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Oil and Radials

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wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:54 pm Post subject: Oil and Radials

G'Day All,

  

 I received this article the other day. A "good oil"  article.

 Some of you have no doubt read this, but I thought  that it is well worth forwarding.

  

 Cheers,

 Chris.

  

 ---

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Oil and Radials

What article?

_________________
Milt

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:53 am Post subject: Oil and Radials

Why would 100 W not be appropriate for the M-14? I currently am running a multi-grade though..Phillips 25 W 60 semi-synthetic. Sounds like I need to back to AeroShell 100 W.  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wise

 Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 10:47 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Fw: Oil and Radials  

  

  

     

G'Day All,  

    

   

    

I received this article the other day. A "good oil" article.  

    

Some of you have no doubt read this, but I thought that it is well worth forwarding.  

    

   

    

Cheers,  

    

Chris.  

    

   

    

----- Original Message -----     

From: Ivor Paech (tmo34003(at)bigpond.net.au)   

    

To: Chris Wise (wise(at)txc.net.au)   

    

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 9:13 AM  

    

Subject: Fw: Oil and Radials  

  

    

   

    

Cop this and pass it on....!!  

    

   

    

And thanks for Friday night. You are getting the hang of it.  

    

Toof  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

----- Original Message -----     

From: Tracey McFarlane (tracey.mcfarlane(at)mcfarlane.net.au)   

    

To: wayne(at)tjhagencies.com.au (wayne(at)tjhagencies.com.au) ; tmo34003(at)bigpond.net.au (tmo34003(at)bigpond.net.au) ; 'Gary Bradley & Wendy Wills' (gary_wendy(at)internode.on.net)   

    

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 8:09 AM  

    

Subject: Oil and Radials  

  

    

   

  

No so appropriate for the little ones, but interesting anyway.  

   

http://www.precisionengines.com/pdf/oilBulletin.pdf  

   

   

       

  

www.avg.com 

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wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: Oil and Radials

Doc;

 Phillips X/C 25W60 is not semi-synthetic.  The  only aviation semi-synthetic that I know of is Aeroshell  15W50. 

  

 The Precision Engines letter was excellent in that  it explained in detail the reason for the caution notes in the P&W SB.   

 I totally agree that 15W50 and 20W50 should not be  used in radial engines (and I would include the smaller ones).  25W60 on  the other hand is probably OK for the small radials. It is nominally equivalent  to 120 at higher temperatures (60 SAE = 120 SUS) though this is probably  degraded by the ashless dispersant and viscosity modifier additives.  Maybe  the end result puts it closer to 100 SUS ?  Don't know for sure but the  P&W SB does recommend the use of a higher number with  additives.

   

 The only disappointment in the Precision letter was  no reference to the performance  of 25W60.

  

 Walt

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: Oil and Radials

This is old hat. 



It has long been known that the flat engine multi-grade oil has some additive for anti-corrosion (makes it cling to cam followers and the like for longer periods of disuse) that gums up certain things in M-14P engines (I think the compressor pop-off valve has been mentioned). Certainly, you don't want to use these oils, and that's probably what Precision is cautioning against.  

This does not apply to the Phillips 25-60 oil that was designed specifically for radial engines. It is mineral-based (not an AD oil) and can be used for break-in. It doesn't have the anti-corrosion additive that causes trouble. Aeroshell W80, W100, and W120 (these are AD-type with the red label) also seem to be fine. In Aeroshell, the straight mineral oil (80, 100, 120 with the blue label ) has to be used for break-in. The radial engine shops I know all like the 25-60 (Radial engines OKC, Tulsa, M-14P, Inc., etc).

I have noticed that some people with smaller Pratts (like the R-1340) use mineral all of the time, especially if they're nursing an old engine. Certainly, the Phillips 25-60 is very popular (the most common for old radials that I've seen). 

Some hard-core Russians seem to like to stick with the Aeroshell. Not that they had that stuff in Russia back in the day. I have heard that the main issue with them is that the flop tube in the oil tank has a seal that is formed by a coating of oil, and the 25-60 doesn't maintain that seal when the flop tube joint becomes worn. This only becomes a problem when flying torturous up-lines in unlimited akro (Sukhoi), and in high ambient temps, where oil pressure can drop off. Even this is debatable, and it certainly doesn't apply to 99% of us. 

My disappointment  with the Precision letter was their unfamiliarity with adverbs when choosing a slogan.



On Jun 21, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Walter Lannon wrote:

[quote]Doc;

Phillips X/C 25W60 is not semi-synthetic.  The only aviation semi-synthetic that I know of is Aeroshell 15W50. 

 

The Precision Engines letter was excellent in that it explained in detail the reason for the caution notes in the P&W SB. 

I totally agree that 15W50 and 20W50 should not be used in radial engines (and I would include the smaller ones).  25W60 on the other hand is probably OK for the small radials. It is nominally equivalent to 120 at higher temperatures (60 SAE = 120 SUS) though this is probably degraded by the ashless dispersant and viscosity modifier additives.  Maybe the end result puts it closer to 100 SUS ?  Don't know for sure but the P&W SB does recommend the use of a higher number with additives.

  

The only disappointment in the Precision letter was no reference to the performance  of 25W60.

 

Walt

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: Oil and Radials

Eric;

  

 Phillips 25W60 is indeed an Ashless Dispersant oil  the same as Aeroshell W80, W100 & W120.  Like those it also has a  pure mineral oil base.

 It's base oil is of a lower viscosity (SAE  25) so, in addition to the AD additives, it also has additives  to reduce the viscosity change with increasing temperature.

  

 I have used it in the R 1340 ever since it came on  the market with apparently excellent results.

  

 Walt 

 [quote]   ---

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: Oil and Radials

OK, thanks for clarifying the mineral base / but still AD thing. I know that usually, AD oils are a no-no for break-in, but this one is supposed to be fine for that, too. Not surprised to hear you like it. I use it on my M-14P as well, with no complaints. Once again, I think the Precision article is referring to the multi-grade oils for flat engines.

On Jun 22, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Walter Lannon wrote:

[quote]Eric;

 

Phillips 25W60 is indeed an Ashless Dispersant oil the same as Aeroshell W80, W100 & W120.  Like those it also has a pure mineral oil base.

It's base oil is of a lower viscosity (SAE 25) so, in addition to the AD additives, it also has additives to reduce the viscosity change with increasing temperature.

 

I have used it in the R 1340 ever since it came on the market with apparently excellent results.

 

Walt 

[quote]---

racemech11

Joined: 19 Oct 2009
Posts: 10

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Oil and Radials

I've been racing at reno now for about 13 years with the R-1340. We switched to Phillips 25 W 60 after about the third year and have had nothing but good from it. Our engines break-in in about a quarter of the time we used to see running other oil and I don't have to worry about changing a cylinder out and changing back to a break in oil. 



This is my second Yak, both 55's and have run both on the 25W60. I don't, currently have a clean kit, and seem to notice a little more oil in the drain pan than some other M-14 powered equipment that I have been around.



I know from operating the R-1340, it is a great oil and can stand a lot of punishment.

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: Oil and Radials

Walt my mistake. The Phillips site says it is equivalent to 120 ? Not much info on that site.  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon

 Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 10:38 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Fw: Oil and Radials  

  

  

     

Doc;  

    

Phillips X/C 25W60 is not semi-synthetic.  The only aviation semi-synthetic that I know of is Aeroshell 15W50.   

    

   

    

The Precision Engines letter was excellent in that it explained in detail the reason for the caution notes in the P&W SB.    

    

I totally agree that 15W50 and 20W50 should not be used in radial engines (and I would include the smaller ones).  25W60 on the other hand is probably OK for the small radials. It is nominally equivalent to 120 at higher temperatures (60 SAE = 120 SUS) though this is probably degraded by the ashless dispersant and viscosity modifier additives.  Maybe the end result puts it closer to 100 SUS ?  Don't know for sure but the P&W SB does recommend the use of a higher number with additives.  

    

    

    

The only disappointment in the Precision letter was no reference to the performance  of 25W60.  

    

   

    

Walt  

    

   

    

-- Original Message -----   

  [quote]    

From: Roger Kemp M.D. (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 6:51 AM  

    

Subject: RE: Fw: Oil and Radials  

    

   

  

Why would 100 W not be appropriate for the M-14? I currently am running a multi-grade though..Phillips 25 W 60 semi-synthetic. Sounds like I need to back to AeroShell 100 W.  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wise

 Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 10:47 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Fw: Oil and Radials  

  

  

     

G'Day All,  

    

   

    

I received this article the other day. A "good oil" article.  

    

Some of you have no doubt read this, but I thought that it is well worth forwarding.  

    

   

    

Cheers,  

    

Chris.  

    

   

    

----- Original Message -----     

From: Ivor Paech (tmo34003(at)bigpond.net.au)   

    

To: Chris Wise (wise(at)txc.net.au)   

    

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 9:13 AM  

    

Subject: Fw: Oil and Radials  

  

    

   

    

Cop this and pass it on....!!  

    

   

    

And thanks for Friday night. You are getting the hang of it.  

    

Toof  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

----- Original Message -----     

From: Tracey McFarlane (tracey.mcfarlane(at)mcfarlane.net.au)   

    

To: wayne(at)tjhagencies.com.au (wayne(at)tjhagencies.com.au) ; tmo34003(at)bigpond.net.au (tmo34003(at)bigpond.net.au) ; 'Gary Bradley & Wendy Wills' (gary_wendy(at)internode.on.net)   

    

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 8:09 AM  

    

Subject: Oil and Radials  

  

    

   

  

No so appropriate for the little ones, but interesting anyway.  

   

http://www.precisionengines.com/pdf/oilBulletin.pdf  

   

   

       

  

www.avg.com 

 18:35:00   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution   href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 	
0[b]

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: Oil and Radials

Doc, I believe the SAE60 part of the range (viscosity at high temps) would make it equal to 120, and low temp viscosity (SAE 25) would make it equivalent to 50 weight oil (very thin). A great thing if it works right, which it seems to.

On Jun 22, 2010, at 10:15 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

[quote]Walt my mistake. The Phillips site says it is equivalent to 120 ? Not much info on that site.

Doc

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon

Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 10:38 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Fw: Oil and Radials

 

Doc;



Phillips X/C 25W60 is not semi-synthetic.  The only aviation semi-synthetic that I know of is Aeroshell 15W50. 



 



The Precision Engines letter was excellent in that it explained in detail the reason for the caution notes in the P&W SB. 



I totally agree that 15W50 and 20W50 should not be used in radial engines (and I would include the smaller ones).  25W60 on the other hand is probably OK for the small radials. It is nominally equivalent to 120 at higher temperatures (60 SAE = 120 SUS) though this is probably degraded by the ashless dispersant and viscosity modifier additives.  Maybe the end result puts it closer to 100 SUS ?  Don't know for sure but the P&W SB does recommend the use of a higher number with additives.



  



The only disappointment in the Precision letter was no reference to the performance  of 25W60.



 



Walt

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