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sarg314(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:30 am Post subject: engine loping |
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All I have to do to be ready for my DAR inspection is to calibrate my capacitive fuel probes. Â I taxied from the hangar to the fuel pumps (a few hundred yards) on half a gallon of gas and then filled the left tank. Â The engine ran OK on the way out. Â The plane has about an hour on it taxiing and the engine has always run smoothly. Â On the way back from the pumps with the left tank completely full, the engine wouldn't run at a steady speed. Â It kept dropping RPM Â with a period of about 2 seconds. Â If I tried to make it idle it would almost stop when the RPMs dropped. Â I tried changing the mixture and running on one or the other ignition, to no effect. Â It seems like a fuel supply issue. Â I didn't try turning on the electric boost pump (I have AFP fuel injection). Â I guess I'll try that tomorrow.
I can't imagine how filling the tank could have any effect, so this is probably just a coincidence. Â Any suggestions?
--
Tom Sargent
[quote][b]
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recapen(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: engine loping |
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Tom,
How long did it run before you shut it down at the fuel pump? How long was it shut down to refuel? Did you run the purge system before restart? Do you have a cooling shroud around your fuel pump?
What size injector restrictors do you have? I have swapped out the stock .028 for .024 and turned my idle mixture two lands rich - that helped my hot running quite a bit. Additionally, after a hot restart, mine lopes a bit too at lower idles - even with the boost pump on.
According to what I've read, it's worse with SJ cowls and plenums.
Ralph
RV6A N822AR (at) N06 65hrs
AFP, SJ Cowl/plenum, LASAR ignition
--
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av8er2fly(at)peoplepc.com
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 7:55 am Post subject: engine loping |
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I would first make sure your vent isn't plugged?
[quote] -----Mark Rose 8A 137MR Original Message -----
From: thomas sargent (sarg314(at)gmail.com)
To: rv-list (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:26 AM
Subject: engine loping
All I have to do to be ready for my DAR inspection is to calibrate my capacitive fuel probes. I taxied from the hangar to the fuel pumps (a few hundred yards) on half a gallon of gas and then filled the left tank. The engine ran OK on the way out. The plane has about an hour on it taxiing and the engine has always run smoothly. On the way back from the pumps with the left tank completely full, the engine wouldn't run at a steady speed. It kept dropping RPM with a period of about 2 seconds. If I tried to make it idle it would almost stop when the RPMs dropped. I tried changing the mixture and running on one or the other ignition, to no effect. It seems like a fuel supply issue. I didn't try turning on the electric boost pump (I have AFP fuel injection). I guess I'll try that tomorrow.
I can't imagine how filling the tank could have any effect, so this is probably just a coincidence. Any suggestions?
--
Tom Sargent
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sarg314(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 8:22 am Post subject: engine loping |
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Lots of good questions. Â It did not run long at the fuel pump at all. I stopped it 30 ft out and dragged it up to the pumps. Â Cyl. head temp was about 300 F. Â Fueling (of just 1 tank) took half an hour or so because I was calibrating both my fuel depth measuring tube and my capacitive fuel sensor. Â I did not purge before restart, but I would assume after running 100 yards or more, that wouldn't matter any more. Â Maybe not. Â It started easily. Â I have no shroud on my fuel pump. Â I should also mention that this is just about the first time I've really run the thing with the cowl on. Â I have a cooling plenum, so the cooling air across the cylinders is about the same with or without the cowl. Â However, the cooling of everything else - the lines and the pump - would definitely change with the cowl in place. Â My injectors are stock AFP - I haven't changed anything.
I plan to check the vent this afternoon. Â The wind is gusting so bad in Tucson today, I may not want to drag it out of the hangar let alone trying any taxi tests.
[quote][b]
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jim jewell
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 82
Location: Kelowna B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 8:28 am Post subject: engine loping |
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Filling the tank may have dislodged enough hidden building swarf to partially clog the fuel supply system.
Be careful, check filters etc.
Jim in Kelowna
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:27 AM
To: rv-list
Subject: engine loping
All I have to do to be ready for my DAR inspection is to calibrate my capacitive fuel probes. I taxied from the hangar to the fuel pumps (a few hundred yards) on half a gallon of gas and then filled the left tank. The engine ran OK on the way out. The plane has about an hour on it taxiing and the engine has always run smoothly. On the way back from the pumps with the left tank completely full, the engine wouldn't run at a steady speed. It kept dropping RPM with a period of about 2 seconds. If I tried to make it idle it would almost stop when the RPMs dropped. I tried changing the mixture and running on one or the other ignition, to no effect. It seems like a fuel supply issue. I didn't try turning on the electric boost pump (I have AFP fuel injection). I guess I'll try that tomorrow.
I can't imagine how filling the tank could have any effect, so this is probably just a coincidence. Any suggestions?
--
Tom Sargent
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recapen(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 1:37 pm Post subject: engine loping |
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If the OAT was abofe 65F, you might have gotten a little vapor lock....65 is my transition point. After you get a few hours on it, you may want to go with the smaller nozzles - it keeps the pressure up and lessens the chances of vapor lock.
I don't have a shroud on my pump either - but it is on the 'get soon' list.
[quote] ---
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: engine loping |
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This would be the first thing I’d look at as well.
If not yet done, you need to do a very through flush of the fuel system. Attach a cheap in line fuel filter and some tubing to the firewall fuel line and use your fuel pump to flush several gallons to a gas can. Shift tanks, shake the plane, etc. If you use a clear fuel filter you can see when you have clean gas flowing. This is also the time to do your fuel flow test (get more fuel flow than your engine can use) – say 20+ GPH flow using your electric fuel pump. Since you are running the gas through a filter it is ok to put it back in the plane and flush some more.
As you already ran your engine, pull any engine associated finger type filters and make sure you didn’t fill them with trash.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (540 hrs)
RV-10 (systems install)
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Jewell
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:27 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: engine loping
Filling the tank may have dislodged enough hidden building swarf to partially clog the fuel supply system.
Be careful, check filters etc.
Jim in Kelowna
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:27 AM
To: rv-list
Subject: engine loping
All I have to do to be ready for my DAR inspection is to calibrate my capacitive fuel probes. I taxied from the hangar to the fuel pumps (a few hundred yards) on half a gallon of gas and then filled the left tank. The engine ran OK on the way out. The plane has about an hour on it taxiing and the engine has always run smoothly. On the way back from the pumps with the left tank completely full, the engine wouldn't run at a steady speed. It kept dropping RPM with a period of about 2 seconds. If I tried to make it idle it would almost stop when the RPMs dropped. I tried changing the mixture and running on one or the other ignition, to no effect. It seems like a fuel supply issue. I didn't try turning on the electric boost pump (I have AFP fuel injection). I guess I'll try that tomorrow.
I can't imagine how filling the tank could have any effect, so this is probably just a coincidence. Any suggestions?
--
Tom Sargent
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject: engine loping |
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I see that you are in AZ. So am I. While i wouldn't rule out the possibility of some fuel line contamination. If you've got the strainers and the Airflow Performance fuel filter installed, I don't think that's the problem. It more likely that your engine got heat soaked during the fueling. When this happens, the heat boils the fuel in the spider distribution lines and results in an uneven / loping during ground ops. If your didn't use the purge valve and run the pump for 30 secs its also likely that this is the problem.This is particularly true and compounded if you have a plenum because it traps the heat in a smaller area while on the ground. We had 97 degrees here in PHX on Fri and that's plenty warm enough to cause what you're experiencing. I'm guessing Tucson wasn't far off. The boost pump / leaning won't help. I went through the same thing, and after speaking with Don # Airflow Performance (he's very familiar with this situation). I reduced the restrictors from .028 to.024, this causes higher pressure in the distribution lines which eliminated the problem for me. It was disconcerting, but it only happened during ground ops after a heat soaked engine.
Deems Davis
N519PJ
www.deemsrv10.com
On 5/23/2010 3:03 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: [quote] v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
This would be the first thing I’d look at as well.
If not yet done, you need to do a very through flush of the fuel system. Attach a cheap in line fuel filter and some tubing to the firewall fuel line and use your fuel pump to flush several gallons to a gas can. Shift tanks, shake the plane, etc. If you use a clear fuel filter you can see when you have clean gas flowing. This is also the time to do your fuel flow test (get more fuel flow than your engine can use) – say 20+ GPH flow using your electric fuel pump. Since you are running the gas through a filter it is ok to put it back in the plane and flush some more.
As you already ran your engine, pull any engine associated finger type filters and make sure you didn’t fill them with trash.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (540 hrs)
RV-10 (systems install)
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Jewell
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:27 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: engine loping
Filling the tank may have dislodged enough hidden building swarf to partially clog the fuel supply system.
Be careful, check filters etc.
Jim in Kelowna
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of thomas sargent
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:27 AM
To: rv-list
Subject: engine loping
All I have to do to be ready for my DAR inspection is to calibrate my capacitive fuel probes. I taxied from the hangar to the fuel pumps (a few hundred yards) on half a gallon of gas and then filled the left tank. The engine ran OK on the way out. The plane has about an hour on it taxiing and the engine has always run smoothly. On the way back from the pumps with the left tank completely full, the engine wouldn't run at a steady speed. It kept dropping RPM with a period of about 2 seconds. If I tried to make it idle it would almost stop when the RPMs dropped. I tried changing the mixture and running on one or the other ignition, to no effect. It seems like a fuel supply issue. I didn't try turning on the electric boost pump (I have AFP fuel injection). I guess I'll try that tomorrow.
I can't imagine how filling the tank could have any effect, so this is probably just a coincidence. Any suggestions?
--
Tom Sargent
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sarg314(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: engine loping |
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Deems:
I'm leaning towards that explanation. I checked the vent lines today (by connecting a tube to the inlets by the firewall and blowing into it) and both vents are definitely clear. I should have stopped taxiing and tried purging the line. I didn't do it again today because it was too windy out there to risk it.
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | I see that you are in AZ. So am I. While i wouldn't rule out the possibility of some fuel line contamination. If you've got the strainers and the Airflow Performance fuel filter installed, I don't think that's the problem. It more likely that your engine got heat soaked during the fueling. When this happens, the heat boils the fuel in the spider distribution lines and results in an uneven / loping during ground ops. If your didn't use the purge valve and run the pump for 30 secs its also likely that this is the problem.This is particularly true and compounded if you have a plenum because it traps the heat in a smaller area while on the ground. We had 97 degrees here in PHX on Fri and that's plenty warm enough to cause what you're experiencing. I'm guessing Tucson wasn't far off. The boost pump / leaning won't help. I went through the same thing, and after speaking with Don # Airflow Performance (he's very familiar with this situation). I reduced the restrictors from .028 to.024, this causes higher pressure in the distribution lines which eliminated the problem for me. It was disconcerting, but it only happened during ground ops after a heat soaked engine.Â
Deems Davis
N519PJ
www.deemsrv10.com
|
Tom Sargent
[quote][b]
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brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: engine loping |
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Have you tried leaning the mixture with the mixture control while taxing? I taxi with the mixture lean as posible.
B. Bell RV4 with IO320. AFP fuel system installed. Do not archive.
towards that explanation. I checked the vent lines today (by connecting a tube to the inlets by the firewall and blowing into it) and both vents are definitely clear. I should have stopped taxiing and tried purging the line. I didn't do it again today because it was too windy out there to risk it.
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | I see that you are in AZ. So am I. While i wouldn't rule out the possibility of some fuel line contamination. If you've got the strainers and the Airflow Performance fuel filter installed, I don't think that's the problem. It more likely that your engine got heat soaked during the fueling. When this happens, the heat boils the fuel in the spider distribution lines and results in an uneven / loping during ground ops. If your didn't use the purge valve and run the pump for 30 secs its also likely that this is the problem.This is particularly true and compounded if you have a plenum because it traps the heat in a smaller area while on the ground. We had 97 degrees here in PHX on Fri and that's plenty warm enough to cause what you're experiencing. I'm guessing Tucson wasn't far off. The boost pump / leaning won't help. I went through the same thing, and after speaking with Don # Airflow Performance (he's very familiar with this situation). I reduced the restrictors from .028 to.024, this causes higher pressure in the distribution lines which eliminated the problem for me. It was disconcerting, but it only happened during ground ops after a heat soaked engine.
Deems Davis
N519PJ
www.deemsrv10.com
|
Tom Sargent
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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yenduc(at)me.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject: engine loping |
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You might want to recheck the tightness of the fuel line connecters. We had a similar case today with a first start on an io 360 --- turned out a lose fitting was allowing a little air into the system -- tightened the fitting and the engine ran smooth--no loping.
good luck
dave
On May 23, 2010, at 3:55 PM, Deems Davis wrote:
| Quote: | I see that you are in AZ. So am I. While i wouldn't rule out the possibility of some fuel line contamination. If you've got the strainers and the Airflow Performance fuel filter installed, I don't think that's the problem. It more likely that your engine got heat soaked during the fueling. When this happens, the heat boils the fuel in the spider distribution lines and results in an uneven / loping during ground ops. If your didn't use the purge valve and run the pump for 30 secs its also likely that this is the problem.This is particularly true and compounded if you have a plenum because it traps the heat in a smaller area while on the ground. We had 97 degrees here in PHX on Fri and that's plenty warm enough to cause what you're experiencing. I'm guessing Tucson wasn't far off. The boost pump / leaning won't help. I went through the same thing, and after speaking with Don # Airflow Performance (he's very familiar with this situation). I reduced the restrictors from .028 to.024, this causes higher pressure in the distribution lines which eliminated the problem for me. It was disconcerting, but it only happened during ground ops after a heat soaked engine.
Deems Davis
N519PJ
www.deemsrv10.com
On 5/23/2010 3:03 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: | Quote: | This would be the first thing I’d look at as well.
If not yet done, you need to do a very through flush of the fuel system. Attach a cheap in line fuel filter and some tubing to the firewall fuel line and use your fuel pump to flush several gallons to a gas can. Shift tanks, shake the plane, etc. If you use a clear fuel filter you can see when you have clean gas flowing. This is also the time to do your fuel flow test (get more fuel flow than your engine can use) – say 20+ GPH flow using your electric fuel pump. Since you are running the gas through a filter it is ok to put it back in the plane and flush some more.
As you already ran your engine, pull any engine associated finger type filters and make sure you didn’t fill them with trash.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (540 hrs)
RV-10 (systems install)
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Jewell
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:27 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: engine loping
Filling the tank may have dislodged enough hidden building swarf to partially clog the fuel supply system.
Be careful, check filters etc.
Jim in Kelowna
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of thomas sargent
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:27 AM
To: rv-list
Subject: engine lopingAll I have to do to be ready for my DAR inspection is to calibrate my capacitive fuel probes. I taxied from the hangar to the fuel pumps (a few hundred yards) on half a gallon of gas and then filled the left tank. The engine ran OK on the way out. The plane has about an hour on it taxiing and the engine has always run smoothly. On the way back from the pumps with the left tank completely full, the engine wouldn't run at a steady speed. It kept dropping RPM with a period of about 2 seconds. If I tried to make it idle it would almost stop when the RPMs dropped. I tried changing the mixture and running on one or the other ignition, to no effect. It seems like a fuel supply issue. I didn't try turning on the electric boost pump (I have AFP fuel injection). I guess I'll try that tomorrow.
I can't imagine how filling the tank could have any effect, so this is probably just a coincidence. Any suggestions?
--
Tom Sargent
=======
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sarg314(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 10:19 pm Post subject: engine loping |
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Yes, I tried leaning it while taxiing. Â It had no effect. Â The engine isn't broken in yet and Aerosport says to run full rich, so that's what I've been doing. Â I suspect the problem was that I needed to use the purge valve+ boost pump to flush cold fuel thru the system. Â An air leak is a good possibility too. Â I have pretty much ruled out plugged vent lines.
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Bruce Bell <brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.net (brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Have you tried leaning the mixture with the mixture control while taxing? I taxi with the mixture lean as posible.
B. Bell RV4 with IO320. AFP fuel system installed. Do not archive.
|
--
Tom Sargent
[quote][b]
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:45 am Post subject: engine loping |
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IMHO full rich during break-in does NOT mean during taxi. Full rich
during taxi serves no purpose other than fouling the plugs. Just lean
enough to ensure the engine will stumble if any power is added, so no
forgetting to go full rich for takeoff.
Kelly
A&P/IA
On 5/23/2010 11:17 PM, thomas sargent wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, I tried leaning it while taxiing. It had no effect. The engine
isn't broken in yet and Aerosport says to run full rich, so that's
what I've been doing. I suspect the problem was that I needed to use
the purge valve+ boost pump to flush cold fuel thru the system. An
air leak is a good possibility too. I have pretty much ruled out
plugged vent lines.
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Bruce Bell <brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.net
<mailto:brucebell74(at)sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
Have you tried leaning the mixture with the mixture control while
taxing? I taxi with the mixture lean as posible.
B. Bell RV4 with IO320. AFP fuel system installed. Do not archive.
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Tom Sargent
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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sarg314(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:09 am Post subject: engine loping |
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To finish out this thread - I repeated the process I went through that started  it.  I taxied to the pumps, and let the plane sit there heat-soaking the engine while I fumbled around for half an hour calibrating the right fuel level probe. However, before I restarted the engine, I used the purge valve (this is an AFP installation) and boost pump to pump fuel through the system for 30 seconds before starting.  There was no problem taxiing back to the hangar.  So, I think the problem was just vapor lock that wasn't quite bad enough to stop the engine completely.
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Tom Sargent
[quote][b]
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recapen(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: engine loping |
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Thanks for closing the loop on this one.
Ralph
Just got back from a fuel injector balance data collection test flight - and getting ready to change the oil.....
More on that later.....
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