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Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

I have not worked on my MKx in quite a while but have been re-motivated with the thought of building it with the new nose wheel option.  What do you guys think about this option?

_________________
Rick Lewis

(VW Watercooled Engine)

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

Hi Rick,



  I think it could be a good idea.  I'll work with ya on the design.  I've already scribbled a drawing just for grins.



BTW, what do you mean "with the new nose wheel option"?  Are you referring to the Firestar's new front wheel or

has Kolb Aircraft  come up with a new bolt-on option for the MkIIIX?  (or will the Firestar front wheel work with either one?)



Mike Welch

On Nov 14, 2011, at 4:14 PM, Rick Lewis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have not worked on my MKx in quite a while but have been re-motivated with the thought of building it with the new nose wheel option.  What do you guys think about this option?

 

 --------

 Rick Lewis

 

 (VW Watercooled Engine)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357860#357860

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

At 05:14 PM 11/14/2011, Rick Lewis wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rick Lewis" <cktman(at)hughes.net>



 I have not worked on my MKx in quite a while but have been re-motivated with the thought of building it with the new nose wheel option.  What do you guys think about this option? 	


 Why put a training wheel on a perfectly good taildragger?



 -Dana

 --

 Alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

    [quote][b]

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

Thanks Mike for the reply.  Kolb has NOT afford an option for the MKX, as far as I know, but they have impressed me with what they have done so far on this.  I talked to Brian today about this modification on the MKX and I will be going to see them in a fews days to look at a prototype.  If others are interested in this I will submit pictures that I take. I Will be looking for other positive replies on this.  



    I really would appreciate any idea's YOU might have on me converting my MKX to a nose wheel aircraft.  I have not covered the cage yet so that should be of some help.  Rick   cktman(at)hughes.net

_________________
Rick Lewis

(VW Watercooled Engine)

Last edited by Rick Lewis on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

And why not?? Nobody is asking ya to put one on yours.

_________________
Kolb Mark IIIX 582 Blue head

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

Thanks ss568 for the remark, I feel the same way. Rick

_________________
Rick Lewis

(VW Watercooled Engine)

David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

Rick,

I would be interested in converting my mk 3 to a tri .  If you get some pictures they would  be appreciated.

Thanks,

David d.

_________________
Kolb Mark IIIX 582 Blue head

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

Just curious....Why don't you like the tail dragger version??? They are so easy to handle...not sure why you would want to go through the extra work....Please post the pictures ..I would never do it ,but would like to see how they set it up...



chris ambrose

M3X/Jabiru A-2200   238.hrs

N327CS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:39 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

Folks:



Right off hand I can think of a couple things that a nose gear might affect

on a MKIIIx or a MKIIIc.



-The nose wheel and mount will add a lot more weight and drag than a tail

wheel.  



-We already have an inherent problem with a high mounted pusher

configuration.  The high thrust line wants to push the nose of the aircraft

down.  Takes a lot of nose up trim to keep it happy.  If we add a nose

wheel, it will add to the nose down trim problem.  Low drag up front will

combine with a high thrust line to try and push the nose down even more.



The standard main gear on Kolb aircraft places most of the weight on the

main gear with a light tail wheel.  It is very easy to handle on the ground.

As easy, or more so, than tricycle gear.  That is why Homer designed it that

way.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:05 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

John



  Valid points...but----



   Looks as if we already have a similar configuration with the Tri 

Firestar....The interview that I saw with Brian, indicated good 

flying qualities..



   Maybe Travis will give us some feedback on the ground handling 

qualities and your concerns?



  Herb

At 07:37 AM 11/15/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



  Folks:



Right off hand I can think of a couple things that a nose gear might affect

on a MKIIIx or a MKIIIc.



-The nose wheel and mount will add a lot more weight and drag than a tail

wheel.



-We already have an inherent problem with a high mounted pusher

configuration.  The high thrust line wants to push the nose of the aircraft

down.  Takes a lot of nose up trim to keep it happy.  If we add a nose

wheel, it will add to the nose down trim problem.  Low drag up front will

combine with a high thrust line to try and push the nose down even more.



The standard main gear on Kolb aircraft places most of the weight on the

main gear with a light tail wheel.  It is very easy to handle on the ground.

As easy, or more so, than tricycle gear.  That is why Homer designed it that

way.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:18 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

Looks as if we already have a similar configuration with the Tri

Firestar....The interview that I saw with Brian, indicated good flying

qualities..



Herb





Herb/Kolbers:



I've never seen the new tri-gear Firestar, nor have I talked with the

designer and test pilot.  Know virtually nothing about it.



I have flown a MKIIIx and am familiar with it.  I think that is what we are

talking about here, adding a nose gear to the MKIIIx. 



I am a tail wheel guy and partial to that configuration.  This doesn't

change the inherent problems mounting a nose gear on a MKIIIx will generate.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:33 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

We have machines here that started out as taildraggers, I had one.  The 

change to the nose wheel option has happened without any drama and although 

I have no figures I would guess that the tricycle is now in the majority.



I think you are wrong in describing the Xtra as `light on the tail`, mine 

certainly is not,  although you are right in saying that it would require a 

major trim change to accommodate  a front wheel.  That would have to be a 

redistribution of weight rather that just trimming it out.



I would certainly be interested in a trike gear but under our rules I 

suspect that I would have to jump through quite a few hoops to get it 

accepted on the register.

I don`t think that I will bother.



Pat

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:16 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

 	  Quote: 	
		   I don`t think that I will bother.

 

 Pat 


	


Pat, others,



  I suspect the nosewheel/tailwheel argument is a lot like VGs, Mystery Oil, Seafoam, and a host of other unending

discussions.



  Whether pro-tailwheel guys like it or not, there are probably lots of other guys who 'might' prefer a nosewheel.  That doesn't make

either side wrong, it just may be what we are used to, or have a preference for.  Much like VGs, or NO VGs.



  That being said, without a doubt, to install a nosewheel on an Xtra would certainly require a heckava lot more than simply 

bolting on a ready-made front wheel. (IMO)

  The main gear's present location, which is designed for a taildragger weight distribution, would be a very poor place to adapt

for a nosewheel.  It should be placed several inches rearward (after proper design calculations). 

  Plus, the added stresses a nosewheel would place on the very front portion of the fuselage would likely require some beefing up.



  In other words....done properly, a nosewheel Xtra would need a signifcant re-design, strengthening the front end and relocating the 

main gear mounts, maybe about 30" rearward or more.  There may also be other design considerations...I would imagine.



  If Kolb Aircraft were to seriously tackle this concept; 



a)  I would think the fuselage would require the appropriate modifications and new shape.

b) there darn sure would be a market for a nosewheel Xtra

c) it should be renamed, to clarify the distinction between nosewheel and tailwheel models.



  The idea that a high thrustline doesn't make for a good nosewheel airplane seems a little weak, to me.  If I had to guess, I'd bet there are FAR more

nosewheel/high engine lightplanes than there are tailwheel/high engine lightplanes.  Titan Tornado, Quicksilvers, Carlsons, Rans S12, to name just a few.

  Whether there are more of one or the other, doesn't mean the opposite style won't work, especially when designed correctly.



  Just my humble little opinion.



Mike Welch

MkIII

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

I started flying nose dragging airplanes and may still have more hours in them than tail daggers. With all the stories around I was also concerned about the Kolb before I flew it. Bottom line it isn't as much the nose verses tail as it is the overall aircraft design.   



Of the planes that I have flown there is one nose wheel airplane that is much more difficult to fly (drive on the ground) than my Kolb and that is a Piper Saratoga. The higher landing/take off speeds with the weight of the plane makes this nose wheel airplane a challenge. Another plane I now rent in the winter, a Sport Cruiser has differential braking with no link to the castering nose wheel. This configuration took more adjustment than a Kolb. I will say that I once landed down wind on a paved runway and my Kolb was a challenge. The Kolb flying off grass is the easiest to handle of any airplane I have ever flown. 

 



So with that said get a flight in a Kolb before you add the weight, drag, and complexity to a perfectly fine airplane.

Rick Neilsen

1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:37 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 

 

  Folks:

 

 Right off hand I can think of a couple things that a nose gear might affect

 on a MKIIIx or a MKIIIc.

 

 -The nose wheel and mount will add a lot more weight and drag than a tail

 wheel.

 

 -We already have an inherent problem with a high mounted pusher

 configuration.  The high thrust line wants to push the nose of the aircraft

 down.  Takes a lot of nose up trim to keep it happy.  If we add a nose

 wheel, it will add to the nose down trim problem.  Low drag up front will

 combine with a high thrust line to try and push the nose down even more.

 

 The standard main gear on Kolb aircraft places most of the weight on the

 main gear with a light tail wheel.  It is very easy to handle on the ground.

 As easy, or more so, than tricycle gear.  That is why Homer designed it that

 way.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 



 

 

 

 

 

 

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[b]

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:57 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

the entire time i was building my mkiii,   my brother kept telling me that 

it needed a nose wheel...  it needs a nose wheel,,,  it needs a nose whee... 

so when it was done i took him for a ride,   when i showed him some slow s 

turns down the runway with the tail in the air,,,   and told him that this 

was the hardest part of flying a tail dragger,   he said,,," guess it dont 

need a nose wheel,   this dosent seem as bad as i had been led to believe."



many pilots when starting with a tail dragger,   get a bit behind what is 

going on and end up "stomping on snakes" when making adjustments to the 

rudder.     if ,  or should i say when, you learn that you should use a 

constant steady pressure, and only enough to get the desired results,  the 

tail dragger tames down  and is no longer a scary monster.



ask me how i know about the "stomping on snakes"   my first few flights in a 

super cub,,,   well i am glad the runway was 75 ft wide.  and now landing on 

a 2  track road is doable.



my 2 cents



boyd young

mkiii utah

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:24 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

 	  Quote: 	
		   the tail dragger tames down  and is no longer a scary monster.

 

 boyd young

 mkiii utah


	




Boyd,



  I suspect you are hitting the nail on the head the best.  For those of us with little, or NO

tailwheel time, I think all we want is a stable, unscary plane.  Whether it is nosedragger, or taildragger,

we mostly prefer non-wingdragger.  



  Like Rick N. suggested, maybe we should just get a flight in a MkIII and relax.  By all accounts,

evidently Kolbs are some of the best taildraggers around.



Mike W

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:00 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

The idea that a high thrustline doesn't make for a good nosewheel airplane

seems a little weak, to me.  If I had to guess, I'd bet there are FAR more

nosewheel/high engine lightplanes than there are tailwheel/high engine

lightplanes.  Titan Tornado, Quicksilvers, Carlsons, Rans S12, to name just

a few.

  Whether there are more of one or the other, doesn't mean the opposite

style won't work, especially when designed correctly.



  Just my humble little opinion.



Mike Welch

MkIII

 



Mike W/Folks:



No argument here.  I simply tried to contribute the effects of adding a nose

wheel to a MKIIIx, probably with the big nose (I am assuming the gentleman

has an older model MKIIIx).



I didn't say, "a high thrust line doesn't make for a good nose wheel

airplane." 



There is no comparison between a MKIIIx and "Titan Tornado, Quicksilvers,

Carlsons, Rans S12, to name a few,"  when comparing nose and tail wheel

aircraft.



If and when you ever fly a MKIIIx, you will probably be immediately aware of

the high thrust line and how it affects flight characteristics and

performance, especially in cruise.  Add a nose wheel to this characteristic

and it will only add to the high thrust line effect.  Sort of like riding a

bicycle with one pedal.  Then getting the other foot on a pedal and riding

with two.  Suddenly there is a lot more force being applied.  The drag on

the nose wheel will tend to compound the high thrust line and its

characteristic of pushing down on the nose.



I have no argument for or against, either nose or tail wheel, as I have no

argument with or without VGs.  I have been there and done that, with

experience to back up my thoughts.



My MKIII and the couple other MKIII's with Hauck mods are "real" tail

draggers.  Thom Riddle talks of his heavy tailed Slingshot.  I can assure

you the Hauck/MKIII has more weight and much longer arm than a Slingshot.  I

have flown both, many times, and can give a good comparison between my

airplane and a Slingshot.  It will be much harder for a low time Kolb pilot,

or high time pilot of a standard built Kolb to adjust to my MKIII.  However,

once you get the hang of it, in a short time it becomes normal, and the

benefits of not having to worry about getting your Kolb up on its nose,

either from power application or terrain surface or taxiing in a tail wind

will become quite apparent.  In over 3,100 hours I have never had my MKIII

attempt to get the tail high and the nose low while maneuvering on the

ground in all types of terrain. I have put the Firestar, Firefly, and the

factory MKIII on their noses at one time or the other.



john h

MKIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:04 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

Like Rick N. suggested, maybe we should just get a flight in a MkIII and

relax.  By all accounts, evidently Kolbs are some of the best taildraggers

around.



Mike W

 

Mike W/Kolbers:



Maybe get some "actual pilot time" in a MKIII will help get a better picture

of that aircraft's handling characteristics.



I find it difficult to make effective changes to a proven aircraft design

without having actual experience flying that aircraft.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:05 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

my extra two cents....

   I do not think it is about liking one design or the other...It is 

what sells...and allows one to stay in business...

   Innovation shows that Kolb is a viable company...

   I suspect that they could have sold  many  times  as many planes 

had the nose dragger been in the stable... Most people train in that 

miserable straight jacket of a plane, the cessna 150,  and most of 

the time their instructor has no tail time....It is during this stage 

that the tail dragger fear is instilled in the neophyte...

   Too...Kolb has to be concerned about what engines will be 

available in the near future... no 447 or 503 I  hear...

imho   again Herb

At 10:21 AM 11/15/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 > the tail dragger tames down  and is no longer a scary monster.

 >

 > boyd young

 > mkiii utah

Boyd,

   I suspect you are hitting the nail on the head the best.  For 

 those of us with little, or NO

tailwheel time, I think all we want is a stable, unscary 

plane.  Whether it is nosedragger, or taildragger,

we mostly prefer non-wingdragger.

   Like Rick N. suggested, maybe we should just get a flight in a 

 MkIII and relax.  By all accounts,

evidently Kolbs are some of the best taildraggers around.

Mike W

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: Nose wheel on a Kolb MK3X

my extra two cents....



   I do not think it is about liking one design or the other...It is what

sells...and allows one to stay in business...



imho   again Herb

 



Herb G/Kolbers:



Yes, I agree "staying in business" is of primary concern to Kolb Aircraft.

Another reason for all of us that build and fly Kolbs to give Kolb Aircraft

as much support as we can.  Every little bit we use Travis Brown to supply

our parts, even if they cost a dollar or more, is a little bit more

insurance we are going to have Kolb Aircraft when we need them.  If we fly

long enough, we are going to need repair and replacement parts.



I fly and have been flying my mkIII for nearly 20 years because I like my

airplane, I like what it does and what it doesn't do.  If I didn't, I'd

either change it to suit "me" or I would sell it and build something else.



This flight to Starhill, LA, last weekend was great for refreshing my memory

of how much I enjoy the mkIII and my friends and folks that fly Kolbs.  When

the mkIII sits in the hanger for months on end, I get those feelings I

probably need to sell it because of the cost of insurance, etc.  Then I get

over to the airstrip, break ground, and I know why I still have it.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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