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mhubel
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141
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 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:46 pm Post subject: Aileron gap seal |
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Has anyone looked at the gap on the bottom of the aileron to see how much drag it causes. It would seem that on other aircraft much smaller gaps have been covered to reduce drag with significant results. Any reason it won't work on the CH601?
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_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com |
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paulrod36(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:52 am Post subject: Aileron gap seal |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Aileron seals would be a good idea, but, really, their only purpose would be to get you past Vne sooner. Granted, it's a slick, clean plane as is, but putting speed mods on it would only be gilding the lily. There's an old Chris Heintz quote, allegedly when someone was arguing some nitpicky construction point: "It's not a space shuttle, it's a tractor."
Paul R
[quote] ---
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mhubel
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:15 am Post subject: Aileron gap seal |
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Paul,
Interesting that you say it is a "slick plane", I find that I hit a speed wall at about 120 MPH. Even with the 120 HP Jabiru 3300 on it, getting much above 120 MPH is a very high throttle process and above 130 MPH is very full throttle.
Granted I don't have wheel pants on it yet but I did expect better. When I built it, I thought I could reasonable expect 115-120 knots (138 MPH) in cruse with the Jabiru 3300 working at 75%.
Are you saying that I should expect it to have less drag than I am experiencing?
On 11/11/2010 12:39 PM, paulrod36(at)msn.com (paulrod36(at)msn.com) wrote: [quote] <?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Aileron seals would be a good idea, but, really, their only purpose would be to get you past Vne sooner. Granted, it's a slick, clean plane as is, but putting speed mods on it would only be gilding the lily. There's an old Chris Heintz quote, allegedly when someone was arguing some nitpicky construction point: "It's not a space shuttle, it's a tractor."
Paul R
[quote] ---
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com |
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don.honabach(at)pcperfect
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject: Aileron gap seal |
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| Quote: | > When I built it, I thought I could reasonable expect 115-120 knots (138 MPH) in cruse with the Jabiru 3300 working at 75%.
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I’ve actually been trying to wrap my head around the performance numbers, etc.
Here are a few things that I think might explain lower performance numbers:
<![if !supportLists]>1- <![endif]>At ~7,500 feet (not sure if this is density or indicated, but my guess would be density), 100% power is equivalent to 75% power on engines without turbos. As such, WOT at 7,500 feet should be the approximately the same as testing at sea level at 75% power???
<![if !supportLists]>2- <![endif]>All numbers giving by ZAC are given at Sea Level. As such, you need to convert your Indicated Numbers at test altitude to True (i.e. TAS) to get a better feel for if you are meeting spec.
<![if !supportLists]>3- <![endif]>Van’s publishes their numbers based on flying at 7,500’. As such, they have a much better reputation of folks getting about the numbers expected. ZAC publishes numbers based on Sea Level (density not indicated) which most people can’t fly at in the real world to test.
With that aside, I would definitely look at wheel pants before messing with gap seals and the like if you are looking to gain some extra speed.
I’ve cleaned up my 601HDS fairly well although there are still some areas that need improvement and while trying to beat an RV-6A home (I know silly game!), I flew WOT at ~3,500/4,500 feet and was getting about 155 MPH TAS and about 140/145 MPH ground speed with a slight head wind. And yes, I lost the race, but almost won as I flew through Class B and he flew around.
Thanks,
Don Honabach
601HDS ~150 Hours
Jabiru 3300A.
From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Hubelbank
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:13 AM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Aileron gap seal
Paul,
Interesting that you say it is a "slick plane", I find that I hit a speed wall at about 120 MPH. Even with the 120 HP Jabiru 3300 on it, getting much above 120 MPH is a very high throttle process and above 130 MPH is very full throttle.
Granted I don't have wheel pants on it yet but I did expect better. When I built it, I thought I could reasonable expect 115-120 knots (138 MPH) in cruse with the Jabiru 3300 working at 75%.
Are you saying that I should expect it to have less drag than I am experiencing?
On 11/11/2010 12:39 PM, paulrod36(at)msn.com (paulrod36(at)msn.com) wrote:
Aileron seals would be a good idea, but, really, their only purpose would be to get you past Vne sooner. Granted, it's a slick, clean plane as is, but putting speed mods on it would only be gilding the lily. There's an old Chris Heintz quote, allegedly when someone was arguing some nitpicky construction point: "It's not a space shuttle, it's a tractor."
Paul R
[quote]
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paulrod36(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: Aileron gap seal |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> It is a pretty clean plane, and wheel pants would help, but your prop pitch has a lot to do with it, also. Generally, you get either good climbouts or good cruise, but rarely both with a fixed-pitch prop. There's a ton of talent and experience on this net, and I'm sure somebody will have your engine/prop combo, and has probably dealt with the problem. I think there's general agreement that wheelpants will give you some additional knots, and a few tweaks, assuming you have a ground-adjustable prop, might very well do it for you. Frankly, I'm envious of anyone whose plane is done. Whenever I get done, I may name it "Great Pyramid", or "Great Wall", or anything else that took years, and years, and years, and.... well, you get the idea. Hang in there.
Paul R
[quote] ---
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mhubel
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: Aileron gap seal |
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Don,
I do expect to put the wheel pants on first but I expected that this gap idea would take a long time to "hatch".
For what it is worth, I have tried working on the prop pitch and always correct for TAS.
I know that even the book numbers on production aircraft can be slightly optimistic but I am wondering just how much of a stretch the numbers published by ZAC are.
On 11/11/2010 3:06 PM, Don Honabach wrote: | Quote: | <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
| Quote: | > When I built it, I thought I could reasonable expect 115-120 knots (138 MPH) in cruse with the Jabiru 3300 working at 75%.
|
I’ve actually been trying to wrap my head around the performance numbers, etc.
Here are a few things that I think might explain lower performance numbers:
1- At ~7,500 feet (not sure if this is density or indicated, but my guess would be density), 100% power is equivalent to 75% power on engines without turbos. As such, WOT at 7,500 feet should be the approximately the same as testing at sea level at 75% power???
2- All numbers giving by ZAC are given at Sea Level. As such, you need to convert your Indicated Numbers at test altitude to True (i.e. TAS) to get a better feel for if you are meeting spec.
3- Van’s publishes their numbers based on flying at 7,500’. As such, they have a much better reputation of folks getting about the numbers expected. ZAC publishes numbers based on Sea Level (density not indicated) which most people can’t fly at in the real world to test.
With that aside, I would definitely look at wheel pants before messing with gap seals and the like if you are looking to gain some extra speed.
I’ve cleaned up my 601HDS fairly well although there are still some areas that need improvement and while trying to beat an RV-6A home (I know silly game!), I flew WOT at ~3,500/4,500 feet and was getting about 155 MPH TAS and about 140/145 MPH ground speed with a slight head wind. And yes, I lost the race, but almost won as I flew through Class B and he flew around.
Thanks,
Don Honabach
601HDS ~150 Hours
Jabiru 3300A.
From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Mark Hubelbank
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:13 AM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com (zenith601-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Aileron gap seal
Paul,
Interesting that you say it is a "slick plane", I find that I hit a speed wall at about 120 MPH. Even with the 120 HP Jabiru 3300 on it, getting much above 120 MPH is a very high throttle process and above 130 MPH is very full throttle.
Granted I don't have wheel pants on it yet but I did expect better. When I built it, I thought I could reasonable expect 115-120 knots (138 MPH) in cruse with the Jabiru 3300 working at 75%.
Are you saying that I should expect it to have less drag than I am experiencing?
On 11/11/2010 12:39 PM, paulrod36(at)msn.com (paulrod36(at)msn.com) wrote:
Aileron seals would be a good idea, but, really, their only purpose would be to get you past Vne sooner. Granted, it's a slick, clean plane as is, but putting speed mods on it would only be gilding the lily. There's an old Chris Heintz quote, allegedly when someone was arguing some nitpicky construction point: "It's not a space shuttle, it's a tractor."
Paul R
0 1 www.aeroelectriuilder's Bookstore www.buildersboobuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
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3 [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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|
_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com |
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Ron Lendon
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:41 am Post subject: Re: Aileron gap seal |
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| Quote: | | I expected that this gap idea would take a long time to "hatch". |
A quick way to test would require clean surface, duct tape, and thin plastic (mylar). Attach and go flying for a quick test of the numbers. Use the good duct tape...
I think the wheel pants, wing fairings and changing the rear turtle deck would have the most impact on speed after getting the wing/stabilizer incidence and prop set right.
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
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_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/ |
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mhubel
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:56 am Post subject: Aileron gap seal |
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Ron,
When I get back from some business trips, I just might try that.
On 11/12/2010 6:41 AM, Ron Lendon wrote:
| Quote: |
> I expected that this gap idea would take a long time to "hatch".
A quick way to test would require clean surface, duct tape, and thin plastic (mylar). Attach and go flying for a quick test of the numbers. Use the good duct tape...
I think the wheel pants, wing fairings and changing the rear turtle deck would have the most impact on speed after getting the wing/stabilizer incidence and prop set right.
--------
Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder 
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319095#319095
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--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel(at)nemon.com
978-443-3955
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
|
_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com |
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