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Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

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peterthomson

Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 41
Location: Thailand

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:44 am Post subject: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

I am with Ross on this (after initial scepticism with the oil).



My oil analyses on second oil change of Plus 4 best ever in 700 hrs.



Peter

CH701/912ULS

  [quote][b]

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

What had you been using before?

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

Hi Ron,



It's been a while. How have you been? In the air much? Come on over to Ryan and I'll buy you breakfast. You should come to The Page, AZ Fly-In this year too. We have some others that fly your cruise speed. We may have sold out on reservation, maybe 1-2 rooms left. Give me a call.



One issue with Aero Shell with me is, when a company with as little time on the market as Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 has and then they say they are going to completely reformulate (new base stock and double the ZDDP), well that has my full attention as to why they think they need to completely 

re-formulate their own product.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:37 am Post subject: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

Roger,

  This ZDDP thing is a big deal in the old British and American car  world. It was added to the oil as a sacrificial wear molecule for flat  tappet engines.(modern engines have a different design) Without it the cam  lobes wear at a high rate.

  The motor oil industry has recently reformulated the motor oils to  include less ZDDP because of its effects on the catalytic converter. As a result  of this you either have to find an oil that still has the higher amounts of  ZDDP(such as Valvoline one racing oil) or add it yourself. In my  case I am using Castrol 20-50 in my Triumph TR3 but now add a small  bottle of ZDDP at each oil change.

  It is interesting to note that the articles I have read about the  subject fail to mention that ZDDP in high amounts  is necessary for  anything other than lifter/cam lobe scuffing. If it is necessary for the gear  train/slipper clutch and Aeroshell Plus 4 is deficient in ZDDP you could  always add it to the oil. In my case I don't have a slipper clutch and is  ZDDP necessary for the gears OR for the cam /valve scuffing.

  I have a couple of cases of Aeroshell plus 4 and would be adverse to  getting rid of it because it has worked out to be a very good oil.(won't really  know till overhaul)None of the other oils were made specifically for the Rotax  as Plus 4 was. IF it turns out that in fact more ZDDP is necessary (and if  in fact the other oil has it) well..I always have the little bottles of ZDDP  available to add in the proper ratio  until the oil is  reformulated.

                                                  Dick Maddux

                                                  Kitfox 4

                                                  912UL

 [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

Hi Dick,



How have you been?



Your exactly right about the use of ZDDP in older cars and the fact that when catalytic converters came out it had to be reduced because it trashed the converter, plus the EPA wanted reduced levels. So car oils came down to approximately 800ppm. This is the exact reason we don't use car oils in our Rotax. So why use a motorcycle oil with car level ZDDP? Older cars still need it for the flat tappet lifters. The big issue here is that Rotax 912 engines use flat tappet lifters. The auto industry responded and designed roller cam shafts and don't need all the ZDDP. Without enough ZDDP flat tappet lifters wear out much faster and can gall. There is a lot of stress on flat tappet lifters. Now let's toss in a gearbox that shares our oil. The cars didn't have to worry about the gearbox part. Motorcycle's like our Rotax shares it's engine oil with the engine. The gearbox has a very high mechanical action on the oil's shear properties and very close tolerances as it should, but without the proper levels of ZDDP then you will have excessive gear wear and galling. The ZDDP is a sacrificial coating to prevent this. If you doubt any of this there are thousands of pages of research to back this up on the web. We need to have around 1500ppm to protect our flat tappet lifters and gearbox. Zinc is not necessarily the important part, but the phosphorus is what makes it adhere to the metal. Now ZDDP is just one additive we need so you also need to look at the oil's total additive package.



Dick,



So to answer your question the clutch isn't the important part so if you have one or not it isn't really the issue. The issue is protecting the gears, lifters and other metal to meat close tolerance parts. You may be on to something if you add a little on the side, but I wouldn't get carried away with the ZDDP additive. Too much probably isn't good either.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:19 am Post subject: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

Hi Roger,

  Good info, however you should update your knowledge base. the SM 

grade oils these days are quite a bit less than 800ppm. Even the 

diesel oils these days are way below the 1500ppm that most all 

engines require. The general rule is avoid SM oils and try to find SL 

oils for your car or just add the ZDDP to what ever SM oil you like. 

Optionally use an oil that meets the Euro standard instead of API 

standards.  That test standard is ACEA and grade E7/E5 would be ok 

instead of  SM only oils.

For the Rotax the Motorcycle oils are high in ZDDP due to the 

requirements for gear lube. Always consult the Rotax bulletin for 

acceptable oils. Experimentation on oils is not good.

PaulW

=============

At 07:55 AM 8/23/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Dick,



How have you been?



Your exactly right about the use of ZDDP in older cars and the fact 

that when catalytic converters came out it had to be reduced because 

it trashed the converter, plus the EPA wanted reduced levels. So car 

oils came down to approximately 800ppm. This is the exact reason we 

don't use car oils in our Rotax. So why use a motorcycle oil with 

car level ZDDP? Older cars still need it for the flat tappet 

lifters. The big issue here is that Rotax 912 engines use flat 

tappet lifters. The auto industry responded and designed roller cam 

shafts and don't need all the ZDDP. Without enough ZDDP flat tappet 

lifters wear out much faster and can gall. There is a lot of stress 

on flat tappet lifters. Now let's toss in a gearbox that shares our 

oil. The cars didn't have to worry about the gearbox part. 

Motorcycle's like our Rotax shares it's engine oil with the engine. 

The gearbox has a very high mechanical action on the oil's shear 

properties and very close tolerances as it should, but withou!

  t the proper levels of ZDDP then you will have excessive gear wear 

 and galling. The ZDDP is a sacrificial coating to prevent this. If 

 you doubt any of this there are thousands of pages of research to 

 back this up on the web. We need to have around 1500ppm to protect 

 our flat tappet lifters and gearbox. Zinc is not necessarily the 

 important part, but the phosphorus is what makes it adhere to the 

 metal. Now ZDDP is just one additive we need so you also need to 

 look at the oil's total additive package.



Dick,



So to answer your question the clutch isn't the important part so if 

you have one or not it isn't really the issue. The issue is 

protecting the gears, lifters and other metal to meat close 

tolerance parts. You may be on to something if you add a little on 

the side, but I wouldn't get carried away with the ZDDP additive. 

Too much probably isn't good either.



--------

Roger Lee

Tucson, Az.

Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated

Home 520-574-1080  TRY HOME FIRST

Cell 520-349-7056





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350304#350304

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

Howdy Paul,



Thanks, Your correct and that makes my case even stronger. I don't know as much about car oils and I only used it as a reference as to what ZDDP was used for. 

The only issue with the Rotax operating fluid oil publication is Rotax openly admits they can only test or even willing to spend the money on testing a couple of oils from around the world. There are so many it is buyer get educated. Since none of us are testing facilities or have access to test the many varieties of oils we all have to depend on what the research is in the field and what the oil companies are willing to talk about.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

I knew before I ever posted this that oil is a hot topic and it's like discussing religion and politics. So I was mentally ready for the fluid discussion.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

cscsail(at)gmavt.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:57 am Post subject: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

I just tuned in --- so, what's the bottom line with respect to sport plus 4? 

Is it no longer an approved or recommended oil for the 912s?

Gordon

---

JohnF

Joined: 13 May 2010
Posts: 124

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:57 am Post subject: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

Roger,

I did a little searching re ZDDP and the hot-roders are really into it.



If, repeat, IF, my calculations are correct, you can add a ZDDP additive, 

available at auto stores, to the Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 at a rate of 1.479 

fluid oz to one liter of the oil and come up with 1,500 ppm of ZDDP. I have 

a case of Aeroshell on hand and don't want to 'waste' it by not using it 

right now in the 912ULS.



Your thoughts?



John at Salida, CO

---

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

Hi Dick and John,



See Dick I told you you might be on to something. John's doing the research. Nice work. I do wonder why Aero shell wants to not only change the additives, but the base stock too? They had a foaming issue a while back too they had to correct. Kind of makes you wonder.



p.s.

Hi Gordon,



There is no recommendations and nothing in writing about anything.  Everything that was in writing still stands. It is strictly up to you to choose.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:58 am Post subject: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

Roger,

  I knew this subject would be a hornets nest ! It is good banter  though and some very good info. I hope you will keep us posted on Shell's  update. I would like to know when and if the new formulation is available. Until  then I may change the oil sooner on my engine rather than later as the ZDDP  molecules sacrificed will be in a smaller number.

  John,

  Thanks for your input as you saved me the calculations of how much  ZDDP to add,IF I do.

                                                             Dick Maddux

                                                             912UL

                                                             Milton,Fl

  

 PS: Roger we did our first condition inspection on a CT with 300 hrs. This  was a result of the ad I put in the CT newsletter.The owner was thrilled with  the results. He didn't have to take it to Lockwood,saved a pile of money and  stated later the airplane runs better now than it ever has ! Made me feel good.  We found many items that were not properly attended to during earlier  inspections. Thanks for all your input !

 [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

Hi Dick,



I knew to this was a loaded topic so I put on an extra layer of skin, but couldn't see any reason to hold back. I heard that the reformulation won't take place until 2012. I truly don't know about that part and have to relay on higher up source that are more attached to the real issue.



I'm not making anyone change their oil brand or telling anyone they must change. I just got the info and posted it. It's up to each person to make a choice. If I learned something from high up that may harm our plane and didn't post it I would feel negligent, but the responsibility to accept, reject, research or act is up to each person.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Last edited by Roger Lee on Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  Hi Dick,



I too knew this was a loaded topic so I put on an extra layer of skin, but couldn't see any reason to hold back. I heard that the reformulation won't take place until 2012. I truly don't know about that part and have to relay on higher up source that are more attached to the real issue.



I'm not making anyone change their oil brand or telling anyone they must change. I just got the info and posted it. It's up to each person to make a choice. If I learned something from high up that may harm our plane and didn't post it I would feel negligent, but the responsibility to accept, reject, research or act is up to each person. 	




Ok, just found this thread too. The issue seems to be an additive called ZDDP?



In any case, I'm not bent out of shape about this right now. I'm not flying that much and my oil change intervals are therefore turning out to be pretty short (about 25 hours). My mag plug is coming out clean each time (tho admittedly with a short oil change interval) so nothing is eating itself up inside the engine that I can see. 



OTOH, I'd still rather use the most suitable oil available. Perhaps the Golden Spectro? Of course, you can guarantee that, if it's the right oil, it won't be available in my area .



I havn't heard anything about the Aeroshell being reformulated or there being a problem with it, so I'm still watching this with interest - any further info?



Thanks,

LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4

Hi Lucien,



I doubt you will see anyone admit to anything in writing about this other than right here and maybe another forum or two.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

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