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Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

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BlueSkyFlier

Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

Greetings KIS TR-1 owners,



I recently bought a TR-1 (kit #30) constructed by Peter Webb here in the UK. She flies beautifully but can do with a slightly less coarse pitch prop.



I am seriously considering fitting a Prince P-tip (carbon fiber version). According to Lonnie Prince there are 24 KIS aircraft flying with Prince P-tip propellers.



Anyone out there who can comment on what pitch works well on the TR-1? ... engine power would be a factor in that equation I guess )) My tractor is an O-240 which supposedly cranks out 130 hp at 2800 RPM peak.



Would appreciate any input regarding your experiences with Prince P-tip props.



Thanks and regards,

                             Alfred

ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:04 pm Post subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

Congratulations, I enjoy my TR-1, kit #47. I also have the IO-240 B1B, they 

are rated 125 min. hp to 130 at 2800 I think. I have a wood Sensenich 69 x 

72 prop. and get 165 mph at 2550 RPM and 195 mph at 2800rpm at gross weight 

(1550#) for both speeds,  920# empty.



What is your static RPM and max. cruise RPM with the prop you have?



Tim

---

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:08 pm Post subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

My prince prop is gorgeous.  My prop arrived without paint on the tips.  I'd ask him to paint the tips white so you have a visible prop arc.  The FAA is big on that over here.  I painted my tips myself.

  

 Scott



--- On Mon, 1/31/11, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>

Subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 7:21 PM



 --> KIS-List message posted by: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com (bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com)>



Greetings KIS TR-1 owners,



I recently bought a TR-1 (kit #30) constructed by Peter Webb here in the UK. She flies beautifully but can do with a slightly less coarse pitch prop.



I am seriously considering fitting a Prince P-tip (carbon fiber version). According to Lonnie Prince there are 24 KIS aircraft flying with Prince P-tip propellers.



Anyone out there who can comment on what pitch works well on the TR-1? ... engine power would be a factor in that equation I guess )) My tractor is an O-240 which supposedly cranks out 130 hp at 2800 RPM peak.



Would appreciate any input regarding your experiences with Prince P-tip props.



Thanks and regards,

                              Alfred





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329151#329151

nbsp;  --> http://www.matronics.com/con=================





	


               [quote][b]

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:03 am Post subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

2/1/2011



Hello Alfred, Congratulations on getting a KIS TR-1. I think that it is a 

great little airplane combined with a TCM IO-240 engine.



I have over 300 hours on mine now (Kit #116) powered by a TCM IO-240 B9B 

engine with a 68 inch diameter, 69 inch pitch Prince P-Tip prop. I get about 

2,200 RPM during the early stages of takeoff roll and could exceed 2,800 RPM 

at full throttle at altitude.



You wrote: "She flies beautifully but can do with a slightly less coarse 

pitch prop."



I assume that you are looking for a finer pitched prop than your present one 

in order to get more RPM (and therefore more power) during takeoff and 

climb.



Can you please give us what RPM numbers you are seeing now and the info on 

your prop make, diameter, and pitch?



Any fixed pitch prop is going to be a compromise between climb (takeoff) and 

cruise performance, but one can bias in one direction or the other depending 

upon desired operating conditions. Keep in mind that regardless of what prop 

one is using the KIS TR-1 design is not optimized for short field 

performance.



'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to 

gather and understand knowledge."



PS: Here is a link to the TCM IO-240 B engine specification sheet showing 

125 HP at 2,800 RPM:



http://www.tcmlink.com/EngSpecSheetDocs/IO240B.pdf



=====================================================

From: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>

To: <kis-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 10:21 PM

Subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>



 Greetings KIS TR-1 owners,



 I recently bought a TR-1 (kit #30) constructed by Peter Webb here in the 

 UK. She flies beautifully but can do with a slightly less coarse pitch 

 prop.



 I am seriously considering fitting a Prince P-tip (carbon fiber version). 

 According to Lonnie Prince there are 24 KIS aircraft flying with Prince 

 P-tip propellers.



 Anyone out there who can comment on what pitch works well on the TR-1? ... 

 engine power would be a factor in that equation I guess )) My tractor is 

 an O-240 which supposedly cranks out 130 hp at 2800 RPM peak.



 Would appreciate any input regarding your experiences with Prince P-tip 

 props.



 Thanks and regards,

                             Alfred

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:04 am Post subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

2/1/2011



Hello Tim, You wrote: "I have a wood Sensenich 69 x  72 prop. and get 165 

mph at 2550 RPM and 195 mph at 2800rpm ......"



What RPM are you seeing static or early in the takeoff roll at full 

throttle? Thanks.



'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to 

gather and understand knowledge."



===================================



From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>

To: <kis-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:01 PM

Subject: Re: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Congratulations, I enjoy my TR-1, kit #47. I also have the IO-240 B1B, 

 they are rated 125 min. hp to 130 at 2800 I think. I have a wood Sensenich 

 69 x 72 prop. and get 165 mph at 2550 RPM and 195 mph at 2800rpm at gross 

 weight (1550#) for both speeds,  920# empty.



 What is your static RPM and max. cruise RPM with the prop you have?



 Tim

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:11 am Post subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

2/1/2011



Hello Scott: You wrote: "My prop arrived without paint on the tips."



So your prop had the carbon fiber visible over the entire prop when you 

received it and you just put paint on the tips leaving the carbon fiber 

exposed over the rest of the prop?



Thanks,



'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to 

gather and understand knowledge."



================================================



From: "Scott Stearns" <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>

To: <kis-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 12:06 AM

Subject: Re: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

My prince prop is gorgeous. My prop arrived without paint on the tips. I'd 

ask him to paint the tips white so you have a visible prop arc. The FAA is 

big on that over here. I painted my tips myself.



Scott

BlueSkyFlier

Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

Thank you kindly to all who have responded with propeller and performance information. Your contribution is very encouraging and will come in very handy when I have to submit the prop change for approval by the LAA (i.e. PFA) here in the UK.



My current prop is a Chris Lodge 66.5" dia x 69" pitch. Static rpm is 2200 and max rpm in level flight is 2500 at low altitude. However, with that 2500 rpm I see 140 knots IAS - not yet quite sure how accurate that airspeed indicator is -- or the rev counter for that matter ). The numbers don't really bother me either way, but I don't need numbers to tell me that the thrust at low speed is less than I want it to be. The aircraft makes that message quite clear when executing a go-round from near stall speed - especially if you haven't yet had time to raise 2nd stage flaps.



The supposed nose-drop tendency of the KIS2 was a bit of a concern, but can gladly report that in my case it seems to be a rumour.  In any case I have full oleo C172 nose gear fitted, just in case )) All in all the KIS's performance profile seems to fit me like glove. All landings (about 13) thus far have been dead stick glide curves onto short final.  Long straight powered finals have their use and place, but I avoid them if I can.



I agree with Hans Christian's comment about maintaining a fairly flat/level attitude until main gear touchdown. With the laminar flow wing the KIS2 does not like to have its nose pointed too far skyward and tends to bite back with a forward rotating moment if you do pitch it up too steeply, most especially so with full flaps deployed.



With one stage flaps she seems very mild mannered and that is my preferred landing configuration. Overall, I am quite happy with the handling, but would just like a little extra ooomph! when I push in the throttle for the odd bump or go-round.



Seems that my Chris Lodge propeller will be fine for long range high level cruising. So perhaps I'll keep that for the odd long trip and optimise the Prince P-tip for more performance at the lower end of the range.



Whilst I was evaluating the KIS type last year I read virtually every message on this board - way back into the 90's. It therefore feels as if I know some of your for quite a while already. Thanks for welcoming me to the fold. 



Happy landings to all.



Regards,

            Alfred

_________________
_________________________________________

BlueSkyFlier

Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

With specific reference to Tim's post earlier above ....



The performance I see with the Lodge prop equates directly to his results with the Sensenich and would seems to suggest that my inclination to opt for a larger diameter prop like his with lesser/reduced pitch is heading in the right direction.



Increasing the diameter allows for improving efficiency at low end airspeed due to reduction in the "advance ratio" - the latter being a fairly fundamental technical parameter in prop design.



So now to find the maximum diameter that won't strike the ground on a bad landing ) Are you guys aware of any regulations regarding prop ground clearance?  I suspect 12 or 13" would be a minimum.



So it seems that I'm heading for a carbon Prince P-tip in the range of 70-72" diameter and 67-65" pitch (with larger diameter corresponding to finer pitch).



Thanks for the help on this thread so far. 



Regards,

            Alfred

_________________
_________________________________________

ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

Hello Alfred,



I determined my prop length, 69", by measuring the length from the prop 

flange centerline to the ground with no air in the nose tire (simulating a 

flat tire)and subtracted an inch from that. I have 7" of ground clearance 

with air in the tire. I wanted the longest prop I could safely have. I have 

had my share of firm (hard) landings and have not touched the prop.



I remember Rich citing Vance Jaqua about how prop length was king. Rich, do 

you remember exactly how he stated it?



Tim



---

lgdavid(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

I had to jump in with a phrase that Vance Jaqua told me a while back 

when I was asking him about props.  "You should keep your prop as long 

as you can as long as you can."  I miss Vance and his wisdom on these 

issues.  It sounds to me like you are collectively coming up with some 

good information.  Larry



On 2/1/2011 4:32 PM, BlueSkyFlier wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thank you kindly to all who have responded with propeller and performance information. Your contribution is very encouraging and will come in very handy when I have to submit the prop change for approval by the LAA (i.e. PFA) here in the UK.



 My current prop is a Chris Lodge 66.5" dia x 69" pitch. Static rpm is 2200 and max rpm in level flight is 2500 at low altitude. However, with that 2500 rpm I see 140 knots IAS - not yet quite sure how accurate that airspeed indicator is -- or the rev counter for that matter ). The numbers don't really bother me either way, but I don't need numbers to tell me that the thrust at low speed is less than I want it to be. The aircraft makes that message quite clear when executing a go-round from near stall speed - especially if you haven't yet had time to raise 2nd stage flaps.



 The supposed nose-drop tendency of the KIS2 was a bit of a concern, but can gladly report that in my case it seems to be a rumour.  In any case I have full oleo C172 nose gear fitted, just in case )) All in all the KIS's performance profile seems to fit me like glove. All landings (about 13) thus far have been dead stick glide curves onto short final.  Long straight powered finals have their use and place, but I avoid them if I can.



 I agree with Hans Christian's comment about maintaining a fairly flat/level attitude until main gear touchdown. With the laminar flow wing the KIS2 does not like to have its nose pointed too far skyward and tends to bite back with a forward rotating moment if you do pitch it up too steeply, most especially so with full flaps deployed.



 With one stage flaps she seems very mild mannered and that is my preferred landing configuration. Overall, I am quite happy with the handling, but would just like a little extra ooomph! when I push in the throttle for the odd bump or go-round.



 Seems that my Chris Lodge propeller will be fine for long range high level cruising. So perhaps I'll keep that for the odd long trip and optimise the Prince P-tip for more performance at the lower end of the range.



 Whilst I was evaluating the KIS type last year I read virtually every message on this board - way back into the 90's. It therefore feels as if I know some of your for quite a while already. Thanks for welcoming me to the fold.



 Happy landings to all.



 Regards,

              Alfred



 --------

 _________________________________________





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329239#329239

ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?

That's it, thanks for the reminder.



Tim

---

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