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Matt Dralle
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Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26320
Location: Livermore CA USA
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ollie6a(at)embarqmail.com
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 Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:43 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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People also might want to check skyradar.net which I have running on
my Iphone. Works great for weather.
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> wrote:
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| Quote: | From Central Florida,
Ollie
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BGray(at)glasair.org
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:08 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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Hi Guys,
I already have all the equipment I need for ADS-B Out for my Glasair
III. But it seems that in its rush to get the regulation out to the
public, the FAA did not provide any path for Experimental aircraft to
install/approve ADBS-B.
The FAA has published an advisory circular on the subject (AC 20-165)
that states ALL ADBS-B installations must be approved before use. It
then goes on to state that approval requires an STC. It also broadly
hints that all equipment must be TSO'ed. You all must know that STC's do
not apply to us. To add further confusion, I was told by my local FSDO
that all STC's for approval were not being accepted and that the only
way to get approval was from the original aircraft manufacturer. I asked
the FSDO if we (the home builder) were considered the manufacturer and
was told the FAA felt that it was the kit manufacturer. I called the
EAA, they were clueless.
So, it seems that you (or we) can't get there from here. Any one have
any ideas?
Bruce
WWW.Glasair.org
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BGray(at)glasair.org
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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Hi Bruce,
I don't think the AC applies to us since it's only for those seeking
TC or STC approval--as you said, we don't have TCs or use STCs.
Which transceiver are you using? Display?
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 6:46 AM, Bruce <BGray(at)glasair.org> wrote:
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:33 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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On 7/5/2011 9:04 AM, Bruce wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Guys,
I already have all the equipment I need for ADS-B Out for my Glasair
III. But it seems that in its rush to get the regulation out to the
public, the FAA did not provide any path for Experimental aircraft to
install/approve ADBS-B.
snip
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| Quote: | So, it seems that you (or we) can't get there from here. Any one have
any ideas?
Yep. Install it like you want it .... and ask forgiveness later. The
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only thing I'd put into the 'must do' category is to make sure the
transmitted information being broadcast is accurate. There are already
a lot of ADS-B installations in experimentals.
Linn
[quote] Bruce
WWW.Glasair.org
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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To me, the section 1-1(b) says enough to move ahead. If you get it installed, and working properly, you're unlikely to have any worries. And the benefits of it are many.
Tim
On Jul 5, 2011, at 8:46 AM, "Bruce" <BGray(at)glasair.org> wrote:
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:47 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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Definitely make sure your transmitted info is set up correctly. Other than that, you'll want it to squawk the same code as your transponder....and if you have a gtx330 you're golden. Likely the same with gtx327.
Tim
On Jul 5, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
[quote]
On 7/5/2011 9:04 AM, Bruce wrote:
>
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I already have all the equipment I need for ADS-B Out for my Glasair
> III. But it seems that in its rush to get the regulation out to the
> public, the FAA did not provide any path for Experimental aircraft to
> install/approve ADBS-B.
snip
> So, it seems that you (or we) can't get there from here. Any one have
> any ideas?
Yep. Install it like you want it .... and ask forgiveness later. The only thing I'd put into the 'must do' category is to make sure the transmitted information being broadcast is accurate. There are already a lot of ADS-B installations in experimentals.
Linn
> Bruce
> WWW.Glasair.org
>
> --
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BGray(at)glasair.org
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:02 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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Garmin 530W, Garmin 330 transponder updated for ADBS-B Out, and a RMI
microencoder/air data unit. All are TSO'ed except the RMI air data
system.
I still believe it has to be approved because it transmits position data
to ATC. We just can't install and turn it on, at least that's what the
FSDO tells me. There is no in flight approved testing procedure in place
yet, and no one has the ground testing equipment to verify the
transmitted data blocks around here.
Bruce
WWW.Glasair.org
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:24 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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Another example of the FAA left hand not having a clue what the right
hand is doing. Your transponder and GPS are TSO. That means the position
information complies with the requirements. Your air data system has to
meet a different regulation, and I assume it does if it passes an IFR
static system check.
Too many FAA inspectors have no experience/training on experimental
aircraft side of the house, and rather than linking you up with someone
who does, try to bluff their way into making the problem go away.
Just read an idiot article today on the "new" air traffic system that
once again says ADSB/Next Gen will replace radar. If that were true, we
wouldn't be required to have either Mode A/C transponders or Mode S in
addition to UAT. The FAA wouldn't have gone to the totally stupid dual
frequency system. Also article said lots about airlines not wanting to
spend the money, without one mention of GA and who pays for that. Grump,
grump.
Maybe Das Fed (if he isn't too busy stomping out office brushfires) can
shine some light on the subject for us and send something off to the
author of the AC to remind them they need to deal with experimental
installs as well if they want the air traffic system to retain
integrity. Not that I want more fed involvement, but really is necessary
on something that affects all aircraft.
On 7/5/2011 8:00 AM, Bruce wrote:
[quote]
Garmin 530W, Garmin 330 transponder updated for ADBS-B Out, and a RMI
microencoder/air data unit. All are TSO'ed except the RMI air data
system.
I still believe it has to be approved because it transmits position data
to ATC. We just can't install and turn it on, at least that's what the
FSDO tells me. There is no in flight approved testing procedure in place
yet, and no one has the ground testing equipment to verify the
transmitted data blocks around here.
Bruce
WWW.Glasair.org
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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But all over that document it says "a position source meeting the minimum performance requirements of any revision of TSO-C129, TSO-C145, TSO-C146, or TSO-C196...)
So it says all over that it needs to meet the performance reqs but doesn't say it has to BE TSO'd. I won't go on further other than to say if it doesn't make you comfortable than don't do it. I doubt in today's financial climate they'll be equipping ramp checkers with the tools to test and verify the parameters, but I guess you never know. There are many people using such equipment today though, and the AC makes some awesome points. Some of the biggest things are single-entry-point code entry and things like that. So those things would be more worrysome because if you aren't squawking properly, then THAT is something that may be noticed.
Tim
On Jul 5, 2011, at 10:00 AM, "Bruce" <BGray(at)glasair.org> wrote:
[quote]
Garmin 530W, Garmin 330 transponder updated for ADBS-B Out, and a RMI
microencoder/air data unit. All are TSO'ed except the RMI air data
system.
I still believe it has to be approved because it transmits position data
to ATC. We just can't install and turn it on, at least that's what the
FSDO tells me. There is no in flight approved testing procedure in place
yet, and no one has the ground testing equipment to verify the
transmitted data blocks around here.
Bruce
WWW.Glasair.org
--
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:47 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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I think it's best for Experimental aviations future to install the stuff, do it to certified standards so it's done right and works properly/perfectly, and to NOT spend your time drawing attention by asking them (das fed) the questions in the first place. As we all know, there are too many who don't understand experimentals, and beyond that, different FSDO's interpret things differently. Many many questions can have a variety of answers. So long as that's the case, sometimes we're better off just doing things right and not inviting regulation by asking for clarification that could never be achieved without drafting newer, deeper reaching, regulation. It's tough enough as it is. ADS-B in isn't rocket science and it's not complicated to get a working system that will give you good traffic info and report your precise location exactly. Just read that AC and make sure you work to that level of accuracy and operability.
Tim
On Jul 5, 2011, at 10:21 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
[quote]
Another example of the FAA left hand not having a clue what the right hand is doing. Your transponder and GPS are TSO. That means the position information complies with the requirements. Your air data system has to meet a different regulation, and I assume it does if it passes an IFR static system check.
Too many FAA inspectors have no experience/training on experimental aircraft side of the house, and rather than linking you up with someone who does, try to bluff their way into making the problem go away.
Just read an idiot article today on the "new" air traffic system that once again says ADSB/Next Gen will replace radar. If that were true, we wouldn't be required to have either Mode A/C transponders or Mode S in addition to UAT. The FAA wouldn't have gone to the totally stupid dual frequency system. Also article said lots about airlines not wanting to spend the money, without one mention of GA and who pays for that. Grump, grump.
Maybe Das Fed (if he isn't too busy stomping out office brushfires) can shine some light on the subject for us and send something off to the author of the AC to remind them they need to deal with experimental installs as well if they want the air traffic system to retain integrity. Not that I want more fed involvement, but really is necessary on something that affects all aircraft.
On 7/5/2011 8:00 AM, Bruce wrote:
>
>
> Garmin 530W, Garmin 330 transponder updated for ADBS-B Out, and a RMI
> microencoder/air data unit. All are TSO'ed except the RMI air data
> system.
>
> I still believe it has to be approved because it transmits position data
> to ATC. We just can't install and turn it on, at least that's what the
> FSDO tells me. There is no in flight approved testing procedure in place
> yet, and no one has the ground testing equipment to verify the
> transmitted data blocks around here.
>
> Bruce
> WWW.Glasair.org
>
> --
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dmaib(at)mac.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: ADS-B Transceiver... |
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Wise words from Tim, IMHO
David Maib
40559
Flying
On Jul 5, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
[quote]
I think it's best for Experimental aviations future to install the
stuff, do it to certified standards so it's done right and works
properly/perfectly, and to NOT spend your time drawing attention by
asking them (das fed) the questions in the first place. As we all
know, there are too many who don't understand experimentals, and
beyond that, different FSDO's interpret things differently. Many
many questions can have a variety of answers. So long as that's
the case, sometimes we're better off just doing things right and
not inviting regulation by asking for clarification that could
never be achieved without drafting newer, deeper reaching,
regulation. It's tough enough as it is. ADS-B in isn't rocket
science and it's not complicated to get a working system that will
give you good traffic info and report your precise location
exactly. Just read that AC and make sure you work to that level of
accuracy and operability.
Tim
On Jul 5, 2011, at 10:21 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
wrote:
>
>
> Another example of the FAA left hand not having a clue what the
> right hand is doing. Your transponder and GPS are TSO. That means
> the position information complies with the requirements. Your air
> data system has to meet a different regulation, and I assume it
> does if it passes an IFR static system check.
> Too many FAA inspectors have no experience/training on
> experimental aircraft side of the house, and rather than linking
> you up with someone who does, try to bluff their way into making
> the problem go away.
> Just read an idiot article today on the "new" air traffic system
> that once again says ADSB/Next Gen will replace radar. If that
> were true, we wouldn't be required to have either Mode A/C
> transponders or Mode S in addition to UAT. The FAA wouldn't have
> gone to the totally stupid dual frequency system. Also article
> said lots about airlines not wanting to spend the money, without
> one mention of GA and who pays for that. Grump, grump.
> Maybe Das Fed (if he isn't too busy stomping out office
> brushfires) can shine some light on the subject for us and send
> something off to the author of the AC to remind them they need to
> deal with experimental installs as well if they want the air
> traffic system to retain integrity. Not that I want more fed
> involvement, but really is necessary on something that affects all
> aircraft.
>
> On 7/5/2011 8:00 AM, Bruce wrote:
>>
>>
>> Garmin 530W, Garmin 330 transponder updated for ADBS-B Out, and a
>> RMI
>> microencoder/air data unit. All are TSO'ed except the RMI air data
>> system.
>>
>> I still believe it has to be approved because it transmits
>> position data
>> to ATC. We just can't install and turn it on, at least that's
>> what the
>> FSDO tells me. There is no in flight approved testing procedure
>> in place
>> yet, and no one has the ground testing equipment to verify the
>> transmitted data blocks around here.
>>
>> Bruce
>> WWW.Glasair.org
>>
>> --
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