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l29delfin(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:34 am Post subject: Oil |
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I am aware of a number of Yak owners in USA that have recently experienced exhaust valve problems. In researching this it appears that a common denominator is Phillips multi grade oil. I am not stating that it is the cause. But, it is a possibility. The Russian Oil spec is MS-20 . That appears to allow for both the mineral oil Aeroshell 100 or 120 and also the ashelss W 100 and W120. Given that the engine has an oil screen and not an oil filter, the heavier detergent oils might take out to much and re-deposit this at the exhaust valves, carbon etc.
Based upon my research I would think that running with the straight weight mineral oil or the W oil would be ok. I know we think of mineral oil as break-in oil. But it matches the spec of MS-20 as does W100, 120. I would be interested in others opinions. Additionally, I would think that a few ounces of Marvel Mystery oil added per full tank of fuel might be beneficial to the upper end of the motor as well.
I would be interested in serious opinions. thanks
From: George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 9:46:46 AM
Subject: RE: Checking for leaks from F/R gear actuators
It is probably one of the check valves.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Miller
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 10:26 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Checking for leaks from F/R gear actuators
The leakage on my 52 has gone from a couple of days to one day from full to almost zero after removing and hydroing both air tanks.
I can't detect any leaks on the firewall or tank fittings. I guess the next suspect area is the gear selectors. What is the best way to detect a leak from these valves? I am about to do a gear retraction test on jacks and will use the front and rear emergency retraction as well as normal up/down.
Regards,
Scott Miller N6203Y
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wlannon(at)persona.ca
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:58 am Post subject: Oil |
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Phillips 25W60 is mineral oil. It has an ashless dispersant additive, same as Aeroshell W, etc. and a viscosity modifier.
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:05 am Post subject: Oil |
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Thanks Walt. You beat me to it. Many people don't know that Philips 25W-60 IS mineral oil and can be used from "birth to death" on the M14 engine.
Dennis
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bpx2horn(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: Oil |
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We have used the Phillips 25w60 on our three birds for about 2400 hours total since the Aerostars started flying shows together about 7 years ago. We have experienced no ill effects do to running multi viscoity mineral oil. I would also suspect that we run our motors harder than most people that are on this list do to the nature of our show.
Regards,
Paul Hornick
Aerostars
Left Wing
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radiopicture
Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:07 pm Post subject: Oil |
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Paul, I would agree, and I think the problem is actually with the flat engine multi-grades (20-50).
On Oct 4, 2010, at 2:20 PM, bpx2horn(at)aol.com (bpx2horn(at)aol.com) wrote:
[quote]We have used the Phillips 25w60 on our three birds for about 2400 hours total since the Aerostars started flying shows together about 7 years ago. We have experienced no ill effects do to running multi viscoity mineral oil. I would also suspect that we run our motors harder than most people that are on this list do to the nature of our show.
Regards,
Paul Hornick
Aerostars
Left Wing
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:33 pm Post subject: Oil |
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I have seen four M-14 engines now with exhaust valve problems. On three out of four, it was the number 2 cylinder. I am not sure why. One of these engines was my own. On the first repair attempt, the Indian Rope trick was used to resurface the valve seat. That trick worked just fine, except that some of the grinding compound got down into the rings with the obvious disastrous ending. One ring broke, and well, it was not a good thing.
Pulled cylinder, resurfaced valve the PROPER way, honed cylinder and replaced and regapped the rings and everything was fine.
Regardless, in every case that I have seen these valve problems, they have been caused by excessive LEAD deposits. Even when the valve guides were worn out, the oil did not deposit on the valves or stems and cause problems. Yes, the oil was being burnt, but the ashless dispersant did what it was supposed to do. And yes, every one of these engines was running Phillips radial engine oil.
What I did next is just what I happened to do, and is not a "recommendation". But keep in mind that my YAK-50 does not have cowl gills. It runs a straight open air flow directly to the engine, thus it is easy for the cylinder head temps to run cool. All my problems with leading on the valves happened when I first got the engine , when I thought I would take care of it by running it at low RPM and taking it really easy on that wonderful engine.
And then I noticed that the guys running their engines WIDE OPEN doing aerobatics did not seem to have these problems, and ... they beat the crap out of those engines.
So I decided to try that. On cross country trips I ran the engine at 80%. Sometimes 85%. I burnt more fuel, but I also got there a LOT faster. I also added MMO... more than recommended, into the fuel. All my problems went away. No more leading. Compression got better. I now have 800 hours behind that same engine and all compression readings are 80/72 or higher.
Again, I am not saying that this is right for anyone else. Obviously with no gills on my engine, running it at higher RPM keeps cylinder temps up. I think this helps with the leading problem. So, the lesson I think to be learned here is that exhaust valve problems are probably not caused by the oil, but instead by leading from the 100 Low Lead fuel. And it is NOT LOW LEAD by the way, but that is another issue. Obviously though, running an engine at low power settings and allowing the cylinder head temp to fall to low values makes this worse. How much Marvel Mystery Oil helped I have no idea, but I use it religiously to this day, and very rarely run the engine below 80% power. I completely believe that the M14 engine likes to be run hard.
Mark Bitterlich
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From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Mon 10/4/2010 12:02 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Oil
Thanks Walt. You beat me to it. Many people don't know that Philips 25W-60 IS mineral oil and can be used from "birth to death" on the M14 engine.
Dennis
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: Oil |
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Over the years I have found the #2 cylinder is always hotter than the other cylinders. For what reason, I have no idea. The temp. readings were taken each time with a laser temperature instrument right after shut down. I have also found exactly the same thing that Mark mentions....the exhaust valve on #2 leaking more frequently than all other cylinders cylinders.
Dennis
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