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Novice Kolb Pilot
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Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

I have yet to fly my 2006 Kolb Firestar that I just purchased. Winter like weather has grounded it until Spring, which is fine by me. I'm a Private Pilot with four hundred hours in mostly Piper Warriors and Cessna 172's 152's 150's. I plan on getting some tail dragger dual time this Spring and then a lot of Crow Hopping in no wind conditions on a 6000' runway before I take my plane home to my grass strip.



    I would like some pointers, but only from 503 Rotax Kolb Firestar pilots with considerable experience in that airplane about flying this airplane safely. Things to do ...things not to do  !     Serious and to the point comments only ,Please.

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

prhoads61(at)frontiernet.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:13 am Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

You'll hear many support the idea, but crow hopping has been the demise of 

many over the years. Especially new tail wheel pilots in new to them 

airplanes. These airplanes have very little inertia and speed bleeds 

quickly. Crow hopping on hard surface with a new Kolb guy will probably get 

something bent.



Perry Rhoads

503 Firestar N2407A





---

donaho1(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:51 am Post subject: novice Kolb pilot

I agree with Perry. It is my opinion that it takes more skill to crow 

hop a Kolb then to just fly one. I would tie the Firestar down, and 

make sure it will develop full power. Then I would look for a nice 

grass strip on a calm day, and give it a go. When you land, approach 

fast and hold the FS one or two feet off the ground until it slows 

down and lands. Lanny FSII 503 DCDI

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Novice Kolb Pilot

HINTS TO SAVE YOUR BUTT  



1   Fly off of a grass strip, at least in the beginning.  Grass helps immensely in keeping the tail in its preferred position (behind you).  Fortunately, the Firestar has a fairly long fuselage and is not overly sensitive for a tailwheel airplane.



2   Push stick forward.  The Firestar has a high thrust-line for its pusher prop.  When you come back on the throttle, the nose will want to come up; so immediately the get stick forward to maintain airspeed or bad things will happen.



3   Get some dual time in an airplane absolutely as close in configuration to the same plane as you will be flying.  For you, this will be a Kolb Mark III.  If your intended dual time is in a Cub or Aeronca type airplane, FORGET IT. The Kolbs are wonderful airplanes but are extremely draggy and with very low wing loading they react MUCH differently than Cubs or Aeroncas.



4   Practice stalls and engine out landings with an instructor in the Mark III.



5   Congratulate yourself on choosing a fine airplane.  You are going to have a lot of fun, come spring.



P.S.  Steps 3 and 4 saved my life.  When I was in the beginning stages, a crow hop scared the crap out of me.  I drove to PA for a couple hours of dual instruction in the factory demonstrator that I credit for saving my butt when things began to unravel on my first solo flight.

_________________
Jerry King

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Novice Kolb Pilot

Thanks All who responded so far



Racer Jerry...I'm told this airplane is very easy to fly but has a peculiar temperament with it's freewheeling prop to really slows down quickly when you pull the power back on approachâ€¦â€¦â€¦ and it takes a steep approach 'stick forward' to keep the speed up. I did ride in a two seat Demo Kolb at Oshkosh...so I know it's sink rate is fast.

  So does a Kolb Firestar 503 need right or left rudder in take-offs & Climbs? 



   Regardless of it's idiosyncrasies I think it's a great design and I'm eager to master it and fly it safely.

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Novice Kolb Pilot

Thanks again,



 ..........To all who contributed good information and especially the AC90-89A from FAA.gov. . Looks like I'll have it all right in my 'minds eye' when this Spring comes around again.

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Novice Kolb Pilot

........She's a pretty one !

My new bird...http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N49WR.html



I just became the legal owner today according to the FAA

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:35 pm Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

Rudder on take off and climb? Because there's no prop in front of you, you can use a yaw string to determine, well, yaw. Just a small piece of yarn and a reference line (tape, Sharpie line, just has to be dark and thin) and your there. Ignore it on take off and keep to the center of the runway, after lift off it will be the opposite of what you've learned to do with a ball (step on the ball). Which rudder pedal you need to press depends on your prop, your redrive, whether the previous owner put a trim tab on and if there is a trim tab, how much it's bent. The nice thing about a yaw string, besides the cost, is that you don't have to think about it a lot, just keep it on the reference line. 



Rick Girard



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Dennis Thate <retroman(at)frontier.com (retroman(at)frontier.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Thate" <retroman(at)frontier.com (retroman(at)frontier.com)>

 

 Thanks All who responded so far

 

 Racer Jerry...I'm told this airplane is very easy to fly but has a peculiar temperament with it's freewheeling prop to really slows down quickly when you pull the power back on approach……… and it takes a steep approach 'stick forward' to keep the speed up. I did ride in a two seat Demo Kolb at Oshkosh...so I know it's sink rate is fast.

  

 

   So does a Kolb Firestar 503 need right or left rudder in take-offs & Climbs?

 

    Regardless of it' idiosyncrasies I think it's a great design and I'm eager to master it and fly it safely.

 

 --------

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

flypoker(at)windstream.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

I was in the same shape back in May.

I have a Firestar with 503.

My prior experience, 0 taildragger hours, 350 in a Challenger II, 50 in a 

Quicksilver 50 in GA planes and 2000 in Army helicopters.



I would recommend grass instead of hardsurface.

The GA taildragger may help with the tail dragger part, but not a bit in the 

landing an approach. The Kolb glides like a rock. If you get a little slow 

and flare at 10 feet, it will drop.



Get some time in a Kolb Mark III if possible, next after that may be a 

quicksilver, then a challenger or hawk.

I don't about the hawk, but the challenger glides much better than a 

firestar.



I did fast taxi on grass untill I was confident on the ground handling. The 

I took off. The first few landing, keep up the speed, keep and power in it 

and fly it to the ground.



Good luck, these are fun planes to fly.

Jerry

---

abumhoffer

Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 5
Location: Elkton, MI

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Novice Kolb Pilot

Get your dual time in an Ultralight or light sport tail dragger and fly it to the ground when landing. Al

_________________
Al Bumhoffer, Elkton, MI

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Novice Kolb Pilot

HINTSâ€¦(cont.)



6.   Perform a weight and balance check with you in the airplane.  Buy / borrow three cheap bathroom scales, weigh the airplane, calculate the center of gravity and verify that the CG is within limits as specified by the manufacturer.  Take care to eliminate any sideways bind at the main wheel scales that could distort readings.  I hope that you received the builderâ€™s manual with the airplane.  CG limits and W&B procedures are in the manual.



OR YOU CAN â€œWING ITâ€



If you donâ€™t have enough up elevator authority to flare for landing below 70 mph, you are probably NOSE HEAVY



If you enter a non-recoverable stall, you are probably TAIL HEAVY

_________________
Jerry King

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Novice Kolb Pilot

HINTSâ€¦(cont.)



7.    Insure that your airplane has the mass balance rods for the ailerons installed.  Flexing of the long torque tube for the ailerons opens the possibility of encountering aileron flutter.  During a high speed dive, it is often impossible to slow the airplane quickly enough before one or more ailerons separate from the aircraft.  The Firestar operates much better with ailerons attached.  Properly installed, and adjusted to balance the aileron, the mass balance rods eliminate flutter concerns.

_________________
Jerry King

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

 

  >Buy / borrow three cheap bathroom scales, weigh the airplane, calculate the center of gravity and verify that the CG is within limits as >specified by the manufacturer. 

 > Jerry King

  

 Jery,

  

   Important point about the W&B.  I don't think you need 3 scales, tho.  If a guy can determine the

 scale's thickness, and then come up with 2 "whatevers" of the same thickness ( blocks of wood, 

 telephone books, kid's textbooks) a guy could get away with just one scale.  

  

   Example;  my relatively accurate digital (bathroom) scale is 1 3/4" thick, and so are a couple of parts

 catalogs I've got.  By jocking the scale from one wheel to the other, trading catalogs as you go, 

 you could come up with a pretty darn good W&B.  (plus, using only one scale helps reduce error 

 factors from using multiple scales.)

  

   The primary concern is, of course, making sure the plane is always sitting in the same position

 per reading.  

  

   I still think you brought up an important point about the W&B.

  

 Mike Welch



 		 	   		    [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:49 am Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

If you enter a non-recoverable stall, you are probably TAIL HEAVY>>



And dead.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:55 am Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

Hi Dennis,

everyone else seems to be putting their five eggs in so here is my tip.

Remember what your first flying instructor told you "Open the throttle 

SLOWLY on takeoff"



If you do it too quickly, particularly with the tail still on the ground she 

will stand on a wing tip and dash off the side of the runway.



Hope you remember all these jewwls of wisdom come the Spring.



Good luck



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:33 am Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

<<The Kolb glides like a rock. If you get a little slow

and flare at 10 feet, it will drop.>>



Not so!  The Kolb glides perfectly well at an approptiate speed. What you 

are describing is a stall.



In that way it is unlike the Challenger which is much more forgiving and 

just mushes if the speed drops off



Pat

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:56 am Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

In that way it is unlike the Challenger which is much more forgiving and

just mushes if the speed drops off



Pat



Thanks for that info.



That explains why it is so easy to identify a Challenger pilot that has a 

bit of a hard landing.  They usually are sporting a cast on one or both legs 

from their toes to their crotch.  The injuries are usually the result of the 

hose clamps failing that attach the nose gear, followed by the pilots feet 

going into the ground as the nose of the Challenger is wiped off.



I have never flown a Challenger.  I have to rely on your expert advice.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

flypoker(at)windstream.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:38 am Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

Maybe my term flair was a bit much. My point is that the kolb airspeed 

bleeds off quickly. I am not one of those one plane is better than the other 

kind of people. Each has it's plus and minus. I didn't mean to imply that 

the challenger is better. I had a challenger, now have a kolb. Not because I 

thought one was better than the other, just ready for something different. I 

also have a Rans S12 I am building.

However "My" kolb glides like a rock compared the challenger I had. I do 

like the kolb, I am not cutting it down.

Jerry

---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:24 am Post subject: Novice Kolb Pilot

Maybe my term flair was a bit much.  However "My" kolb glides like a rock 

compared the challenger I had. I do

like the kolb, I am not cutting it down.

Jerry





Hi Jerry/Gang:



No problem.  You have a "flair" about you.  Could not resist.  



I was responding, primarily, to Patrick L, former Challenger owner/pilot.



I have been flying Kolbs since the first one I built in 1984.  I fly them 

because I have found nothing better that suits my style of flying. 

Crashworthiness is also high on my list of requirements for my aircraft.



Comparing Kolbs and Challengers...., as far as I am concerned, there is 

none, especially on the Kolb List.  I don't imagine Kolbs get high marks on 

the Challenger List either, if there is a Challenger List.



Too cold and windy to fly today for fun.



BTW:  I took advice from the List and bought the SS exhaust springs from:



http://jbmindustries.com/ROTAX.htm



I installed them a couple days ago with a good band of silicone seal from 

hook to hook.  They fit the Titan Exhaust perfectly.  Looks like they will 

outlast the old springs that are better at producing rust and failing than 

keeping the Titan silencer on the pipes.  Only operational hours will tell 

if they are as good as advertised.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

gotime242

Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 52
Location: West Palm Beach, FL

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Novice Kolb Pilot

I was in the same situation. I am a commercial pilot / fly a learjet 60 for a living and always wanted a small experimental type airplane. I got my tailwheel in a super cub, which is still completely different. 



I read up on the handling characteristics a lot, then just gave it a shot. As mentioned crow hops are a bad idea, as is starting from pavement. 



Keep your speed up, fly it to the ground. Come in with a little power each time (enough to make it seem like a normal approach in a cessna or something) and literally just fly the mains on. As you get better start reducing the power untill you can land at idle. Do not flare at 20 feet over the numbers, you will most likely stall. Keep you approach attitude untill 2 feet off the ground and go from there.



Hope this helps.

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