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elleryweld(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Has anyone on the list ever thought of designing something to adjust the horizontal stabilizers like on a cub to trim a Kolb it just makes more sense to me because it would be a positive trim and not make more drag , the spring system just doesn't work as great as it should for me the air temps change so much the springs are not consistent enough for me.
I rebuilt the elevators on my old firestar a few years ago and built a inflight trim tab into one of the elevators with great results, but that would make more drag than a stabilizer trim system what are your opinions ?
The reason I ask, I am working on a electric project to do just this on a Kolb Mk3 it might be a waste of my time but I have to try it anyway thanks for your time and input.
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
Kolb Mk3C
N213, 582 Rotax
Garmin AERA
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planecrazzzy Guest
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:38 am Post subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Wittman had a simple trim system that works...
Here's some pictures of mine... I can give you more details if you need them.
.
.
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz"
Building Wittman "Buttercup" w/Lycoming 0-235
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Eugene Zimmerman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 392
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Ellery,
My experience at pitch trimming the kolb plane using adjustable horizontal stabilizers has been totally unsatisfactory. I believe the reason for this is because of the specific triangular shape of stab which reduces the surface area of the stab to near zero at the outer point of the stab.
On my plane I needed more nose up trim, so I tried lowering the leading edge of the stab. The result was totally unsatisfactory. It merely made the elevator have a natural downward deflection to remain aligned with the air flow as it passed over the stab. It actually now required even more back stick pressure to keep the nose up and it was less efficient because the stab and the elevator were now misaligned with a combined camber that is opposite what is necessary for the downward direction of the force on the tail to raise the nose.
I attached an in-flight picture where you can see this opposite camber of the stab & elevator necessary to produce downward force of the tail.
Against all intuition I then raised the leading edge of the horizontal stab to align with the natural inflight position of elevator and much to my amazement it improved the trim greatly.
I did eventually add an in-flight adjustable tab to the elevator which is much more effective and efficient at aerodynamically changing pitch trim, though I'm not saying it is better than adjustable spring tension to the mechanical linkage of the stock kolb elevator.
My conclusion is that trying to use adjustable stab incidence for pitch control on a Kolb is ineffective and a wast of time and effort.
Merely sharing my experience.
Gene Z
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Eugene Zimmerman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 392
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Ellery,
My experience at pitch trimming the kolb plane using the horizontal stabilizers has been totally unsatisfactory. I believe the reason for this is because of the specific triangular shape of stab which reduces the surface area of the stab to near zero at outer the point of the stab.
On my plane I needed more nose up trim, so I tried lowering the leading edge of the stab. The result was totally unsatisfactory. It merely made the elevator have a natural downward deflection to remain aligned with the air flow as it passed over the stab. It actually now required as much or even more back stick pressure to keep the nose up and it was less efficient because the stab and the elevator were now misaligned with an opposite camber for the necessary direction control force to raise the nose.
I attached an in-flight picture where this opposite camber of the stab & elevator to produce downward force of the tail can be seen.
Against all intuition I then raised the leading edge of the horizontal stab to align with the natural inflight position elevator and much to my amazement it improved the trim greatly.
I did eventually add an in-flight adjustable tab to the elevator which is much more effective and efficient at aerodynamically changing pitch trim, though I'm not saying it is better than adjustable spring tension to the mechanical linkage of the stock kolb elevator.
Merely sharing my experience.
Gene Z
[img]cid:22C990AB-7E63-4C70-8CB3-3F688516F208[/img]
On Feb 15, 2010, at 8:51 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote:
Quote: | Has anyone on the list ever thought of designing something to adjust the horizontal stabilizers like on a cub to trim a Kolb it just makes more sense to me because it would be a positive trim and not make more drag , the spring system just doesn't work as great as it should for me the air temps change so much the springs are not consistent enough for me.
I rebuilt the elevators on my old firestar a few years ago and built a inflight trim tab into one of the elevators with great results, but that would make more drag than a stabilizer trim system what are your opinions ?
The reason I ask, I am working on a electric project to do just this on a Kolb Mk3 it might be a waste of my time but I have to try it anyway thanks for your time and input.
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
Kolb Mk3C
N213, 582 Rotax
Garmin AERA
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elleryweld(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Eugene
thanks for your input that's the kind of info I was looking for, someone that has tried it.
I had my old firestar able to fly hands off long distance with a trim tab in the elevator I want to make my Mk3 fly as well ,if I let go of the stick it wants to take a dive the way it is now and I don't like it that way i am just trying to figure out the best way to correct it.
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:17 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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I added prebent aluminum tabs to my UltraStar to trim for a slow cruise, then a bungee system to add more down elevator for normal cruise, and to compensate as fuel burns:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/flyparafan/Kolb/elevator_trim.jpg
When I move the fuel tanks from in front of to behind the seat I'm hoping I can back off on one or both of the tabs, but I'll keep the bungee arrangement for inflight adjustment.
-Dana
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The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve. The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve. [quote][b]
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zeprep251(at)AOL.COM Guest
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:51 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Gene,
Using your picture as a guide,it appears that reflexing the ailerons might be helpful in reducing that forward pitch tendency.
G.Aman
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elleryweld(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:11 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Nice looking ultrastar you have there but theres quite a difference from that to a MK3 I just want a more sufisticated way of triming my plane than a bungie
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:22 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Ellery B/Gang:
I fabricated a trim wheel for forced pitch trim. Mounted it just forward the throttle handle.
Most mkIII's need nose up trim only.
Only time my mkIII needs nose up trim is under cruise power. Lower power settings, the aircraft is about neutral with a 12 lb Maule Tundra Tailwheel and my main gear modification which moved the main gear forward about 8 inches.
I use Kolb Company recommended pair of heavy springs on the up side and a very light spring on the down side, with 1/16" aircraft cable from springs to trim wheel/pulley.
I guess it still works. Have flown about 5 hours since I returned from Homer's funeral 19 July 2009.
Al Gump has screwed up our global warming in Alabama. Hanging at 32F.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
[quote]
Nice looking ultrastar you have there but theres quite a difference from that to a MK3 I just want a more sufisticated way of triming my plane than a bungie
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
[b]
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_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009 Posts: 1392 Location: Udall, KS, USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:03 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Ellery, Check the aileron and flap rigging, the only have to be down a fraction of a degree to get that effect. Set the trim in the middle, fly, then adjust rigging to get neutral trim. Worked for me.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com (elleryweld(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] Eugene
thanks for your input that's the kind of info I was looking for, someone that has tried it.
I had my old firestar able to fly hands off long distance with a trim tab in the elevator I want to make my Mk3 fly as well ,if I let go of the stick it wants to take a dive the way it is now and I don't like it that way i am just trying to figure out the best way to correct it.
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
--
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smlplanet(at)msn.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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I had the same problem, flying solo I was fine hands off but duel I had to hold forward pressure on the stick and made landings tricky. I bought and adjustment from Kolb ( to expensive plus needs more position holes ) but did the trick so long as you remember to change the pin location. I have an elect. trim that I getting ready to install to be able to adjust for the extra weight of the larger fuel tank i'm installing. I am using a boat trim indicator so that I can always see where it is and adjust in flight as needed.
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:02:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Ellery, Check the aileron and flap rigging, the only have to be down a fraction of a degree to get that effect. Set the trim in the middle, fly, then adjust rigging to get neutral trim. Worked for me.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com (elleryweld(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] Eugene
thanks for your input that's the kind of info I was looking for, someone that has tried it.
I had my old firestar able to fly hands off long distance with a trim tab in the elevator I want to make my Mk3 fly as well ,if I let go of the stick it wants to take a dive the way it is now and I don't like it that way i am just trying to figure out the best way to correct it.
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
--
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Eugene Zimmerman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 392
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:28 am Post subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Kolb pilot friends,
Yes, pitch trim may be adjusted via aileron rigging ,,,, but normally not while in-flight. This means the airplane is ideally trimmed for only one specific airspeed, power setting, and payload.
Change any one of these conditions and the airplane becomes out of trim again.
Hence the convenience of having adjustable in-flight pitch trim.
Gene Z
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Hence the convenience of having adjustable in-flight pitch trim.
Gene Z
Gene Z/Gang:
I lucked out with my Firestar. I needed a little help trimming in pitch,
roll, and yaw. Did not know what the results would be when I fabricated
fixed trim tabs from .015" 6061 aluminum sheet for the right aileron, left
elevator, and rudder. The thin sheet metal was easy to tweak to get the FS
dialed in and trimmed up. The result was, in fact, mind boggling. My FS
was always trimmed, not matter how it was loaded (I was doing a lot of long
multi-day cross country flights with camping gear, clothes, etc., plus 18
gal fuel, another 108 lbs) or what speed I flew. It would hold a nice steep
Kolb climb hands off on takeoff, zero stick pressure during cruise and other
areas of flight. Undoubtedly, the thin sheet metal would flex enough to
compensate for airspeed.
Wish I could get Miss P'fer (P fer plane) my mkIII to trim out like that.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
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smlplanet(at)msn.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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I agree but like some of the plane spraying and in my case XC the trim will change as fuel is used.
Now I have to land and change the adjustment to fly hands off ( with out appling pressure to the stick) I like having my hands free when I have to ( drink coffee or use the camera and video)
I like flying low over the Gulf of Mexico looking at the schools of fish, shark, rays and any thing of interest.
[quote] Subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim
From: etzimm(at)gmail.com
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:28:36 -0800
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Eugene Zimmerman" <etzimm(at)gmail.com>
Kolb pilot friends,
Yes, pitch trim may be adjusted via aileron rigging ,,,, but normally not while in-flight. This means the airplane is ideally trimmed for only one specific airspeed, power setting, and payload.
Change any one of these conditions and the airplane becomes out of trim again.
Hence the convenience of having adjustable in-flight pitch trim.
Gene Z
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286806#286806
<=========
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elleryweld(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:40 pm Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Thanks I will give that a try before I go spending a bunch of time and money on other designs
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 1670 Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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elleryweld(at)aol.com wrote: | Has anyone on the list ever thought of designing something to adjust the horizontal stabilizers like on a cub to trim a Kolb it just makes more sense to me because it would be a positive trim and not make more drag , the spring system just doesn't work as great as it should for me the air temps change so much the springs are not consistent enough for me.
I rebuilt the elevators on my old firestar a few years ago and built a inflight trim tab into one of the elevators with great results,�but that would make more drag than a stabilizer trim system what are your opinions ?
The reason I ask, I am working on a electric project to do just this on a Kolb Mk3 it might be a waste of my time but I have to try it� anyway thanks for your time and input.
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
Kolb Mk3C
N213, 582 Rotax
Garmin AERA
-- |
You might want to think about modifying the flap handle mechanism a bit. By being able to either reflex or slightly lower the flaps just a little, the rest of the trim system hardly has to work at all to get things in trim. I can carry a heavy passenger, and by reflexing the flaps up a notch at cruise, the up elevator trim is then only about 30% of normal.
Here is a link to how I did mine, but I would think that if you overlaid the standard curved piece of steel that has 3 big vertical slots cut in it with a new one that had multiple horizontal slots instead, and then attached a horizontal piece of steel to the flap handle that would click into the slots, you could do it even easier. (I tend to over complicate stuff, so there is probably an easier way...) As long as it doesn't tend to pop out of the slots, almost any crude and simple system is ok.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg3.htm
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
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elleryweld(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:22 pm Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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that gives me an Idea I have an electric actuator now Im thinking I should install that and set it up so I can go a tad negative on the flaps and make the flaps electric, get two birds with one shot.
I really like this list even if it makes my mind go to another world once in a while you guys are always interesting,help full and full of things I cant seem to think of once in a while
and its really nice to not have any bickering
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
--
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icrashrc
Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 247 Location: Mishawaka, In
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:31 am Post subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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You mean like this?
http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/electric_flap_drive.htm
elleryweld(at)aol.com wrote: | that gives me an Idea I have an electric actuator now Im thinking I should install that and set it up so I can go a tad negative on the flaps and make the flaps electric, get two birds with one shot.
I really like this list even if it makes my mind go to another world once in a while you guys are always interesting,help full and full of things I cant seem to think of once in a while
and its really nice to not have any bickering
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-- |
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_________________ Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive |
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elleryweld(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:48 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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Thats what I have in my hand but the one I have is longer, I have the website handy so I can get what I need if it needs to be a short one
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:48 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim |
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You mean like this?
http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/electric_flap_drive.htm
Scott
Scott/Gang:
How fast is the actuator through full travel?
The MKIII doesn't like to climb with full or half flaps. Climbs much better
clean.
I like the almost instantaneous capability of going from full flaps in
landing configuration to climbing out clean in a go around situation.
Infinite adjustment of flap angle might be fun to play with in the air.
Global warming is ruining my flying. My airplane needs to be washed when
the ice in the bucket and the hose thaws.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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