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Making touchdown with high thrustline?

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nickc(at)mtaonline.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

John and All, 

 

Forgive me for I have not until recently been following this thread very closely. My Kolbra is still under construction, so I have only flown, or ever been in tractors.

 

If I am on final and can see that I am headed short of my tough down point, in the Champ I just increase throttle a little for a second  and I gain a little elevation and now I am lined up on touch down point.

 

So if I am in my Kolbra flying in on approach with, or without power and I see that I am going to be short of my touchdown point….what would I do?

 

Thanks,

 

Nick Cassara

Palmer, AK

 

Soon to retire and work fulltime on 607AK……..!!!!!!!!!!!

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

So if I am in my Kolbra flying in on approach with, or without power and I

see that I am going to be short of my touchdown point..what would I do?



Thanks,



Nick Cassara

 

If I was flying, I am not a flight instructor, my Kolb with power, I'd

probably add a little power.  Flying without power, adjust pitch attitude to

extend my glide.  If that didn't work...I'd probably say a little prayer and

hope I can make it across the fence.  

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

I believe that your question deals more with what a pusher will do compared to the Champ which you are used to. With my Firestar, power equates to climb. I have seen at least one Mark III that would push the nose over with power, but I consider that to be unusual rather than normal. I don't think you are going to have any trouble if you build it right.

 Larry

On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net (nickc(at)mtaonline.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

John and All, 

 

Forgive me for I have not until recently been following this thread very closely. My Kolbra is still under construction, so I have only flown, or ever been in tractors. 

 

If I am on final and can see that I am headed short of my tough down point, in the Champ I just increase throttle a little for a second  and I gain a little elevation and now I am lined up on touch down point. 

 

So if I am in my Kolbra flying in on approach with, or without power and I see that I am going to be short of my touchdown point….what would I do? 

 

Thanks,

 

Nick Cassara

Palmer, AK 

 

Soon to retire and work fulltime on 607AK……..!!!!!!!!!!!

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:18 am Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

Larry,

 Dont worry about it.  With the small  adjustment you should be making on the approach you will not notice the  difference  in the thrustline. You will just do whatever is required  without thinking about it.

 Maintain speed/attitude with the stick

 Adjust glide path with the throttle. Too high?  Close the throttle a touch. Too low? Open up a shade.

 If you try to maintain your glide path with the  stick you will be in trouble in any plane. 

 If you are too low and lift the nose to regain your  glide path you will lose speed and eventually stall.

 If you are too high and dive to regain your glide  path you will add speed and when you flare you will float on  forever.

 Just watch the inertia which is very different to  the Champ. Close the throttle on the Kolb and compared to the Champ she will  stop in midair.

  

 Good luck

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

frank goodnight

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 126

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:27 am Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

Great answer Pat.

Frank Goodnight

Firestar 2 

Arkansas



From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, February 19, 2012 7:17:57 AM

Subject: Re: Making touchdown with high thrustline?



          Larry,

 Dont worry about it.  With the small  adjustment you should be making on the approach you will not notice the  difference  in the thrustline. You will just do whatever is required  without thinking about it.

 Maintain speed/attitude with the stick

 Adjust glide path with the throttle. Too high?  Close the throttle a touch. Too low? Open up a shade.

 If you try to maintain your glide path with the  stick you will be in trouble in any plane. 

 If you are too low and lift the nose to regain your  glide path you will lose speed and eventually stall.

 If you are too high and dive to regain your glide  path you will add speed and when you flare you will float on  forever.

 Just watch the inertia which is very different to  the Champ. Close the throttle on the Kolb and compared to the Champ she will  stop in midair.

  

 Good luck

  

 Pat

    	  Quote: 	
		  

	


   

 [quote][b]

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

So if I am in my Kolbra flying in on approach with, or  without power and I see that I am going to be short of my touchdown point….what  would I do?  

Thanks,  

Nick Cassara 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

exactly the same thing.   depending on how you  are trimed,  you may need to add a bit of back pressure to over come the  high thrust line, depending on how much power you add. 
	


  

boyd  

   [quote][b]

Ducati SS

Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

Try thinking about it like this.

  If you have altitude you can trade it for airspeed.

  If you have airspeed you can trade it for altitude.

   ( we will assume no changes to power)

   So if you are coming down final at VNE you could pitch up and trade off some airspeed.



 But if you are approaching a short field just above stall speed you have no energy to trade for altitude, adding power at the same trim will maintain trimmed airspeed an cause the airplane to climb.



The only Kolb I have experience with is the firefly, and I am still learning, but so far the high thrust line pitch is minor and easy to deal with. Coming from GA the lack of inertia is the bigger issue.

tkben002

Joined: 06 Jul 2011
Posts: 54
Location: Alexandria, LA

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

Sorry, dont know how to make the quotes in blue like the others.



"If you try to maintain your glide path with the stick you will be in trouble in any plane."  I disagree here.



"exactly the same thing. depending on how you are trimed,"  My kolbra trim is basically useless, maybe you other kolb guys have something better.



"but so far the high thrust line pitch is minor and easy to deal with. Coming from GA the lack of inertia is the bigger issue."  I agree here.



CFI's have argued for as long as I know (not that long) about which is the proper method to teach students to fly.  Ie.  pitch for point, power for airspeed, or pitch for airspeed, power for point.  The thing is, is that neither are incorrect.  They are just different ways/tools/skills of acheiving the same result.



If I were teaching a new student to fly my Kolb, I would teach them pitch for point and power for airspeed.  They need to learn what the elevator was designed for (pitch control). Once they learned how to acheive consistant results then you can teach all the other methods/tricks to produce the desired outcome.



Take it for what it is worth, which is my opinion.



Travis Bennett

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:24 am Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

If I were teaching a new student to fly my Kolb, I would teach them pitch

for point and power for airspeed.  They need to learn what the elevator was

designed for (pitch control). Once they learned how to acheive consistant

results then you can teach all the other methods/tricks to produce the

desired outcome.



Travis Bennett



Travis B/Kolbers:



I agree.



Don't really know how I land my Kolb, but been able to return to earth

consistently over the years.  Doesn't really make a lot of difference one

way or the other.  Kolbs are fun airplanes and designed to enjoy.  They

respond well to almost any pilot whether experienced or novice.  Guaranteed

to put a smile on your face.



Kolbs like to be handled.  They don't fly by themselves.  They must be

constantly flown.  There are a few that have increased dihedral to make the

Kolb roll stable and a rudder airplane.  I find the Kolb is an aileron

airplane, built and rigged per plans.  They don't fly well without aileron

control, or should I say they won't fly long without aileron input.



Homer tried to squeeze all the performance out of his wing; high lift, good

slow flight characteristics, gentle stall.  The only reason he put any

dihedral in the wing was because the wings looked like they were drooping

when sitting on the ground.  He added dihedral for aesthetic reasons only,

and then minimal.  However, when he rebuilt the 1985 Oshkosh Grand Champion

Ultralight, the Firestar, he added quite a bit of dihedral to see what the

results would be.  I was honored to fly this airplane locally around the

Kolb Farm.  Was having so much fun I didn't even think of the increased

dihedral.  I was more impressed flying an original Firestar with a 503.  It

was a sky rocket.  BTW:  When Homer decided to put the 503 on the Firestar

he also built 7 rib wings for it.  



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

Ie.  pitch for point, power for airspeed, or pitch for airspeed, power for point.  The thing is, is that neither are incorrect.  They are just different ways/tools/skills of acheiving the same result.



i guess  if you look at the statement above it makes sense,,,,,,,  until you loose an engine,,,    then what do you have left...    if you pitch down to a point too far away,  you are going to stall and not make it,,,,  if you pitch to a point too close,  the speed will build up.  and you will over shoot the landing point unless you can find a way to increase drag and control the speed.    Once you become a glider there are ways to  waste altitude and maintain your speed,,,  but you cant waste speed to conserve altitude.  ie in a glider,  if you are going to come up short,,,  it is best to keep the speed, up.  to make sure you have the best chance to flair, and make the contact with the ground  as gentle as possible.    guess before i get flamed here,,,  you can give up speed to conserve altitude only till you reach the  speed that gives the maximum glide distance,,,,,  from that point giving up anymore speed will destroy altitude.  till you stall and give it up all at once.



so if you are thinking pitch for speed, power for point,,,,   in an emergency,,,  you dont have to rethink what is going on, or what to do.   



boyd y

Ducati SS

Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

If the engine quits and you trim pitch for best glide speed, then you will get maximum distance for your altitude. No need to bounce airspeed up and down.Then if you find a field close by you can circle down or otherwise bleed energy.If I am dead stick I would rather let trim take care of speed wile I look for a suitable landing area.

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:25 am Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

Kolbers,



Great discussion, and lots to be learned from so many opinions from so 

many people with so many hours of flight in so many types of aircraft.  

If you recall, when I first posted the question I offered a video taken 

from inside a jet doing approach and touchdown on an aircraft carrier 

landing.  It is very demonstrative of the control necessary to do a spot 

landing of a fighter jet like a STOL and is really interesting to "ride" 

in with the pilot.  As I said originally, the file is wmv, which is 

Windows Media Player, and the list doesn't allow that file, so I can't 

post it.  I have checked it with 3  programs and it's clean, so if there 

are any more of you who would like to see it, contact me off list and 

I'll shoot it your way.



Dave Kulp

Bethlehem, PA

FireFly 11DMK



On 2/19/2012 1:14 PM, b young wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



    Ie.  pitch for point, power for airspeed, or pitch for airspeed, power for point.  The thing is, is that neither are incorrect.  They are just different ways/tools/skills of acheiving the same result.



 i guess  if you look at the statement above it makes sense,,,,,,,  until you loose an engine,,,    then what do you have left...    if you pitch down to a point too far away,  you are going to stall and not make it,,,,  if you pitch to a point too close,  the speed will build up.  and you will over shoot the landing point unless you can find a way to increase drag and control the speed.    Once you become a glider there are ways to  waste altitude and maintain your speed,,,  but you cant waste speed to conserve altitude.  ie in a glider,  if you are going to come up short,,,  it is best to keep the speed, up.  to make sure you have the best chance to flair, and make the contact with the ground  as gentle as possible.    guess before i get flamed here,,,  you can give up speed to conserve altitude only till you reach the  speed that gives the maximum glide distance,,,,,  from that point giving up anymore speed will destroy altitude.  till you stall and give it up all at once.



 so if you are thinking pitch for speed, power for point,,,,   in an emergency,,,  you dont have to rethink what is going on, or what to do.



 boyd y

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:28 am Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

This is all good but I don't hear anything about Kolb Flaps. When the engine quits they are a valuable tool to use for landing where you want to touch down. I practice lowering the flaps while lowering the nose to maintain air speed then raising the flaps and raising the nose. Do this a few times on approach and watch how much the the touch down point will change. If your model Kolb doesn't have them oh well, you are missing a great tool. 



I normally land with one notch of flaps and some power. When I was landing at my short one way strip I could always cut power and add flaps if I misjudged my approach. If I was landing with no power and full flaps I would have fewer options. Another point is that landing with power and one notch of flaps feels just like landing with no power and no flaps. I cut power and added flaps a few times when I got surprised by a strong wind pushing me down wind into my one way strip.

 



The FAA doesn't like this but it works well in a Kolb. If you loose power use the flaps to fine tune your approach then raise them for landing. You will have a much easier round out (flare) at a time when you may need easy. Another point is that you can get the tail down first if need be to stay up right in unprepared surfaces. With flaps down it is much more difficult to get the tail down first. I used this technique to land and stay upright in a bean field a few years ago. The beans grabbed the tail wheel kind of like the hook grabbing a wire on a aircraft carrier.

 



As always worth what you paid for it.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 10:27 AM, b young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com (byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]        

  

So if I am in my Kolbra flying in on approach with, or  without power and I see that I am going to be short of my touchdown point….what  would I do?  

Thanks,  

Nick Cassara 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 



exactly the same thing.   depending on how you  are trimed,  you may need to add a bit of back pressure to over come the  high thrust line, depending on how much power you add. 

  

boyd  

    	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

tkben002

Joined: 06 Jul 2011
Posts: 54
Location: Alexandria, LA

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

"so if you are thinking pitch for speed, power for point,,,, in an emergency,,, you dont have to rethink what is going on, or what to do. "    ....................either of the 2 methodologies only work perfectly when you have not lost one of your control inputs.  ie...if you lose an engine you cannot power for point as you have no power, same as if you lose your elevator control you cannot pitch for point.  You should always practice worst case scenarios so you will be prepared for them when they come.



In the bigger scheme of things Kolb related....you are rarely only going to make changes to either pitch or power alone.



Travis Bennett

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:21 am Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

No need to bounce airspeed up and down.Then if you find a field close by you 

can circle down or otherwise bleed energy.If I am dead stick I would rather 

let trim take care of speed wile I look for a suitable landing area.>>



Hi,

In my experience it is the surrounding air which is `bouncing the airspeed 

up and down` not the pilot. He is usually busy correcting for the wind 

induced speed  variation.

`Trim for speed?` I suppose in the still of an evening that might be 

possible. Probably not in normal flight conditions. Trim, in  aircraft with 

as little inertia as ours would not maintain your speed reliably enough for 

you to `look around for a landing field`



I always trim nose heavy so that when I am `looking around` even on a normal 

approach  the tendency is for speed to increase NOT wander towards a stall.



Regarding `looking around for a place to land`.  I remember flying in a 

Jackaroo (a Tiger Moth with a lid on) with a very experienced pilot. In fact 

he later became World Gliding Champion. We were in the cruise and I said "If 

the engine quit now where would we land` Without a moments hesitation he 

said `There` pointing at the ground 1500 feet directly below us.



I have only lost power twice. Once at about 300 ft agl on the approach. 

Nowhere to go except the field full of cows directly in front of me. Once at 

around 1000ft agl. Time moves quickly. There are a few seconds lost while 

the fact that your power has gone registers. A bit more while you sort out 

your airspeed and get the nose down

Where is the wind? Is there time to turn into wind anyway?. Probably not. Is 

there a field at all. In the UK there usually is but it will usually be 

small with surrounding walls or hedges. Will you make the field you want? 

The thing I miss in the Kolb is being unable to side slip. Well, you can but 

it doesn`t achieve much. Previously I was able to maintain a clean wing and 

side slip height off. Kick straight and be back in a reasonable glide angle. 

Much simpler that putting flaps up and down.

By the time you have sorted that lot out you are at 50ft or less going like 

a bat out of hell because you don`t want to stall  You will probably not 

make a tidy landing. I arrived on the ground with brakes full on (the 

advantage of tricycle undercart) in a cloud of dust  with the far wall 

approaching fast.

You will spend a lot of time afterwards wondering what you did wrong. 

Probably nearly everything. What you did right. Well!. You walked away (With 

luck)What you can improve.Practice dead stick and EXPECT to lose an engine.

In a glider until you get very experienced you will always know where the 

wind is coming from and you will have a field picked out where you will land 

if you can`t work the last thermal. And you will probably have a 10 mile 

radius to search over from 1500ft.  In a Kolb from a 1000ft your time and 

field choices are strictly limited.

Part of the trouble is that engines are now so much improved that we no 

longer fly expecting the engine to quit Perhaps we should. New pilots 

beginning to fly now will probably never experience an engine out whereas 

the older guys expected the engine to fail .That awareness bought that extra 

few seconds which you desperately need in those circumstances.



Cheers



Pat

Ducati SS

Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

Best glide speed is usually a fair bit higher than stall. Every mph above best glide speed will shorten the glide distance and reduce landing options. obviously rough air and wind will require corrections but a well designed airplane will always return to its trimmed speed. Yes our lightweight airplanes are like a leaf in the breeze and sometimes require a different technique. My comments were of a general nature. We lost a local UL pilot not long ago, last sighting had him unusually low. We may never know what happened but I often wounder how many of these crashes are caused when the pilot finds he is low and slow and tries to arrest the descent with pitch instead of power.

  Way back in 1980 when I was taking flying lessons I paid little attention to engine out proceedures, I thought this is an airplane engine it won't ever quit. Well in the years since I have been shocked at how many pilots have had engine failures. I had an 0200 lose power on climb out ( fortunately it recovered on it,s own ) and then days later quit just after touch down.  I expect every engine in every piece of equipment I operate to quit at some point.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:01 am Post subject: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

how many of these crashes are caused when the pilot finds he is low and slow 

and tries to arrest the descent with pitch instead of power.



It takes a lot of willpower NOT to pull the nose up when you see the ground 

looming up. Its the natural thing to do.



Pat

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Making touchdown with high thrustline?

 	  neilsenrm(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  This is all good but I don't hear anything about Kolb Flaps. When the engine quits they are a valuable tool to use for landing where you want to touch down. Iï¿½practiceï¿½lowering the flaps while lowering the nose to maintain air speed thenï¿½raisingï¿½the flaps andï¿½raisingï¿½the nose. Do this a few times on approach and watch how much the the touch down point will change. If your model Kolb doesn't have them oh well, you are missing a great tool. 



I normally land with one notch of flaps and some power. When I was landing at my short one way strip I could always cut power and add flaps if I misjudged my approach. If I was landing with no power and full flaps I would have fewer options. Another point is that landing with power and one notch of flaps feels just like landing with no power and no flaps. I cut power and added flaps a few times when I gotï¿½surprisedï¿½by a strong wind pushing me down wind into my one way strip.

 



The FAA doesn't like this but it works well in a Kolb. If you loose power use the flaps to fine tune your approach then raise them for landing. You will have a muchï¿½easierï¿½round out (flare) at a time when you may need easy. Another point is that you can get the tail down first if need be to stay up right in unprepared surfaces. With flaps down it is much more difficult to get the tail down first. I used this technique to land and stay upright in a bean field a few years ago. The beans grabbed the tail wheel kind of like the hook grabbing a wire on a aircraft carrier. 



As always worth what you paid for it.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



[b] 	




Good point. Years ago when I converted the MKIII from pre-mix 532 to oil injected 582, unbeknownst to me, the oil tank had a spider web tucked away in one of the upper corners, apparently collected from years of sitting on a shelf. A couple months later, when it finally detached itself and blocked the oil feed line to the oil pump, me and #1 daughter suddenly found ourselves in a quiet airplane about 1,000 agl and on final for a miniscule R/C airplane strip. (Thank you Lord, perfect spot!)



Used the stick to maintain airspeed, and flaps to control the descent, nailed it and got it stopped in the available distance. Obviously a better pilot might not have needed the flaps, but they are an excellent tool for dealing with engine outs, and they work for that exactly as Rick says.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

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