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stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:01 am Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

So, certain thoughts are starting to swirl in my head and they're not positive. N20VE is now in for her second annual during my tenure. Lately, she's been nothing but the most reliable airplane one could wish to have - not a single squawk in about 100hr. And since I spent $35K on her last year, I'd expect a pretty painless annual. However, I was due for a beatdown.



Dropped her off at HHR for the annual and immediately we find out I'm overdue on the 250hr prop hub inspection - something I'd never heard of before. Not only that, the 500hr inspection is coming up as well. The props have also never been O/H, so they need to be done. We're talking $10K here, for something that is due for another inspection and might fail in 500hrs.. Wing Spar inspection is due. This is no biggie, but still 20 man hours and dye penetrant and all that. It'll last another 500hrs... And in less than 300 hrs, the front spar cap inspection is due, which is also time limited. A bigger deal. Flap pulleys and cable AD needs to be done, etc, etc. So I'm already up to a $20K annual without them even having her opened up and finding any nasty stuff...



The left engine has 50hrs left to run before TBO. Now, that doesn't scare me as she makes no metal and has great compression, but still, it will have to be dealt with sooner or later. The last quote I got is $38K from Corona Engines here in CA to do ONE engine... The right engine is only 150hrs behind... New paint job (it's bad) quote I got was $18K. The avionics panel is a mess and she's barely legal to fly IFR in...



So, basically, I would have to spend at least $110K to take care of all these issues. Now, I can just do the annual and play it by ear and see things get worse and spend as little money as possible, but then the problem just gets delayed. Also, my mission is changing. I need to go long distances for work and I could use something a little faster and more capable. My question is, am I just throwing money down a black hole? I could sell her as she sits now and get $20K, easily, save the $20K in annual and have $40K towards something more capable. A $110K today will buy you a whole lotta twin...



I'm just starting to wonder who these people are that are supposed to take care of our technical heritage? The millionaires will fly around in PC12's and TBM850's - they don't give a damn about old 520's (unless they're warbirds - then everyone is willing to spend money). So it's left to us "normal" people to take care of these old planes and keep them flying, but the reality is because of all the regulations and the stuff, it will ruin us and we will have to give up sooner rather than later. Combine this with a very bad financial year where I've struggled to make ends meet and it's starting to wear me down. I'm just a bit disenchanted at the moment... Thoughts?

_________________
Adam

kerry(at)kvelectric.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:17 am Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

When asked how much does it cost to maintain an airplane; a wise man once

said; "a little more than you have". 



Seems like every aircraft I've ever owned has cost a lot more than I ever

expected it to cost. And that's true from a C24R Beech Serria to T210, P210,

58P Baron, B60 Duke, Aerostar 601 & 602P with standard 290 HP engines and

700 series 350 HP engines and of course the 400LS Cheyenne. Never once had a

plane that cost as much or less than I figured...



Whatever you have; your aircraft will consume. 



--

andrew.bridget(at)telus.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:49 pm Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

A quick glance at Controller.com shows you could pick up an older (late

'60s) Baron 55 or early '70s Cessna 310Q & late '70s 310R for under $100K.

But...you could also be buying somebody else's problems. The only aircraft

that I know of that didn't cost as much as expected in maintenance was my

dad's old Cherokee 1969 235C. Although he piled on the hours, he babied it

and when it came to being due for major overhaul the shop opened it up and

found everything to be within new tolerances. It was burned in 1977 by

so-called freedom fighters--to us terrorists--after which he bought the V35

Bonanza. It was the only time I saw my old man cry.



Could you miss the 250 hour inspection and go straight to the 500hour

one...and do the spar cap inspection at the same time as the wing spar? It

might not save you much. 



Andrew



--

Richard(at)flycorp.com.au
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

Adam,



Do the annual.

Spread the rest out over time. 

At the end you will have an airplane that is a known quantity, just the way

you like it.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that for 100K you will get better. You

will just be buying someone else's problems.

Spending up big to get it to the standard you want.



There are faster, sleeker twins out there.

But when the runways short,rough and you have too much stuff, One engine is

silent, THERE IS NO OTHER TWIN I WOULD RATHER BE IN.

I own a whole lot of Pipers, Have owned Cessnas and they are junk compared

to a Commander.



There is nothing better than being at some flyin where. There are Cubs,

180's, ultralights, and a 680E. Not a Piper, Cessna or Beech product in

sight.

Did I mention the SOUND?



I have spent way too much money on my Commander and will continue to do so.

I know what I have got and love it. Will I get any of it back? NO.

The 680E works great with a well developed sense of self preservation.

Times are hard here too. I attempt to make a living out of airplanes. At the

moment survival is the word. Things will get better.

Sort out the things that will kill you and do the pretty things

progressively. 



Just the thoughts of an airplane nut.



Cheers,

Richard



--

stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

Andrew, that's what I'm doing. The 250hr inspection gets incorporated into the 500hr one, so I'm doing both by doing the 500 one. The front spar cap inspection at 6000hrs is another inspection - it's where they have to cut a little hole in the leading edge and inspect, so I'll wait with that one as it's much more involved. This one is done from the interior at WS24 on the main spar. It's happening as we speak in case there are any troubles here, because then all the other stuff doesn't make any sense to fix.. I'm sure it's fine. They're sturdy birds.



But basically, even if all is kosher, from now on I have to comply with one 250hr inspection where the hubs (and therefore the props) has to be sent off, then another at 500hrs and then multiple 500hr inspections at the main spar and front spar cap from now on. Plus all the other stuff like flap AD and that. It adds up. There are the Queen Air props STC without the AD, but they're far and few between.



Thanks Richard - good to hear some encouraging words to carry on. I do love my 520!

_________________
Adam

white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:14 pm Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

Or... You could by my 560F in great mechanical condition, with only 125 hours on the engines and props!



Craig

N747H



Sent from my iPad3!



On Sep 6, 2012, at 2:49 PM, "Andrew & Bridget Watson" <andrew.bridget(at)telus.net> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 A quick glance at Controller.com shows you could pick up an older (late

 '60s) Baron 55 or early '70s Cessna 310Q & late '70s 310R for under $100K.

 But...you could also be buying somebody else's problems. The only aircraft

 that I know of that didn't cost as much as expected in maintenance was my

 dad's old Cherokee 1969 235C. Although he piled on the hours, he babied it

 and when it came to being due for major overhaul the shop opened it up and

 found everything to be within new tolerances. It was burned in 1977 by

 so-called freedom fighters--to us terrorists--after which he bought the V35

 Bonanza. It was the only time I saw my old man cry.

 

 Could you miss the 250 hour inspection and go straight to the 500hour

 one...and do the spar cap inspection at the same time as the wing spar? It

 might not save you much. 

 

 Andrew

 

 --

stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

I do like 560F's, especially the long range capabilities combined with good short field performance. But if I ever upgrade sometime in the future it'll be an Aerostar 601P. You get into one for less than a 500, pressurised, full de-ice. Burn 25gph at 190kts - same as mine burns at 140kts.... It's Ted Smith, no wing AD's ever, built like tanks, no funny geared engines that will ruin you come O/H. Sure, it's more complex, but it's swings and roundabouts. At least you can overhaul the engines at Wall-Mart and get parts everywhere. Aviation is expensive as it is without having to deal with engines that no one except mister-I-have-the-last-spare-parts-ever-made-for-these-and-I'm-the-only-one-that-can-overhaul-them-so-I'll-charge-you-an-arm-and-a-leg. Non standard stuff costs more money, it's as simple as that. And unfortunately in the case of Aero Commander, every model has orphaned or "funny" stuff in the form of engines, pressurisation etc. The only one that is straighforward is the 500-series - and they cost twice as much to buy than any other similar twin. As the base of 520's, 560's and 680's go away, there's no way the cost of owning these is going to go down.



Sorry, I'm just a bit disillusioned by it all right now...

_________________
Adam

Last edited by stratobee on Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:50 pm; edited 2 times in total

tylorhall(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

Adam,

There is a 520 in Oklahoma that has two engines, props, and it flew in several years ago.

It can be bought very cheep.  The owner got it in a bankruptcy.   I have photos of N52WD.

Tylor Hall



On Sep 6, 2012, at 4:05 PM, stratobee wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Andrew, that's what I'm doing. The 250hr inspection gets incorporated into the 500hr one, so I'm doing both by doing the 500 one. The front spar cap inspection at 6000hrs is another inspection - it's where they have to cut a little hole in the leading edge and inspect, so I'll wait with that one as it's much more involved. This one is done from the interior at WS24 on the main spar. It's happening as we speak in case there are any troubles here, because then all the other stuff doesn't make any sense to fix.. I'm sure it's fine. They're sturdy birds.

 

 But basically, even if all is kosher, from now on I have to comply with one 250hr inspection where the hubs (and therefore the props) has to be sent off, then another at 500hrs and then multiple 500hr inspections at the main spar and front spar cap from now on. Plus all the other stuff like flap AD and that. It adds up...

 

 --------

 Adam

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382538#382538

stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

Tylor - do you know how much time is on the engines and how much he'd want for them?

_________________
Adam

kerry(at)kvelectric.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:48 pm Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

Adam,



I have around 800 hours in 601P's and I can't imagine a power setting where

you would see a fuel burn of 25 gph. What altitudes would you be flying at?

The 601P's I've flown have all performed best at in the low flight levels;

FL190-230 and would usually cruise at 230-240 KTA burning 34-36 gph.



If you want to fly at the same altitudes you fly your Commander a 600 would

be a better choice since it's not turbocharged and could burn in that 25 gph

range; you would still see speeds in excess of 200 KTA.



--

stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

Kerry - this was from a Lean Of Peak guy I flew with in his 601P. His talk could be trying to impress me, but it's not beyond the realm of the possible considering 190kts is a pretty low power setting. Granted, it was high up, much higher than my 520 would fly. So at a similar altitude, low teens, I'm sure the burn would go up.

_________________
Adam

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:25 pm Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

Hi Kerry,



Very true words. I appreciate your efforts to prove the contemporary wisdom

wrong. I mean, if a Beech Sierra doesn't cut it, then step up. Perhaps with

a 400 knot Cheyenne the numbers just won't be able to keep up. I fully agree

with that pathway to proving the naysayers wrong. Next step after the

Cheyenne, of course, would be a Gulfstream and if that's still not closing

the loop, I'll go for a Boeing 777 business jet. That ought to do it. 



Some thought, huh?



Just kidding.



Nico



--

yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

HI ADAM.......I am sorry, but not surprised to hear of your of your troubles.  Anytime an old Commnader shows up at a shop like that, the outcome is predictable.  Your mechanic should always be older than the airplane he is working on.  First, the AD on the forward spar does not apply to your airplane.  I doesn't even have the parts to be inspected installed.  The 560A was the first model to have the straps.  But, it is probably a moot point.  Last April a service letter was issued from Hartzell that suspended the service instructions for your propellers.  In other words, they can no longer be overhauled.  They can, at great expense, be upgraded to the MV design, but this would require replacing basically everything in your props.  I am going to be speaking on this issue at the flyin.  We did talk about the 250hr inspection when I checked you out in your airplane.  You may remember that I had a pair of low time, no AD props for sale?  You passed at the time and I  later sold them for a 560, sorry:-(    I dont know what to tell you.  I am going to contact Hartzell and see if there is any other solution, but am not hopeful as I feel they just don't want these old propellers around anymore.  jb    

  

  

  --

stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

I should have bough those then, but I didn't have any money left after the first big annual!



Are you saying Hartzell won't let them be overhauled or inspected at all? Because buying new props is a $70K deal, which would be the end of all 520's.

_________________
Adam

stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

It looks like the old girl will see another day. It was touch and go.



I had a bit of luck in that I have the newer V style hubs and not the unserviceable X hubs. So the prop AD inspection should be achievable. Now, if they fail, then that might be another matter.. I've also seem to have come across two newly O/H GO'435's for a good price, and will try to get my hands on those for future upgrade. Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend fly-in, but hopefully next year.

_________________
Adam

yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

Glad things are looking up Adam.  The boys from Australia said to tell you that if they can come half-way around the world to be at the event that you could come a few miles to attend!!  Seriously, we would love to see you and know you would have a good time with everyone and learn more about Commanders.  

  

  

  --

stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

After almost 3 months at HHR getting probed and touched un-gentlemanlike in all her cavities, the old girl took to the skies for a brief test flight today. She was happy to be up basking in the California sun and purred like a kitten with her newly overhauled prop hubs and cylinders. New metalwork on her tail feathers as well, so she shook those for everyone to see. No squawks. It's not as easy to kill an old 520 as one thinks... Personally, I was going crazy not flying for so long, so it was very nice to be back in the saddle again. Now, I'll just have to rob a bank to be able to afford that $21K check.....

_________________
Adam

aero560e(at)GMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

Congratulations on your passion and patience in getting the old gal flying again Adam!

 



 

 On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:11 PM, stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)>

 

After almost 3 months at HHR getting probed and touched un-gentlemanlike in all her cavities, the old girl took to the skies for a brief test flight today. She was happy to be up basking in the California sun and purred like a kitten with her newly overhauled prop hubs and cylinders. New metalwork on her tail feathers as well, so she shook those for everyone to see. No squawks. It's not as easy to kill an old 520 as one thinks... Personally, I was going crazy not flying for so long, so it was very nice to be back in the saddle again. Now, I'll just have to rob a bank to be able to afford that $21K check.....

 

--------

Adam





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388377#388377

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[b]

cloudcraft(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

That's a more cheerful report than learning one of our fraternity has gone west.





Have you considered robbing a liquor store?  Easier than banks and if you get into a protracted stand-off with a SWAT team the refreshments are better.





Keith S. Gordon

on the fly



 

stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> wrote:

--> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>



After almost 3 months at HHR getting probed and touched un-gentlemanlike in all her cavities, the old girl took to the skies for a brief test flight today. She was happy to be up basking in the California sun and purred like a kitten with her newly overhauled prop hubs and cylinders. New metalwork on her tail feathers as well, so she shook those for everyone to see. No squawks. It's not as easy to kill an old 520 as one thinks... Personally, I was going crazy not flying for so long, so it was very nice to be back in the saddle again. Now, I'll just have to rob a bank to be able to afford that $21K check.....



--------

Adam





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388377#388377



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stratobee

Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on keeping an old 520 flying...

I'm afraid the temptation to drink myself silly rather than get the cash would be far too great... Is there no IRS tax depot somewhere one could heist a little bit?

_________________
Adam

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