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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:49 am Post subject: Northstar problems

Dick, mine is Floscan, not a Northstar so this may not help much.  The  transducers may or may not be the same, but I mounted mine horizontally under  the seat purposely to keep it away from heat, something Floscan  recommended.  I replaced the transducer at the 4 year point because the  fuel additives rotted the rubber parts and it was replaced by Floscan with a  newer version that used different materials.  That was six years ago and  still working fine.  I suspect your location near the muffler may be the  main cause of your problems.  Lots of heat there.

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT

Previously  Model 2 582 400 Hrs

"If you put the federal government in charge of the  Sahara

Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel  prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)

  

 ---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: Northstar problems

In fact, don't the Northstar instructions specifically say to mount  

away from heat? And if it's 4 inches away from the muffler, and above  

the gascolator, it sounds like the gascolator is awfully close to the  

muffler for whatever that's worth. Why a gascolator anyway in a  

Kitfox? The header tank serves me well for that function, and has for  

over 4 years. My Northstar transducer functions well inside the  

cabin, under the console, but at about a 50-60 degree upward angle.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 875 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~125 to go(137 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Mar 9, 2010, at 10:48 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



[quote] Dick, mine is Floscan, not a Northstar so this may not help much.   

 The transducers may or may not be the same, but I mounted mine  

 horizontally under the seat purposely to keep it away from heat,  

 something Floscan recommended.  I replaced the transducer at the 4  

 year point because the fuel additives rotted the rubber parts and  

 it was replaced by Floscan with a newer version that used different  

 materials.  That was six years ago and still working fine.  I  

 suspect your location near the muffler may be the main cause of  

 your problems.  Lots of heat there.

 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT

 Previously Model 2 582 400 Hrs

 "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

 Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

 -- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

vetdrem

Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 62

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Northstar problems

Lynn, a header tank does not  act at all like a gasolator.  A gasolator is designed to be a low spot in the system to collect water and other contamination that gets into the fuel system.  Fuel enters the from the center of the top, and exits through a screen that is above the bowl and out the outlet fitting on the top of the housing.  During the pre-flight inspection, a small sample is drawn off the bottom of the gasolator and examined for contamination.

 The header tank is a reservoir for fuel to ensure that there is supply of fuel to the engine at any (normal ) flight attitude.  A steep turn can uncover the outlet port of a wing tank, and cause fuel starvation.  But because there is a header tank, the engine has a gallon or so to use until the wings get leveled again.  The outlet of the header tank is on the bottom of the tank, so any contamination that enters  just passes right on through.

  Both components are a good idea.



Louie  

Model 3  912ul

Houghton Lake, MI

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

On the contrary, Louie, the fuel outlet is NOT on the bottom of my  

Kitfox (circa 1994) header tank. My fuel outlet, and I suspect that  

many other Kitfox header tanks are the same,  is about one inch...at  

least...up from the bottom. This location insures that any  

contamination will drop to the bottom of the header tank, and will  

empty out into the sumping collection device. It works just like you  

described for the gascolator, except that its holding capacity is  

much larger. One good header tank and a couple of Purolator see- 

through fuel filters placed before the header tank and you've just  

saved the under-the-cowl "good idea."  Everything you mentioned about  

the gascolator....."designed to be a low spot in the system to  

collect water and other contamination"....."During the pre-flight  

inspection, a small sample is drawn off the bottom".....exactly  

describes the function of MY header tank in MY installation.



You did a good job of describing everything except for the fact that  

the header tank....MY stock header tank from the old Skystar  

company....does NOT have its outlet "on the bottom."

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 875 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~125 to go(137 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Mar 9, 2010, at 5:32 PM, vetdrem wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn, a header tank does not  act at all like a gasolator.  A  

 gasolator is designed to be a low spot in the system to collect  

 water and other contamination that gets into the fuel system.  Fuel  

 enters the from the center of the top, and exits through a screen  

 that is above the bowl and out the outlet fitting on the top of the  

 housing.  During the pre-flight inspection, a small sample is drawn  

 off the bottom of the gasolator and examined for contamination.

  The header tank is a reservoir for fuel to ensure that there is  

 supply of fuel to the engine at any (normal ) flight attitude.  A  

 steep turn can uncover the outlet port of a wing tank, and cause  

 fuel starvation.  But because there is a header tank, the engine  

 has a gallon or so to use until the wings get leveled again.  The  

 outlet of the header tank is on the bottom of the tank, so any  

 contamination that enters  just passes right on through.

   Both components are a good idea.



 Louie

 Model 3  912ul

 Houghton Lake, MI





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289835#289835

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

vetdrem

Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 62

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Northstar problems

Cool.  Glad you're comfortable with it.  My header tank outlet is also about an inch off the bottom, but I don't have a sample point there, so the gasolator in my plane is the place for trying to ensure clean fuel to the engine. 



Louie

Model 3

912ul

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:40 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

Your header tank doesn't have a drain port / sampling point in the  

very bottom? Boy, the inspector must've been asleep the day that one  

left the factory. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 875 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~125 to go(137 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Mar 9, 2010, at 6:56 PM, vetdrem wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Cool.  Glad you're comfortable with it.  My header tank outlet is  

 also about an inch off the bottom, but I don't have a sample point  

 there, so the gasolator in my plane is the place for trying to  

 ensure clean fuel to the engine.



 Louie

 Model 3

 912ul





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289848#289848

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:03 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

Lynn:



Your header, with larger plumbing, could be a gascolator for an A380.  

Just reverse the in and out lines.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:04 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

None on my 4-1200.   Larry

---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:28 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

I'll have to have a look at the one that came with my kit to see if  

it has a bottom drain port. After I got my kit and started building  

it, I found that the later kits moved the header tank from a more  

rearward position (behind the baggage sack) and higher, to a (lower)  

point right behind the seat, right-hand side of the plane. They also  

sloped the upper one-third of the tank, so that it would fit the  

slope of the seat. I had mentioned in this group that I would like to  

get one of these sloped tanks, and good buddy Deke came through with  

one, and that's the one I used. I'd almost forgotten about the change  

of position that I made, and I've forgotten whether the original tank  

had a bottom drain or not.

Well, if anybody's still building, and wants to move their header  

tank, think about the convenience of having it low enough that it  

acts like the world's largest "gascolator."  But I would think about  

getting the one with the drain port already in the bottom, because it  

might be a leaking nightmare to try and install a port in that  

slippery plastic stuff that they're made from.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 875 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~125 to go(137 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:04 PM, larry huntley wrote:



[quote] 

 <asq(at)roadrunner.com>



 None on my 4-1200.   Larry

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

Looks like I'll have to sit up nights guarding my header tank from  

those thievin'  A380 drivers. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 875 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~125 to go(137 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn:



 Your header, with larger plumbing, could be a gascolator for an  

 A380.  

 Just reverse the in and out lines.



 Noel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Jimz

Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 31

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

Here you can see the outlet on the front and the drain in the  bottom.

 Jim Series 5 0-200 

 21D  MN

Jim-Z_16.JPG

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:00 am Post subject: Northstar problems

And on my installation, I used a plastic (PVC) floor flange of a  

suitable diameter cemented to the fabric below the quick drain to  

reinforce said fabric, and allow for sumping the header tank through  

a hole cut in the fabric.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 875 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~125 to go(137 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)



On Mar 9, 2010, at 11:45 PM, Zimmermans wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Here you can see the outlet on the front and the drain in the bottom.

 Jim Series 5 0-200

 21D  MN

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Northstar problems

A gascolator has a fine-mesh screen, the function of which should be obvious.

A header tank does not. 

- Mike Perkins

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:55 am Post subject: Northstar problems

I'll bet my two Purolator glass in-line filters (before the header  

tank) do exactly what that fine-mesh screen does.....and if they  

don't, the one Purolator glass in-line filter *after* the header tank  

does.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 875 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~125 to go(137 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:45 AM, mikeperkins wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <michael.perkins(at)rauland.com>



 A gascolator has a fine-mesh screen, the function of which should  

 be obvious.

 A header tank does not.

 - Mike Perkins

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Northstar problems

Lynn, thank you for providing me an opportunity to clarify. I wasn't comparing the use of gascolators to filters, but rather making a distinction between header tanks and gascolators - a header tank will not prevent stirred-up debris from going on downstream whereas a gascolator will. 

- Mike Perkins

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

Roger that, Mike. If I didn't have the header tank (to hopefully  

allow the debris to settle), I'd probably need the gascolator for the  

very purpose you describe. The reason that I have the third glass  

filter in-line is to capture any junk that could be going for a ride  

just before it goes into that seemingly pesky Northstar transducer.  

And, as fate would have it, my TBI contains a very fine mesh screen  

that Rotec calls the "last chance filter."



Maybe I'm lucky, but in going on 4 years of flying this one plane,  

I've only had to change those Purolator filter elements once....and  

that was because I was embarrassed to have bought so many of the  

filter elements, and never saw the need to change them. They have  

always been so clean and clear that there didn't seem to be a point  

to change the elements....and all this having run 3500-4000 gallons  

or so through the system....100 LL, that is.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 875 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Countdown to 1000 hrs~125 to go(136 days to go)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Mar 10, 2010, at 3:10 PM, mikeperkins wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <michael.perkins(at)rauland.com>



 Lynn, thank you for providing me an opportunity to clarify. I  

 wasn't comparing the use of gascolators to filters, but rather  

 making a distinction between header tanks and gascolators - a  

 header tank will not prevent stirred-up debris from going on  

 downstream whereas a gascolator will.

 - Mike Perkins





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289944#289944

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:04 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

You need an access port on the bottom of the fuse to take samples from your header.  A nice addition on future header tanks would be for the tank to have a small sump on the bottom to trap water.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zimmermans

 Sent: March 10, 2010 1:15 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Northstar problems  

  

  

     

Here you can see the outlet on the front and the drain in the bottom.  

    

Jim Series 5 0-200   

    

21D  MN  

  

        [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:20 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

The simple answer to that is, if it bothers you install a screen after the

header tank.  



Me... I like the idea of a gascolator with a clear glass bowl and a drain at

the lowest point of the whole fuel system.  That's just me.

Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

vetdrem

Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 62

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Northstar problems

Let's see now....should I comment on "glass" filters?.........Naw, I'm sure he ment to say poly-carbonate.



Louie

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: Northstar problems

Did you ever get gasoline on polycarbonate?   Larry



---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

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