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stickandrudder1(at)comcas
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 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:19 am Post subject: P-Mag Switch(s) |
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I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the engine is running.
I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead.
What have others done?
Thanks in advance.
[quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:52 am Post subject: P-Mag Switch(s) |
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At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
| Quote: | I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the engine is running.
I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead. |
[img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20110724134036.035240d0(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img]
Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations
for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer'
Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this
compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in
the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram.
Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is
powered and stays powered until you move the switch to
OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate
the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose
off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal
flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag.
When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF
removes power from the Emag.
Bob . . .
| Quote: | What have others done?
Thanks in advance.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/24/11 |
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: P-Mag Switch(s) |
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| Quote: | The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until
the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to
start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and
on while the engine is running.
|
Hmmm . . . I'm a bit surprised at this statement in
the P-Mag manual. P-Mag generates its own operating
power internally. The prohibition for powering down
an E-Mag was to avoid unpredictable behaviors if
the microprocessor were un-powered and then re-powered
while the engine was running.
The intuitive narration suggests that since the
internal and external power sources are automatic
switched back-ups for each other, removal of battery
power after the engine is running should be a seamless
event.
If were a concern with the P-Mag, there would also
be a note suggesting that if battery power fails
at any time in flight, the pilot should avoid allowing
it to spontaneously restore. I'll email Brad and double
check on this. Need to update with those guys anyhow.
It's been too long.
Bob . . .
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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:24 am Post subject: P-Mag Switch(s) |
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It appears to me the question is about P-mags, but Bob's answer is for the E-mags. The difference may be suttle but the operation is not (in my opinion). The Emagair website as a FAQ section. In it, it describes how to test that the P-mag is generating it's own power. It suggests pullling the P-mag breaker while running only on the Pmag to see if the engine keeps running etc. This is contrary to what the original poster wrote about Emagair's recommendation.
FWIW, I don't believe Emagair is selling the E-mag version anymore. P-mag is the way to go. Perhaps the documentation needs to be updated?
Bevan
Waiting for my P-mags to arrive in the mail. 
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 11:49 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
| Quote: | I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the engine is running.
I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead. |
[img]cid:078130819(at)24072011-2DF1[/img]
Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations
for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer'
Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this
compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in
the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram.
Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is
powered and stays powered until you move the switch to
OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate
the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose
off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal
flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag.
When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF
removes power from the Emag.
Bob . . .
| Quote: | What have others done?
Thanks in advance.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/24/11 |
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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stickandrudder1(at)comcas
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:32 am Post subject: P-Mag Switch(s) |
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Agreed. However it’s my understanding (based on what I’ve read; and so maybe accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the standard mag on and off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when operating along side a PMAG, and since there is no way to ground the P-Lead without also turning the power off you can’t get there with one switch.
Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question.
Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be able to turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding the P-Lead), and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine remains running (hopefully with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 2:49 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the engine is running.
I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CC4A16.7F4E36F0[/img]
Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations
for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer'
Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this
compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in
the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram.
Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is
powered and stays powered until you move the switch to
OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate
the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose
off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal
flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag.
When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF
removes power from the Emag.
Bob . . .
What have others done?
Thanks in advance. | Quote: | | AeroElectric-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -http://forums.matronics.com- List Contribution Web Site --Matt Dralle, List Admin. |
01
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/24/11
Bob . . .
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stickandrudder1(at)comcas
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:48 am Post subject: P-Mag Switch(s) |
|
|
Meant P-MAG in the post below.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Zimmer
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:30 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
Agreed. However it’s my understanding (based on what I’ve read; and so maybe accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the standard mag on and off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when operating along side a PMAG, and since there is no way to ground the P-Lead without also turning the power off you can’t get there with one switch.
Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question.
Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be able to turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding the P-Lead), and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine remains running (hopefully with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 2:49 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the engine is running.
I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CC4A18.75C6DFE0[/img]
Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations
for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer'
Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this
compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in
the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram.
Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is
powered and stays powered until you move the switch to
OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate
the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose
off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal
flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag.
When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF
removes power from the Emag.
Bob . . .
What have others done?
Thanks in advance. | Quote: | | AeroElectric-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -http://forums.matronics.com- List Contribution Web Site --Matt Dralle, List Admin. |
01
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/24/11
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: P-Mag Switch(s) |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject: P-Mag Switch(s) |
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At 02:43 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
| Quote: | Meant P-MAG in the post below.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [ mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Paul Zimmer
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:30 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: P-Mag Switch(s)
Agreed. However it’s my understanding (based on what I’ve read; and so maybe accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the standard mag on and off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when operating along side a PMAG, and since there is no way to ground the P-Lead without also turning the power off you can’t get there with one switch.
Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question.
Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be able to turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding the P-Lead), and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine remains running (hopefully with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed. |
Check the wiring for Z-13/8 . . . while the E-mag Air ignition
is labeled E-mag, the only difference between p and e-mags is
that removing DC power from the e-version will cause it
to shut down. However, when wired with the 2-10 switch as shown,
you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to the
electronics. In other words, as far as your pre-flight ignition
tests go, you can accomplish ignition integrity tests during
run up whether you have an e-mag or p-mag installed.
The question becomes how to test the internal power generation
system of a p-mag. If the builder uses breakers on the panel
(a la Lightspeed) or an additional switch in the power path,
then you can do it with a high degree of convenience . . .
I spent several hours in Emag's shops a few years ago. Brad
and I discussed the single 2-10, single switch, battery-bus
fed architecture of Z-13/8.
Brad advised me that the reliability of this feature is so
high that one could do it periodically, like every oil change
or plug cleaning task. But you do need to pull the battery bus fuse,
open the battery bus breaker, or ADD some power interruption
feature that can be exercised with the engine running. This could
be a spring-loaded, normally-closed toggle switch . . . perhaps
out of sight even but accessible from the cockpit.
In any case, I do recommend that the e or p-mag be powered from
the battery bus . . . turning of the master should have no
effect on things needed to keep the engine running.
I've had some builders worry about that 'inaccessible fuse'
on the battery bus. The p-mag supplies 100% of internal power
needs above 2000 rpm. An e-mag draws only 0.8 amps max at
cruise.
[img]cid:.0[/img]
So a 5A feeder off the battery is exceedingly robust. If you
pop that fuse, something is so badly wrong that the ability
to replace the fuse or reset a breaker has about 1 chance in
a thousand of restoring usefulness of that ignition system.
If you routinely start with the magneto off that power path
gets tested at each engine start. If you have dual p-mags, then
develop a habit of starting on alternate ignition systems.
The mag-drop thing is another set of simple ideas. The reasons
that you see a drop in engine RPM when killing one mag are
these: Cylinders in an aircraft engine are pretty big in
diameter. The compressed mixture is normally lit off on both
sides of a cylinder by the upper and lower plugs. At low manifold
(and lower cylinder pressures, the flame front across the top
of the cylinder is significantly slower than at full power (high)
pressures.
When you turn off one ignition source, the flame front starting
at the sparked plug has to travel all the way across the cylinder.
Normally, two flame fronts meet in the middle in half the time.
Single ignition has the net effect of RETARDING the timing of
the ignition and the engine slows. The actual amount of 'mag drop'
is not terribly significant . . . but it's useful to note that
they are identical. This verifies that the timing for the two
mags agree with each other. It has no other significance with
respect to ignition integrity or reliability.
Electronic ignitions are automatically advanced in response
to manifold pressures and engine rpm. When two electronic
ignitions are installed, you may not observe any 'mag drop'
when killing one of the two systems. When you have one electronic
and one mag, you may see very little no drop when the mag
ignition is shut off and the usually expected 'mag drop' when
the electronic ignition is shut off. This is because they
are never timed together except during full power ops. All
other times the mag lags the electronic ignition by a
significant interval of crank rotation.
But Z-13/8 is correct as shown for either Emag product.
Bob . . .
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stickandrudder1(at)comcas
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: P-Mag Switch(s) |
|
|
Mystery solved. I’ve been basing my P-Mag switch on Z-13/8K. Based on your statement below “However, when wired with the 2-10 switch as shown, you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to the electronics.”, which I knew to be inaccurate insofar as the schematic I was looking at was concerned, I decided to see if I was looking at Z-13/8Q, and alas I wasn’t. Schematic Z-13/8Q changed the configuration of the 2-10, and in this configuration, it will do what is needed.
Thanks for your help and for the other explanations below.
Paul
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 9:11 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 02:43 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
Meant P-MAG in the post below.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [ mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Paul Zimmer
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:30 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s)
Agreed. However its my understanding (based on what Ive read; and so maybe accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the standard mag on and off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when operating along side a PMAG, and since there is no way to ground the P-Lead without also turning the power off you cant get there with one switch.
Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question.
Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be able to turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding the P-Lead), and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine remains running (hopefully with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed.
Check the wiring for Z-13/8 . . . while the E-mag Air ignition
is labeled E-mag, the only difference between p and e-mags is
that removing DC power from the e-version will cause it
to shut down. However, when wired with the 2-10 switch as shown,
you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to the
electronics. In other words, as far as your pre-flight ignition
tests go, you can accomplish ignition integrity tests during
run up whether you have an e-mag or p-mag installed.
The question becomes how to test the internal power generation
system of a p-mag. If the builder uses breakers on the panel
(a la Lightspeed) or an additional switch in the power path,
then you can do it with a high degree of convenience . . .
I spent several hours in Emag's shops a few years ago. Brad
and I discussed the single 2-10, single switch, battery-bus
fed architecture of Z-13/8.
Brad advised me that the reliability of this feature is so
high that one could do it periodically, like every oil change
or plug cleaning task. But you do need to pull the battery bus fuse,
open the battery bus breaker, or ADD some power interruption
feature that can be exercised with the engine running. This could
be a spring-loaded, normally-closed toggle switch . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:42 pm Post subject: P-Mag Switch(s) |
|
|
At 09:56 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote:
| Quote: | Mystery solved. I’ve been basing my P-Mag switch on Z-13/8K. Based on your statement below “However, when wired with the 2-10 switch as shown, you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to the electronics.”, which I knew to be inaccurate insofar as the schematic I was looking at was concerned, I decided to see if I was looking at Z-13/8Q, and alas I wasn’t. Schematic Z-13/8Q changed the configuration of the 2-10, and in this configuration, it will do what is needed.
Thanks for your help and for the other explanations below. |
Yup, it do make a difference. Z-13/8K was
the drawing that started our discussions with
Brad and friends some years ago . . . and
prompted the update.
Bob . . . [quote][b]
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