a really bad golfer. Every time I try using a flat rivet set on a convex surface like the leading edge of horizontal stabilizer, two things follow: liberal use of language that I must admit really does make me feel better, and yet another call to Vans for a replacement skin. No matter how careful I am, the rivet set always seems to walk just far enough off the flush rivet head to create a nice little smile. Yes, I have hammered a few of them out, and yes, I am aware of just how anal retentive I am.
So here's the question. Has anyone ever seen a tool that would prevent the rivet set from walking across the skin? I am thinking of a ring made of rubber with an inside diameter about 1/2 inch greater than the outside diameter of the rivet set. It would have a flange that you could hold on the skin of the flight surface. The rivet would be in the center of the ring, and the set could fit into the ring in a way such that the set could not wander off the rivet. I know there are sets that have a rubber ring affixed to the outer edge that oscillate up and down with the set, but the one I am thinking of would be held to the aircraft skin and not oscillate with the set. Has anyone ever seen something of this type? A machinist friend offered to make one for me, but I would feel stupid if such a tool already exists.
Thanks, Chet Stringham
| | - The Matronics RV8-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List |
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william_slaughter(at)att.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:04 am Post subject: Has anyone ever seen a... |
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Dan is right on the money here about using one hand on the gun while one hand steadies the rivet set, and a second person bucks. Combine this technique with a swivel rivet set and you’ll be good to go.
William Slaughter
RV-8 finishing up the fuselage
From: owner-rv8-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Bergeron
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 5:17 PM
To: rv8-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Has anyone ever seen a...
Chet:
The type of rivetting you describe is difficult - been there and done that. Here is what I used and how I did it:
I used the rivet set you described (available from Avery Tools) with the rubber ring around the circumference. It is more forgiving than others I've used. Also - do not attempt this kind of rivetting alone - use a helper. My wife did most of the rivetting on my RV-7A and I did the bucking - it worked great - yes - we're still married. (Before we started the project we both took the EAA sheet metal/rivetting course.) She used the rivet set described above - held the gun with her right hand - and held the rivet set in place and steady on the rivet with her left hand. (She is right handed.) When we (notice I said "we") messed up - I would curse and she would point the gun at me and threaten to pull the trigger. Use a small ball peen hammer and a piece of steel (a large area bucking bar works fine) against the opposite side of the aluminum and carefull and gently tap out the dent. I had a few that had to be pounded out that way and, now that it's finished, I'm not sure I could even find them. If they drive you crazy you can always fill the little depressions with Super Fill. And remember - a good painter will be your best friend. And don't be so anal - you'll never get finished.
Dan Bergeron
RV-7A N307TB
98 hours since first flight on 8/4/09
(build time was 6 1/2 years)
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 4:33 PM, cs(at)charlesstringham.com (cs(at)charlesstringham.com) <cs(at)charlesstringham.com (cs(at)charlesstringham.com)> wrote:
--> RV8-List message posted by: "cs(at)charlesstringham.com (cs(at)charlesstringham.com)" <cs(at)charlesstringham.com (cs(at)charlesstringham.com)>
Hi Everyone,
Yesterday, I had the opportunity to practice cursing like a really bad golfer. Every time I try using a flat rivet set on a convex surface like the leading edge of horizontal stabilizer, two things follow: liberal use of language that I must admit really does make me feel better, and yet another call to Vans for a replacement skin. No matter how careful I am, the rivet set always seems to walk just far enough off the flush rivet head to create a nice little smile. Yes, I have hammered a few of them out, and yes, I am aware of just how anal retentive I am.
So here's the question. Has anyone ever seen a tool that would prevent the rivet set from walking across the skin? I am thinking of a ring made of rubber with an inside diameter about 1/2 inch greater than the outside diameter of the rivet set. It would have a flange that you could hold on the skin of the flight surface. The rivet would be in the center of the ring, and the set could fit into the ring in a way such that the set could not wander off the rivet. I know there are sets that have a rubber ring affixed to the outer edge that oscillate up and down with the set, but the one I am thinking of would be held to the aircraft skin and not oscillate with the set. Has anyone ever seen something of this type? A machinist friend offered to make one for me, but I would feel stupid if such a tool already exists.
Thanks, Chet Stringham
===========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List |
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martin(at)gbonline.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:43 am Post subject: Has anyone ever seen a... |
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Charles,
I read with interest your post about rivit gun problems.
Vincent Himsls post is very accurate.as to proceedure. The only advice I
can add is, there are a lot of bargain basement rivit guns on the market.
If you cannot tease the gun when striking the rivet, GET RID OF IT. (sell it
to someone you don"t like) Both Cleveland Tool and Avery sell quality
rivit guns. Not cheap, but can control the strike rate on a good gun. Note:
practice on a piece of scrap to adjust the air pressure and strike rate
before riviting .
Good Luck.
Dick Martin
RV8 N233M
the fast one
---
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