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Tail Wheel Woes

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Ron Schreck

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 94
Location: Gold Hill, NC

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

Hi all,

 

I had an incident last week that really got my attention.  Upon landing,

when I lowered my RV-8's tail wheel to the runway the tail popped back

up suddenly and when it came down again the airplane made a sudden

20-degree left turn off the runway.  My neighbor was watching and he

said he saw the tail wheel spinning around 360 degrees (on the vertical

axis) after it bounced the first time.  Post-incident autopsy revealed

that the spring-loaded pin that locks the tail wheel was stuck in the

retracted position.  I removed the pin, polished it and carefully filed

the pin hole and lubricated the assembly.  It works fine, for now, but I

am concerned that the airplane veered so suddenly just because the tail

wheel was apparently unlocked at touchdown.  I would assume that air

loads would fix it in the trail position and once contacting the runway

that the castor would do the same.  I'm a little gun-shy now since I

can't explain why the airplane reacted as it did.  I would feel a bit

better if others have had similar problems and I would be really excited

if someone has a solution to my problem.  What say you?

 

Ron Schreck

RV--8 "Miss Izzy"

Gold Hill Airpark, NC

luckymacy(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

sort of...



without know how it affected them, the woodruff key is well known in these parts to get "stuck" if you don't take all the edges off and make sure there are no burs.  So I had more than one local RV builder tell me to take care of that problem before first flight. In that sense, you are not alone.



-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck(at)alltel.net> 



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi all, 

 

 I had an incident last week that really got my attention. Upon landing, 

 when I lowered my RV-8's tail wheel to the runway the tail popped back 

 up suddenly and when it came down again the airplane made a sudden 

 20-degree left turn off the runway. My neighbor was watching and he 

 said he saw the tail wheel spinning around 360 degrees (on the vertical 

 axis) after it bounced the first time. Post-incident autopsy revealed 

 that the spring-loaded pin that locks the tail wheel was stuck in the 

 retracted position. I removed the pin, polished it and carefully filed 

 the pin hole and lubricated the assembly. It works fine, for now, but I 

 am concerned that the airplane veered so suddenly just because the tail 

 wheel was apparently unlocked at touchdown. I would assume that air 

 loads would fix it in the trail position and once contacting the runway 

 that the castor would do the same. I'm a little gun-shy now since I 

 can't explain why the airplane reacted as it did. I would feel a bit 

 better if others have had similar problems and I would be really excited 

 if someone has a solution to my problem. What say you? 

 

 Ron Schreck 

 RV--8 "Miss Izzy" 

 Gold Hill Airpark, NC 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<html><body>
	


<DIV>sort of...</DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV>without know how it affected them, the woodruff key is well known in these parts to get "stuck" if you don't take all the edges off and make sure there are no burs.&nbsp; So I had more than one local RV builder tell me to take care of that problem&nbsp;before first flight.&nbsp;In that sense, you are not alone.</DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Ron Schreck" &lt;ronschreck(at)alltel.net&gt; <BR><BR>&gt; --&gt; RV-List message posted by: "Ron Schreck" <RONSCHRECK(at)ALLTEL.NET><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hi all, <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I had an incident last week that really got my attention. Upon landing, <BR>&gt; when I lowered my RV-8's tail wheel to the runway the tail popped back <BR>&gt; up suddenly and when it came down again the airplane made a sudden <BR>&gt; 20-degree left turn off the runway. My neighbor was watching and he <BR>&gt; said he saw the tail wheel spinning around 360 degrees (on the vertical <BR>&gt; axis) after it bounced the first time. Post-incident autopsy revealed <BR>&gt; that the spring-loaded pin that locks the tail wheel was stuck in the <BR>&gt; retracted position. I removed the pin, polished it and carefully filed <BR>&gt; the pin hole and lubricated the assembly

 . It w

 wse, C

LessDragProd(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

 	  Quote: 	
		  From the early RV-3 days, the tail wheel does NOT position itself "in  trail".

 
	


I have an RV-3 with a locking/full swivel tail wheel.  I place the  tail 

wheel lever in the locked position as I am turning onto the  runway.  When I have 

lined up on the runway, I kick the rudder both  directions to confirm the tail 

wheel is locked.

 

Just a little history.  Don't know if this helps you.

 

Regards,

Jim Ayers

 

In a message dated 05/11/2006 2:17:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,  

ronschreck(at)alltel.net writes:






Hi all,



(Stuff Cut)   I would assume that air

loads would fix it in the trail position and  once contacting the runway

that the castor would do the same.  I'm a  little gun-shy now since I

can't explain why the airplane reacted as it  did.  I would feel a bit

better if others have had similar problems  and I would be really excited

if someone has a solution to my  problem.  What say you?



Ron Schreck

RV--8 "Miss Izzy"

Gold  Hill Airpark, NC

bo124rs(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck(at)alltel.net>



I had an incident last week that really got my attention.


	


Ron, Kahuna had the same problem with his tailwheel upon landing at PKB 

during the clinic.  Same deal, I was with Speedy when we pulled the 

tailwheel.  A little deburring was done in Smoozer's hanger.  Clean it out, 

deburr and don't ding Miss Izzy, too nice of a bird.



If you guys don't know Ron, look at the pictures of the "diamond of 

diamonds" at vansairforce PKB clinic.  Ron is the right hand stinger at the 

tailend.  He is also shown in Kahuna's second flight video at the same site.



Good luck Ron,



Dana Overall

Richmond, KY i39

RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"

O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4

http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html

do not archive



_________________________________________________________________

Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 

http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

HCRV6(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

After some 200+ hours my tail wheel suddenly stopped locking.  when I disassembled it I found that the spindle had started to gall at the top and a fine sliver of metal had worked its way into the slot for the locking pin, very effectively jamming the pin in the retracted position.  After some careful filing and polishing of the spindle, the pin and the slot, and two tries, I think I have got it working properly again.  



I'm certain the original problem was caused by lack of lubrication at the top of the spindle.  As was reported several years ago on this list, just shooting grease into the zirk fitting on the housing does not guarantee that grease will get to the top of the spindle where it is really needed.  from now on I will disassemble and grease the spindle and locking pin at every 25 hour oil change.



For those tailwheel builders our there I suggest that you disassemble the locking mechanism and carefully smooth all the edges and corners of the locking pin and grease it well before reassembling it.



Harry Crosby

RV-6 N16CX, 209 hours



 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck(at)alltel.net>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi all,

  

 I had an incident last week that really got my attention.  Upon landing,

 when I lowered my RV-8's tail wheel to the runway the tail popped back

 up suddenly and when it came down again the airplane made a sudden

 20-degree left turn off the runway.  My neighbor was watching and he

 said he saw the tail wheel spinning around 360 degrees (on the vertical

 axis) after it bounced the first time.  Post-incident autopsy revealed

 that the spring-loaded pin that locks the tail wheel was stuck in the

 retracted position.  I removed the pin, polished it and carefully filed

 the pin hole and lubricated the assembly.  It works fine, for now, but I

 am concerned that the airplane veered so suddenly just because the tail

 wheel was apparently unlocked at touchdown.  I would assume that air

 loads would fix it in the trail position and once contacting the runway

 that the castor would do the same.  I'm a little gun-shy now since I

 can't explain why the airplane reacted as it did.  I would feel a bit

 better if others have had similar problems and I would be really excited

 if someone has a solution to my problem.  What say you?

  

 Ron Schreck

 RV--8 "Miss Izzy"

 Gold Hill Airpark, NC

mstewart(at)iss.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

Yes and it's the 3rd time in 200 hours I have removed the key, cleaned,

filed, and polished. Something is not right with this design but I cant

put my finger on it. ARGH!



Mike

Do not archive



--

alexpeterson(at)earthlink
Guest

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:26 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 --> <mstewart(at)iss.net>

 

 Yes and it's the 3rd time in 200 hours I have removed the 

 key, cleaned, filed, and polished. Something is not right 

 with this design but I cant put my finger on it. ARGH!

 

 Mike

 Do not archive


	


It would appear that we need a two wheel RV, given the problems with both

kinds of third wheels!



Alex Peterson

RV6-A N66AP 752 hours

Maple Grove, MN

rver273sb(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

Listers, I have 1450 hrs on my vans full swivel t/w. I had the inner sleeve rotate

because the grease zirk was not engaging the sleeve. Other than that. no problems.

Stewart  RV-4 

 

--

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

 	  Quote: 	
		   It would appear that we need a two wheel RV, given the problems with both

 kinds of third wheels!


	


Good one!  I guess designing the 3rd wheel is not the

glamor job of Van's engineering department.  Here's

how the meeting of Van and his engineers might have

gone:



Van: "OK, last on the agenda, any volunteers to

       design the third wheel?"



<silence - crickets chirping>



Van: "All right, you - new guy - yea, you.  Wake up!  ..."



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

lors01(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

These tailwheel problems are obviously the result of running the =

incorrect engine in your RVs.   The fine mist of Marvel Mystery Oil =

residue from my rotary engines' exhaust constantly bathes my tailwheel =

with just the proper amount of lubricant.  It has worked flawlessly for =

1550+ hours with minimal (zero) maintenance.   And that oily =

brownish-red streak down the belly just makes the plane faster.



Tracy Crook

13B Rotary powered RV-4 1550+ hours

20B Rotary powered RV-8  - Soon

Sense of humor  -  over worked



  ---

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

Tracy

 Is that the aviation equivilent of British rust proofing for cars?   

do not archive

Charlie Kuss

---- Tracy Crook <lors01(at)msn.com> wrote: 

[quote] 

 

 These tailwheel problems are obviously the result of running the =

 incorrect engine in your RVs.   The fine mist of Marvel Mystery Oil =

 residue from my rotary engines' exhaust constantly bathes my tailwheel =

 with just the proper amount of lubricant.  It has worked flawlessly for =

 1550+ hours with minimal (zero) maintenance.   And that oily =

 brownish-red streak down the belly just makes the plane faster.

 

 Tracy Crook

 13B Rotary powered RV-4 1550+ hours

 20B Rotary powered RV-8  - Soon

 Sense of humor  -  over worked

 

   ---

Jim Anglin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 47
Location: Independence, OR (7S5 Airpark)

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

I have Van's locking tailwheel and the pin on mine became stuck in the =

retracted position also, requiring some filing and fitting.  I noticed =

it when the rudder pedals were not effective turning off the runway.  I =

also don't think the grease fitting is effective in getting grease =

throughout the spindle.  I take mine loose periodically and lube the =

whole thing by hand.



Jim Anglin

HR II N144HR

DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
Jim Anglin
HR II N144HR

skylor4(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

It would appear that third wheel design at Vans' ranks

right up there with baffles and IO-360 induction

snorkels!



Incidently, the induction snorkel kit for forward

induction engines is the biggest joke I've ever

seen...right down to the half assed hand sketches in

the instructions.



DO NOT ARCHIVE!



--- Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>

 

 > It would appear that we need a two wheel RV, given

 the problems with both

 > kinds of third wheels!

 

 Good one!  I guess designing the 3rd wheel is not

 the

 glamor job of Van's engineering department.  Here's

 how the meeting of Van and his engineers might have

 gone:

 

 Van: "OK, last on the agenda, any volunteers to

        design the third wheel?"

 

 <silence - crickets chirping>

 

 Van: "All right, you - new guy - yea, you.  Wake up!

  ..."

 

 -- 

 Mickey Coggins

 http://www.rv8.ch/

 #82007 finishing

 

 

 do not archive

 

 

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 Admin.



 

 

 

  

  

  

 

 

 

 


	




__________________________________________________

lors01(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

For biggest joke, I vote for the supplementary instruction sheet on RV-8 =

fuselage QB kits.  It reads (and I'm not making this up):



 "Start at the tail and work forward."



I spent more time digging the necessary steps from instruction manual =

than doing them.



Tracy Crook



  

<skylor4(at)yahoo.com<mailto:skylor4(at)yahoo.com>>



  It would appear that third wheel design at Vans' ranks

  right up there with baffles and IO-360 induction

  snorkels!



  Incidently, the induction snorkel kit for forward

  induction engines is the biggest joke I've ever

  seen...right down to the half assed hand sketches in

  the instructions.



  DO NOT ARCHIVE!



  --- Mickey Coggins =

<mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch<mailto:mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>> wrote:

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

You guys are going to be in trouble when Jerry sees this!



Terry




For biggest joke, I vote for the supplementary instruction sheet on RV-8 =

fuselage QB kits.  It reads (and I'm not making this up):



 "Start at the tail and work forward."



I spent more time digging the necessary steps from instruction manual =

than doing them.



Tracy Crook



  

<skylor4(at)yahoo.com<mailto:skylor4(at)yahoo.com>>



  It would appear that third wheel design at Vans' ranks

  right up there with baffles and IO-360 induction

  snorkels!



  Incidently, the induction snorkel kit for forward

  induction engines is the biggest joke I've ever

  seen...right down to the half assed hand sketches in

  the instructions.



  DO NOT ARCHIVE!



  --- Mickey Coggins =

<mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch<mailto:mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>> wrote:

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

Terry Watson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



You guys are going to be in trouble when Jerry sees this!



Terry



  



LOL!!! good one Terry, I can't comment on something I don't know 
	


anything about. I don't have a QB or an

RV-8 or an RV with the third wheel in the wrong place nor do I have a 

full swivel tailwheel. Sounds like

I should be glad I don't 



 	  Quote: 	
		  -> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01(at)msn.com>



For biggest joke, I vote for the supplementary instruction sheet on RV-8 =

fuselage QB kits.  It reads (and I'm not making this up):



 "Start at the tail and work forward."

  



I don't understand the problem with those instructions sounds perfectly 
	


logical to me.  Having built RV-6

number two any instructions sounds good to me. I've said it before I had 

100 hours on my airplane before

I got the finnish kit instructions.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I spent more time digging the necessary steps from instruction manual =

than doing them.



Tracy Crook



  

<skylor4(at)yahoo.com<mailto:skylor4(at)yahoo.com>>



  It would appear that third wheel design at Vans' ranks

  right up there with baffles and IO-360 induction

  snorkels!



  Incidently, the induction snorkel kit for forward

  induction engines is the biggest joke I've ever

  seen...right down to the half assed hand sketches in

  the instructions.



  DO NOT ARCHIVE!



  --- Mickey Coggins =



  




	


Jerry

do not archive

don.wentz(at)intel.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

I've never had the pin stick in my full swivel in over 700hrs of use,

but like Jim, I take it off and lube it at least twice per year.  Never

had to file it or anything, just wipe off the old grease and smear on

some new.

Dw

N790DW RV-6 925hrs 

Do not archive



--

Nic(at)skyhi.flyer.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

Dan, Thanks for your feedback on the Bell tailwheel (mine has yet to

rrive)  - it sounds as though I will need to be vigilant on the maintenance.



In several yeas I have never once had this problem with my Pitts S1, which

can be a handful in strong conditions and is fitted with a Maule TW.  I

agree about tailwheel steering awareness - in this case I had a v. strong

crosswind and managed to control the roll out until the rudder became

ineffective, however the crosswind was far too strong for differential

braking without additional power and blew the plane towards the edge of the

runway - and therein lies the problem, as in order to keep her straight (I

had no passenger in the back) the tail lifted and I am sure you know the

scenario. I shutdown, had a cup of tea, and then got a guy to ride in the

back to the hangar, where we stripped the TW and found the problem, and now

all is well.



Anyway, my point is that the Vans tailwheel design or manufacturing should

be improved. In extreme conditions, it can cause pilots severe damage to the

aircraft, if it fails, as it regularly does without special attention. In my

opinion it is not safe (others have obviously had the same problems). I

think you will agree that a pilot that has spent several years building an

RV8, shouldn't have to find out the hard way, that a new tailwheel with zero

hours has a problem which "could" cause the aircraft to end up off the

runway. Rgds, Nic



 	  Quote: 	
		  The problem you saw would have occurred with Doug Bell's tailwheel fork as

well -- and while Doug's tailwheel fork is very nice (I have one), it's not

a cure-all.  It has the identical key/shaft design as Van's fork...in fact

you use Van's key with it.

That said, imho all taildragger pilots need to be prepared for the scenario

where they have no tailwheel steering on landing.  The plane flies just

fine, and you should have rudder authority down to a speed at which

differential braking is used (yet another reason to keep your brakes in

tip-top shape).  This may sound funny, but if the key ever sticks and you

lose steering, my 2 cents is to *take advantage* of that opportunity to

practice handling it -- before you fix it.  Maybe not a takeoff/landing if

you're not confident about that, but at least taxi around a bit and get the

feel for using only rudder & brakes.  That way you're better prepared if

and
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  when it bites you. Dan, RV-7 N714D (901 hours)

jrdial(at)hal-pc.org
Guest

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: Tail Wheel Woes

I had the problem caused by me not keeping it cleaned

and greased so I now take it apart every 150 hours and service it. I am

not familiar with Doug Bell set up, so would somebody send me his

web-site.

		Thanks

		Dick Dial

		N89DD



DO NOT ARCHIVE



--

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