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Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice

Kelly,



Actually, if you fly only VFR, there is no requirement for a pitot-static or transponder inspection. Of course, you may not use the transponder, which means no Class B or C, not above 10,000', etc. Which is why I thought maybe I misunderstood Tim's post. Did he mean biannual (which is what he wrote) meaning instrument currency every 6 months? Tim?

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:04 pm Post subject: Panel Choice

I actually was adding 700$ that I believe was the cost for the XM package I purchased. 600$ is the g3x bundle. 



Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 23, 2011, at 17:57, "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Just to add on to "apples to apples..."

 

 Don't forget the quoted $1300 includes xm weather (up to $600/yr depending on subscription). I don't think anyone else was including that cost in their discussion.

 

 OTOH:  Is anyone NOT doing biennial pitot/static/transponder inspections, as I thought Tim was implying? To not do so would restrict you to below 10,000', 30 nm away from all Class B, and no Class C, areas.

 

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355811#355811

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject: Panel Choice

There is if you base like I do under a Mode C veil. I'm well familiar

with the rules.

Anyone know if there is any potential for damage to solid state

pressure sensors used for airspeed in EFIS systems like a mechanical

airspeed can be damaged if you take pressure up to high altitude while

leaving pitot pressure at surface?



On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Kelly,



 Actually, if you fly only VFR, there is no requirement for a pitot-static or transponder inspection. Of course, you may not use the transponder, which means no Class B or C, not above 10,000', etc. Which is why I thought maybe I misunderstood Tim's post. Did he mean biannual (which is what he wrote) meaning instrument currency every 6 months? Tim?



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355817#355817

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject: Panel Choice

Kelly,

The EFIS pressure sensors seem to be immune to rapid changes.Â  The guy who does our checks does nothing but static checks--not even repairs, just checks.Â  He says the new stuff can go as fast as the pressure will change.Â  I've seen him slam EFIS around in a way that would bust a mechanical instrument in a heartbeat and it just keeps working, mine included.Â  The hardest part now is disconnecting the mechanical airspeed!

  Dave Saylor

AirCrafters

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]  --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)>

 There is if you base like I do under a Mode C veil. I'm well familiar

 with the rules.

 Anyone know if there is any potential for damage to solid state

 pressure sensors used for airspeed in EFIS systems like a mechanical

 airspeed can be damaged if you take pressure up to high altitude while

 leaving pitot pressure at surface?

 On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

 >

 > Kelly,

 >

 > Actually, if you fly only VFR, there is no requirement for a pitot-static or transponder inspection. Of course, you may not use the transponder, which means no Class B or C, not above 10,000', etc. Which is why I thought maybe I misunderstood Tim's post. Did he mean biannual (which is what he wrote) meaning instrument currency every 6 months? Tim?

   >

 > --------

 > Bob Turner

 > RV-10 QB

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355817#355817

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 ===========

 " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 [b]

nukeflyboy

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Granbury, TX

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice

There are two different databases which seem to cause confusion.  The one required to fly legal IFR is for the 430/530/650/750 or whatever certified navigator you are using.  If you fly IFR you can't get around this cost, even for paper.



The other one is just for the backdrop on the moving map in the EFIS.  Updates  are free from GRT/AFS.  With a G650/750 IFR subscription the EFIS moving map updates are free for the G3X.  If you have a 430/530 then you pay an additional subscription to update the EFIS.



I do not know the frequency of updates for the moving map in a GRT/AFS system.

_________________
Dave Moore
RV-6 built and sold
RV-10 built and flying

orchidman

Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Oklahoma City - KRCE

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:24 am Post subject: Re: Panel Choice

 	  nukeflyboy wrote: 	
		  I do not know the frequency of updates for the moving map in a GRT/AFS system. 	


Not sure about GRT but AFS, the maps are updated every 28 days.

_________________
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N2GB Flying)

Jim Combs

Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:47 am Post subject: Panel Choice

Sean, yes to be fair we all have to pay the darn recurring fees for the data updates.  I can see the fees for XM radio, they have to pay to build, launch and fly the satellites.  But the other data is (I think) supplied by the FAA.  One can download approach plates in PDF form directly from the FAA.Gov website for free.  The other data (Airport info, tower data also is from the FAA.  So the question I have 

 is what is the value add from the data suppliers (Garmin, Jepp) that warrants the large expense.



Jim C



D Not Archive



On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com (sean(at)braunandco.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com (sean(at)braunandco.com)>

 

 I actually was adding 700$ that I believe was the cost for the XM package I purchased. 600$ is the g3x bundle.

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 On Oct 23, 2011, at 17:57, "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

 

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

 >

 > Just to add on to "apples to apples..."

 >

 > Don't forget the quoted $1300 includes xm weather (up to $600/yr depending on subscription). I don't think anyone else was including that cost in their discussion.

 >

 > OTOH:  Is anyone NOT doing biennial pitot/static/transponder inspections, as I thought Tim was implying? To not do so would restrict you to below 10,000', 30 nm away from all Class B, and no Class C, areas.

 >

 > --------

 > Bob Turner

 > RV-10 QB

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355811#355811

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

_________________
RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Panel Choice

I don't think anything warrants the big expense for the data but it is worth it for me to have the G3X. 

AOPA  supplies the airport directory.  The flight charts are geo-referenced and are government.  NAVDATA is from Jeppesen and includes N,C,and S America.  Obstacles are from Garmin (i believe). SAFETAXI is from government charts and is geo-reference. Terrain is from Garmin and shows N, C, and S America.



I have had absolutely no issues with the G3X/GX Pilot since I wired it and installed it.    When I wish it had a certain functions, the next update bundle has it in it plus more options.  The cost of the data is high but reliability, ease of use, company history/size and having everything from the same company "talk" to each other is nice in the cockpit and is why I bought the G3X.  



Although, I do have a separate D6 for AHRS/Magnetometer back-up.

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Panel Choice

 	  Jim Combs wrote: 	
		  ï¿½ So the question I have 

 is what is the value add from the data suppliers (Garmin, Jepp) that warrants the large expense.



Jim C



 

 [b] 	




Simple supply and demand. capitalism at work. So Jim hits it right on the head: why do they get to sell, for profit, data that is generated by taxpayer dollars?   Corrupted capitalism??



do not archive

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2878

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:43 am Post subject: Panel Choice

Not that I'd EVER want to defend Jeppesen, but, the actual

programming and linking of the approaches, created from

the waypoints the feds have, is actually done by Jepp for

these navigator devices.  So that's where the value add

comes in.  If you just solely use Government data, all

you'll really have, in electronic form, is a bunch of

waypoints or fixes.  Sure, for a VFR pilot, that's fine,

because you'll now have your airport data and some

fixes and intersections, but, it doesn't give you anything

to actually fly an approach USING your system.  (i.e.

no coupled approaches)  Yes, the feds do this for their

paper charts, but the programming is different for each

navigator device, so Jepp takes the data and builds

the approaches into the various devices required format.

So without Jepp doing that, your options are limited.

Now that said, the Aspen stuff I guess is all done by

Seattle avionics. They use the gov't data to build

the databases for the Aspen stuff and do the approaches

too.  Can they do it for other devices?  Sure, they

absolutely can.  But, they won't, and that's because

they would get sued by Garmin and Jepp if they stepped

on their toes and started doing this for the Garmin

devices.   They could do it for systems like the

Chelton system...they still may get sued, but they

would be at a lower risk of that, but then they

have 2 problems....1 is that they take on liability,

and 2 is that they won't make a huge profit on the

effort to make it worthwhile because there aren't that

many systems out there.  It takes a certain quantity

of systems to make it worthwhile.

If an individual had the talent, and time, the government

data is available, and by taking countless hours of time,

you could script it so that you could generate an

actual Garmin db out of it if you reverse engineer

the format, but keeping up with the changes on

a 28 day cycle would make it a full time job....so

you probably couldn't do it nationwide without

dedicated staff.

So really, there is value add for people who want to

actually fly IFR, doing coupled approaches.  If you

want to go VFR only, it is far less valuable, and

the economical alternative is to do an annual database

update on your EFIS, and use an iPad navigating VFR

and keeping that data current.

Tim

On 10/24/2011 9:16 AM, dmaib(at)me.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Jim Combs wrote:

> ï¿½ So the question I have

>   is what is the value add from the data suppliers (Garmin, Jepp) that warrants the large expense.

>

> Jim C

>   [b]

 Simple supply and demand. capitalism at work. So Jim hits it right on the head: why do they get to sell, for profit, data that is generated by taxpayer dollars?  [Evil or Very Mad] Corrupted capitalism??

 do not archive

 --------

 David Maib

 RV-10 #40559

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355862#355862

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:43 am Post subject: Panel Choice

IIRC flying IFR in the big birds requires three independent ways to keep the

dirty side down in IMC. I accomplished this with a Chelton system as primary

and a GRT Sport system as backup. The tie breaker is the Trutrak autopilot

that can with its own solid state gyros ignore all inputs from the EFIS

systems and fly the aircraft independently. The EFIS systems each have their

own single dependency but their dependencies are different. Obviously all

three systems must share in some fashion the primary and backup electrical

system. I buy the Jepp/Chelton updates for the Cheltons for $550 annually;

GRT updates are free and Trutrak has updated my Digiflite software without

charge several times. 



--

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:49 am Post subject: Panel Choice

As a retired IT guy, they can charge what they like to massage the data and

insert it into their hardware. Certainly someone could write something

comparable/compatible and perform the function but why go to the

effort/expense to produce and maintain same? 



--

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice

Dave,



Your numbers have been bothering me so I went back and looked at my avionics purchases.



I bought almost exactly what you describe as the GRT system (2 displays, 1 air data computer, xm wx, IO-540 engine instruments including fuel flow) for $11.1K minus a 5% discount, or $10.6K - a lot less than you quoted, and comparable with the G3X.  Possible differences: I got the standard size, not larger size, displays (+$1.2K for two). I also got an HX and a HS, e.g., synthetic vision on only one display. I couldn't reason the extra $2K for two HX's when the second display is used for engine instruments most of the time.



Something you failed to mention: GRT is the only system that will continue to give you engine information if the EFIS fails.



 I'm sure you'll be happy with your choice. Just wanted to point out the cost differences are closer than you thought.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

nukeflyboy

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Granbury, TX

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice

Bob,



That's good info.  You are correct about the engine monitor being independent from the EFIS which is not the case with the others.  As far as cost goes the suppliers keep adjusting their prices so you need to use current data.  Mine is already obsolete and it is only 2 months old.  There is also a seemingly infinite number of combinations and this adds to the headache.  The value of these discussions is to get the relevant data out in the open so the next guy is better prepared to ask the right questions.

_________________
Dave Moore
RV-6 built and sold
RV-10 built and flying

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice

With G3X you can have two EFIS screens fail and still get engine info. The GSU would have to fail or three screens.

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Panel Choice

I had to clear one more thing up.  I just checked all of my data subscription prices so here they are for comparison:



G3X Bundle 500.00        navdata, flightcharts, safetaxi, obstacle, terrain,

                                    Airport directory

XM              745.55        XMWX Aviator with XM Select  (1 Year Plan) 

430W           385.00        Yearly NAVDATA for IFR



What bums me out about this is the bundling now for G3X with the GTN6XX/7XX is 924.00 and you can get it all through Garmin.  As of now I have to buy the G3X from Garmin and the 430W separately from Jeppesen.



Also, my GX pilot will work individually if the EFIS goes TU.

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

jump2(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:51 am Post subject: Panel Choice

Just to let you know I just got off the phone with Garmin even though I have a G500 and dual 430w's they won't give me the lower price either because thay are not the new GTN.

Jeppesen does give you a lower price for the second 430.

 The new GTN are coded so the card can be used in only one specific unit and not swapped around.

 So I buy the nav data from Jep and will keep the Ipad up to date and update the 696 once a year.

Patrick Thyssen

N15PT 383hrs



--- On Wed, 10/26/11, Strasnuts <sean(at)braunandco.com> wrote:

[quote]

From: Strasnuts <sean(at)braunandco.com>

Subject: Re: Panel Choice

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 8:51 AM



-->  RV10-List message posted by: "Strasnuts" <[url=/mc/compose?to=sean(at)braunandco.com]sean(at)braunandco.com[/url]>



I had to clear one more thing up.  I just checked all of my data subscription prices so here they are for comparison:



G3X Bundle 500.00        navdata, flightcharts, safetaxi, obstacle, terrain,

                                    Airport directory

XM              745.55        XMWX Aviator with XM Select  (1 Year Plan) 

430W           385.00        Yearly NAVDATA for IFR



What bums me out about this is the bundling now for G3X with the GTN6XX/7XX is 924.00 and you can get it all through Garmin.  As of now I have to buy the G3X from Garmin  and the 430W separately from Jeppesen.



Also, my GX pilot will work individually if the EFIS goes TU.



--------

40936

RV-10 SB N801VR Flying





Read this topic online here:



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