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How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

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samira.h(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:40 am Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

Since 6 years I am using a pointy 

chopstick, an elastic and a bendable 

ruler to set my magnetos.



First I use the original TDC tool 

(with a tight fitting o-ring installed

below the pointer pin at the top) to 

find TD.



Then I jam the ruler between the half

way open vanes and outer cowling

ring. There are 28 shutters, so divide

them by 360 degrees and you have

exactly 12.86 degrees between 2 vanes.



I affix the pointy chopstick to the propeller

using the elastic, are you still with me?



The TDC tool shows the piston has reached TD,

I move the ruler so the chopstick points 

on zero. Then I pull the prop further until

the TDC tool pointer starts to move again,

now I have the dwell factor and just divide

it by 2, indicating the exact TDC on the ruler. 



Now I look at the embossed pre-setting number

on my magneto (e.g. 23 degrees), subtract

this number from the pre-ignition angle with

fully advanced flyweights (e.g. 31 or 27 degrees,

depends on your engine), multiply it by the

gear ratio, in my case 0.787 and set my timing.



Job done and no fancy tools involved.



If someone is interested, I could

send you a picture.



cheers



Elmar

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:24 am Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

Elmar,



I AM INTERESTED not only by pictures but by a more complete : How to time ones magneto for the DUMB (I would be the dumb OK!!!)

Tutorials on magneto.

I have done one for : How to change a tire in less than five minutes" for the dumb"....that's my level in mechanic.

  But I am learning.



Pics would be great 



thanks to propose



Didier Blouzard from Paris (yesss in France)



2011/10/11 Elmar Hegenauer <samira.h(at)shaw.ca (samira.h(at)shaw.ca)>

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: Elmar Hegenauer <samira.h(at)shaw.ca (samira.h(at)shaw.ca)>

  

 Since 6 years I am using a pointy

 chopstick, an elastic and a bendable

 ruler to set my magnetos.

 

 First I use the original TDC tool

 (with a tight fitting o-ring installed

 below the pointer pin at the top) to

 find TD.

 

 Then I jam the ruler between the half

 way open vanes and outer cowling

 ring. There are 28 shutters, so divide

 them by 360 degrees and you have

 exactly 12.86 degrees between 2 vanes.

 

 I affix the pointy chopstick to the propeller

 using the elastic, are you still with me?

 

 The TDC tool shows the piston has reached TD,

 I move the ruler so the chopstick points

 on zero. Then I pull the prop further until

 the TDC tool pointer starts to move again,

 now I have the dwell factor and just divide

 it by 2, indicating the exact TDC on the ruler.

 

 Now I look at the embossed pre-setting number

 on my magneto (e.g. 23 degrees), subtract

 this number from the pre-ignition angle with

 fully advanced flyweights (e.g. 31 or 27 degrees,

 depends on your engine), multiply it by the

 gear ratio, in my case 0.787 and set my timing.

 

 Job done and no fancy tools involved.

 

 If someone is interested, I could

 send you a picture.

 

 cheers

 

 Elmar

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

____________________________

Didier BLOUZARD   Portable : +33 6 24 24  36 72

    Email:  didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com (didier.blouzard(at)anolistech.fr)



  [quote][b]

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

samira.h(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:32 am Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

Bonjour Didier,



the tight fitting o-ring is below

the red dot. Its applied friction 

hampers the tool to turn while

you are pulling the prop. But don't

screw it in all the way, it might

disengage the pointer from the push-rod

and will get you into "Teufel's Kueche", 

Dennis has been there twice.



Again, IMO the original TDC indicator is NOT 

a timing setting tool but a much more precise

TDC and TDC-dwell finding contraption through 

its higher push-rod to pointer ratio.



More pictures to follow the next days.



cheers



Elmar

TDC-Fix1.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

362.42 KB

Viewed:

4667 Time(s)

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:23 am Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

Setting everything in the Russian Mags is more complicated than just

getting the points to open and close at the proper time using whatever

method.  Which is really all we have talked about here.  That mag is one

very complicated son of a gun.  Suggest you also talk to Dennis about

getting a picture he has.  



The whole issue of timing ends up being a simple matter of when you

actually fire the spark plug in relationship to exactly where the piston

is on the compression stroke.  Period, end of story.  That is what it

all adds up to and ends up doing.  BANG!  Fires the air fuel mixture.  



However, the variables involved here include: 



1.  Adjustment to the coupling adapter on the bottom of the mag. 

2.  Adjustment of the mag housing in relationship to the engine case.  

3.  Adjustment of the Mag Rotor in relationship to the mag housing.  

4.  Adjustment of Point Gap/breaker plate. 

5.  Spark Plug Gap.  



All of these things impact when the spark plug actually produces the

spark.  



I am not an expert on M-14 engine, or radials of any kind really.  I am

just another person that is learning as he goes.  That said, I have

learned that on other engines, when that spark plug fires can be a

surprise when you find out when it ACTUALLY fires, compared to when you

THOUGHT it WOULD fire.



A timing light would be nice, but I can't figure out how that would work

on a geared engine, let alone inches from the prop. 



Mark

--

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  

 Setting everything in the Russian Mags is more complicated than just

 getting the points to open and close at the proper time using whatever

 method.  Which is really all we have talked about here.  That mag is one

 very complicated son of a gun.  Suggest you also talk to Dennis about

 getting a picture he has.

 

 The whole issue of timing ends up being a simple matter of when you

 actually fire the spark plug in relationship to exactly where the piston

 is on the compression stroke.  Period, end of story.  That is what it

 all adds up to and ends up doing.  BANG!  Fires the air fuel mixture.

 

 However, the variables involved here include:

 

 1.  Adjustment to the coupling adapter on the bottom of the mag.

 2.  Adjustment of the mag housing in relationship to the engine case.

 3.  Adjustment of the Mag Rotor in relationship to the mag housing.

 4.  Adjustment of Point Gap/breaker plate.

 5.  Spark Plug Gap.

	




There is an excellent treatise on the care and feeding of magneto ignition systems. While it is directed at the Bendix and Slick mags in common use on Lycoming and Continental flat engines, the theory is applicable to all magnetos.

 



http://www.sacskyranch.com/pubsmag.htm

I have a copy of this book and it explains things like the relationship between the E-gap angle, the points in the primary opening, distributor angle, and crank angle. Excellent reading if you really want to understand these things. 

 



OTOH, electronic ignition simplifies all this and makes it all intuitively understandable. 

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 All of these things impact when the spark plug actually produces the

 spark.

 

 I am not an expert on M-14 engine, or radials of any kind really.  I am

 just another person that is learning as he goes.  That said, I have

 learned that on other engines, when that spark plug fires can be a

 surprise when you find out when it ACTUALLY fires, compared to when you

 THOUGHT it WOULD fire.

 

 A timing light would be nice, but I can't figure out how that would work

 on a geared engine, let alone inches from the prop.

	




You are right; setting the timing dynamically, i.e. when plug 1 fires, requires access to the crank angle or cam angle independent of the gear reduction system. But since most of our mags use fixed timing, timing the engine statically is just fine. (Housai mags use RPM-based spark advance so they have advanced all the way to 1930's technology!)

 



Coil-per-plug and wasted-spark systems that dispense with the distributor are SOOO much simpler. 



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

 brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:12 pm Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

Soo simple but efficient.

Thanks a lot for the hint. That's a usefull one.



Thanks a lot Elmar



Didier



2011/10/11 Elmar Hegenauer <samira.h(at)shaw.ca (samira.h(at)shaw.ca)>

   	  Quote: 	
		  Bonjour Didier,

 

 the tight fitting o-ring is below

 the red dot. Its applied friction

 hampers the tool to turn while

 you are pulling the prop. But don't

 screw it in all the way, it might

 disengage the pointer from the push-rod

 and will get you into "Teufel's Kueche",

 Dennis has been there twice.

 

 Again, IMO the original TDC indicator is NOT

 a timing setting tool but a much more precise

 TDC and TDC-dwell finding contraption through

 its higher push-rod to pointer ratio.

 

 More pictures to follow the next days.

 

 cheers

 

 Elmar

 

 	


-- 

____________________________

Didier BLOUZARD   Portable : +33 6 24 24  36 72

    Email:  didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com (didier.blouzard(at)anolistech.fr)



  [quote][b]

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

Elmar,

Can you send a picture of where you placed the O ring. I'm soon to be needing the Device in a couple weeks as I'm rebuilding my M14P after it was FOD'd. This has been a real educational experience to say the least.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Oct 11, 2011, at 5:09 PM, Didier Blouzard <didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com (didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



[quote]Soo simple but efficient.

Thanks a lot for the hint. That's a usefull one.



Thanks a lot Elmar



Didier



2011/10/11 Elmar Hegenauer <[url=mailto:samira.h(at)shaw.ca]samira.h(at)shaw.ca (samira.h(at)shaw.ca)[/url]>

   	  Quote: 	
		  Bonjour Didier,

 

 the tight fitting o-ring is below

 the red dot. Its applied friction

 hampers the tool to turn while

 you are pulling the prop. But don't

 screw it in all the way, it might

 disengage the pointer from the push-rod

 and will get you into "Teufel's Kueche",

 Dennis has been there twice.

 

 Again, IMO the original TDC indicator is NOT

 a timing setting tool but a much more precise

 TDC and TDC-dwell finding contraption through

 its higher push-rod to pointer ratio.

 

 More pictures to follow the next days.

 

 cheers

 

 Elmar

 

 	


-- 

____________________________

Didier BLOUZARD   Portable : +33 6 24 24  36 72

    Email:  [url=mailto:didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com]didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com (didier.blouzard(at)anolistech.fr)[/url]



   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:22 pm Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

Elmar,

Never mind. Found it.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Oct 11, 2011, at 1:29 PM, Elmar Hegenauer <samira.h(at)shaw.ca> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bonjour Didier,

 

 the tight fitting o-ring is below

 the red dot. Its applied friction 

 hampers the tool to turn while

 you are pulling the prop. But don't

 screw it in all the way, it might

 disengage the pointer from the push-rod

 and will get you into "Teufel's Kueche", 

 Dennis has been there twice.

 

 Again, IMO the original TDC indicator is NOT 

 a timing setting tool but a much more precise

 TDC and TDC-dwell finding contraption through 

 its higher push-rod to pointer ratio.

 

 More pictures to follow the next days.

 

 cheers

 

 Elmar

 

 <TDC-Fix1.jpg>

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

Soon there’ll be laser-plugs on the market. Three beams that can even be direction-controlled and fire multiple sparks at their crossing point (programmable further down!).

No more high voltage systems. It took some time to develop them (making the lasers small enough to fit in the casing of a spark plug).

As soon as mass production starts, prices will be reasonable (I hope). 

 

You can use the mag points to trigger the electronics. 

 

I already do that with an MSD device (Mark Bitterlich’s idea) on my M14R.  I did the timing the classical way and it works well.

5 hours flown with it until now and the results are better than expected. Better combustion, much smoother run, particularly at low RPM and with a cold engine.

 

Further testing is still needed, but unfortunately, I’m grounded (as so many others in Europe).

 

BR

 

 

Jan

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd

Sent: dinsdag 11 oktober 2011 22:53

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

 

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>



Setting everything in the Russian Mags is more complicated than just

getting the points to open and close at the proper time using whatever

method.  Which is really all we have talked about here.  That mag is one

very complicated son of a gun.  Suggest you also talk to Dennis about

getting a picture he has.



The whole issue of timing ends up being a simple matter of when you

actually fire the spark plug in relationship to exactly where the piston

is on the compression stroke.  Period, end of story.  That is what it

all adds up to and ends up doing.  BANG!  Fires the air fuel mixture.



However, the variables involved here include:



1.  Adjustment to the coupling adapter on the bottom of the mag.

2.  Adjustment of the mag housing in relationship to the engine case.

3.  Adjustment of the Mag Rotor in relationship to the mag housing.

4.  Adjustment of Point Gap/breaker plate.

5.  Spark Plug Gap. 	


 



There is an excellent treatise on the care and feeding of magneto ignition systems. While it is directed at the Bendix and Slick mags in common use on Lycoming and Continental flat engines, the theory is applicable to all magnetos.



 



http://www.sacskyranch.com/pubsmag.htm



 



I have a copy of this book and it explains things like the relationship between the E-gap angle, the points in the primary opening, distributor angle, and crank angle. Excellent reading if you really want to understand these things. 



 



OTOH, electronic ignition simplifies all this and makes it all intuitively understandable. 



 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



All of these things impact when the spark plug actually produces the

spark.



I am not an expert on M-14 engine, or radials of any kind really.  I am

just another person that is learning as he goes.  That said, I have

learned that on other engines, when that spark plug fires can be a

surprise when you find out when it ACTUALLY fires, compared to when you

THOUGHT it WOULD fire.



A timing light would be nice, but I can't figure out how that would work

on a geared engine, let alone inches from the prop. 	


 



You are right; setting the timing dynamically, i.e. when plug 1 fires, requires access to the crank angle or cam angle independent of the gear reduction system. But since most of our mags use fixed timing, timing the engine statically is just fine. (Housai mags use RPM-based spark advance so they have advanced all the way to 1930's technology!)



 



Coil-per-plug and wasted-spark systems that dispense with the distributor are SOOO much simpler. 



 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA) 	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7

  [quote][b]

samira.h(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:54 am Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

Didier and others,



here come the promised pictures.



Have fun.



cheers



Elmar

Magneto-Timing1.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

439.51 KB

Viewed:

4590 Time(s)

Magneto-Timing2.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

392.14 KB

Viewed:

4590 Time(s)

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:17 am Post subject: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools

Very ingenious Elmar.



For dummies like me, I bought this timing tool which works perfect, 

especially if the airplane has a spinner because the spinner backing 

plate covers the timing marks on the prop flange.



http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=E25



Disregard the TDC tool.  Won't work properly because it is a geared engine.

Dennis



A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (cell)

Skype: Yakguy1

www.yak-52.com

On 10/13/2011 10:50 AM, Elmar Hegenauer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Didier and others,



 here come the promised pictures.



 Have fun.



 cheers



 Elmar

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