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Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

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trevpond(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

Hi David,



You need to have a word with Neville Eyre - there isn't a soul on the planet who knows more about "rubbing down" Europa's.



Nev can be contacted be email on this forum.



Regards

Trev Pond 

G-LINN



Sent from my iPhone 



On 28 Dec 2012, at 20:40, "G-ODTW" <dave(at)robotas.co.uk> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I thought it a good idea to get my tailplanes balanced before I put my top on. They needed filling (I used Ampreg21/Expancel as per Europa manual) & then will need painting. But I am now finding it a heck of a job to sand the filler. After 2 days of it, I have had enough. The sandpaper constantly clogs, and it is bl**** hard work - And my Classic wings are much bigger than the tail!

 Some people seem instead to use Superfil. But I am also told that SP106 is the resin many people use for the surface filling job, which sands without problems, presumably with the supplied Expancel.

 

 Many folk have trodden this path before me, using many methods. 20 years on, is there now a "best practice" for filling / sanding / painting?

 

 All advice greatfully received. Thanks. Dave Walters.

 

 --------

 David Walters

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391094#391094

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

Dave

I use a 1/6 by volume addition of Cabosil (colloidal silica) mixed with the expancell. It enables about 50% more expancell to be added to the same amount of resin.

It is best to be consistent as possible with the amount of resin and expancell you mix to avoid variations in the filler

Superfil is an easier solution but expensive. For rough  sanding I use a very sharp small wood plane, (Russ Lefevre gave me that tip) it cuts through the incompletely 

cured resin: the heat of sanding softens the resin unless it is fully cured, (which takes days,) and that clogs the paper.

Graham

        From: G-ODTW <dave(at)robotas.co.uk>

 To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012, 20:40

 Subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "G-ODTW" <dave(at)robotas.co.uk (dave(at)robotas.co.uk)>



I thought it a good idea to get my tailplanes balanced before I put my top on. They needed filling (I used Ampreg21/Expancel as per Europa manual) & then will need painting. But I am now finding it a heck of a job to sand the filler. After 2 days of it, I have had enough. The sandpaper constantly clogs, and it is bl**** hard work - And my Classic wings are much bigger than the tail!

Some people seem instead to use Superfil. But I am also told that SP106 is the resin many people use for the surface filling job, which sands  without problems, presumably with the supplied Expancel.



Many folk have trodden this path before me, using many methods. 20 years on, is there now a "best practice" for filling / sanding / painting?



All advice greatfully received. Thanks. Dave Walters.



--------

David Walters





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391094#391094



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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:34 am Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Great advice Graham.

 We learned the hard way here at the shop.  Consistency is the  key.  I mix the expand cell until the stick practically or does break when  mixing then allow it to sit for 20 minutes to gas off and apply with a  plastic spatula.  If you leave it thin enough to roll it on, it will be  heavy.  So make it thick enough not to sag but not dry enough that you  can't spread it without it rolling off.  I'm not at the shop but I believe  we use a 4 to one ratio for thin and 6 to one for thick.  Cleanliness  of the surface is next to Godliness and a careful scuffing with 80 grit is  all that is required for bond. If your cured filler is gooey and  doesn't seem to sand without clogging, check your epoxy mix ratio and your  expand cell amount added and the all important cure temp.  

  

 I use Aeropoxy because it cures at 75 degrees or higher in low  humidity in 8 hours and cures pretty rock solid.  Ampreg 21   likes to be warm and dry, closer to 100 to 130 F and cures  slow.  Alas, even the Superfil has a slightly gooey top coat when  cured..  Using the cheese grater type wood rasp or plane is good for  us amateurs to knock off that skim layer, then give it a day and go to  sandpaper.  Where we usually screw up is we put too little filler on.   The pros put on more filler and leave 90% of it on the floor.  My body shop  uses Superfil because of its consistency and cures it in the paint booth in dry  and warm conditions.  A thicker layer cures quite well.  If  it is applied in a thin film, by the time you get the goo layer off, you have no  filler left.  Allow the Superfil or Expandcell to set after mixing for  20 minutes (at 75 F) then spread to a 1/8 inch coat.  The pros can do a  smooth application but they and I leave the ridges and drag lines alone.   Like a scab, don't pick at it.  Superfil cures fully overnight at  about 80 degrees, but runs on vertical surfaces like the fuselage side so be  prepared.  After cure, they cut it with the mud hog (large random orbital  sander with 55 or 60 grit) and they throw sand paper away as soon as it  clogs.  For finishing, they use a random orbital sander with a 2 foot  by 9 inch plate as the sanding platform, giving superb  results.  Johnny can fill an XS in a week, but cure time has to  be perfect as well as the workload in his shop.  I find for quick jobs, I  use expand cell mixed thick and sprinkle a bit of plastic micro or Cabosil on  top to make it sandable quicker.  The micro/cabosil sprinkle just  reduces the gummy top coat as it absorbs some of the goo.  A friend of mine  with a scratch built Long EZ filled his weave with wet epoxy and sprinkled on 3M  glass sphere micro (rather than Expandcel which are an expanded  plastic sphere very compatible with epoxy resins) in large quantities and  allowed it to cure.  It is a bit heavy.  He vacuumed off the  dust (he has a bagged Shop Vac) and then lightly sanded the surface to  get it smooth but with irritating glass bubbles everywhere.  Now that the  weave was filled, he then applied Superfil over the now smoother but roughened  surface.  If your Classic wing is very rough, like mine was, you can use  thick fishing line or string trimmer line, hung every couple feet to judge  the thickness of your filler as others have written about. Then backfill  the line holes.  Sand until you start seeing the color of the glass coming  through on the high spots. Sand with 80 grit then finish to 150 or 220.   Coat with primer such as Dupont 2K or with the finishing system of your  choice.  Sand again down to 320 grit and prime again.  Be sure to use  a good UV protection polyurethane paint for your final finish.  It will be  gorgeous. 

  

 Superfil is my preferred filler.  I believe you get what you pay  for.  However, I still use Expandcel quite a lot.  Support your piece  well as some components tend to sag a bit and I have built in a bent flap by  sanding without center support and made the upper surface flat but the flap bent  under my sanding pressure...  Oh well, sand it off and redo it is the  cure.

  

 Please use caution and a good mask when using fillers.  3 M Micro  glass spheres will kill your eyes and lungs, Cabosil isn't a lot safer as it is  silica, and Expandcel uses an expanded plastic sphere or cell and  Superfil supposedly uses the same (it is not talc per se) but that  isn't completely safe either though it has a pretty clean MSDS sheet.  So  wear protection.  Get good shoes and a block sander and  "git-er-done".

  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly

 Tech support.

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

As always great advice from bud, one thing I found when doing my tailplanes

was that it seems much easier to

Sand if the filler is left for a few days or more to cure. 



Sanding a few hours after cure using RADID hardener seemed very hard work,

paper continually clogging

But the same surface a couple of days later was much better, and no clogging



Good luck



craig

G-ODTW

Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 22
Location: Meopham, Kent, UK

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP1

Thanks to everyone for your advice on tailplane filling. I have spoken to Nev Eyre, and I think I can now see how to progress.

_________________
David Walters
01474 816817
dave@robotas.com

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:53 pm Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

David

don't forget, 

1 You need to be extremely accurate/consistent with the resin/expancell ratio. Adding cabosil helps reduce pinholes and you 

can add 30% more expancell because it will spread easier.

2 Get it all on in one pass after an initial fill of any obvious hollows.

Graham

        From: G-ODTW <dave(at)robotas.co.uk>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Monday, 7 January 2013, 22:39

 Subject:  Re: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "G-ODTW" <dave(at)robotas.co.uk (dave(at)robotas.co.uk)>



Many thanks Nev (and everyone else who helped me out). Hopefully this article will help others too. I hope you don't get too many people arguing with you. They should know you're the Europa man! 



--------

David Walters

01474 816817

dave(at)robotas.com (dave(at)robotas.com)





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391774#391774

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nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:56 pm Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

A good bit of advice from Craig and Bud.

All resins continue to cure (allbeit very slowly) over the years and as they 

do, they shrink a little The longer you can leave it between filling and 

sanding, the better the finish you will achieve. If you have ever walked 

down a flight line of Europas and noticed the clear outline of spars and 

ribs in the beautifully painted wing surfaces, it's because the filler 

contined to shrink after they were painted.

If (like me) your build extends to years rather than months, you could fill 

the wings (as per Bud's instructions) and simply leave them and move onto 

other tasks before returning to flattening and painting. I left mine for 

over six months.

I too have had great results with SuperFil, though the downside  is cost.



Happy New Year to everyone



Nigel

---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:59 am Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

Nigel

I've never used Superfil but have recommended it, it is the simplest way to achieve consistent density of the filler.

Mixing expancell consistently is near impossible, the filler is so light it can't be weighed accurately in the quantities we use. Equally difficult

 to be consistent with volume because  it compacts so easily. I wonder if compacting it first  then weighing it would work?

Never tried that

Graham

        From: "nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk"  <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, 30 December 2012, 8:50

 Subject: Re: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)>



A good bit of advice from Craig and Bud.

All resins continue to cure (allbeit very slowly) over the years and as they do, they shrink a little The longer you can leave it between filling and sanding, the better the finish you will achieve. If you have ever walked down a flight line of Europas and noticed the clear outline of spars and ribs in the beautifully painted wing surfaces, it's because the filler contined to  shrink after they were painted.

If (like me) your build extends to years rather than months, you could fill the wings (as per Bud's instructions) and simply leave them and move onto other tasks before returning to flattening and painting. I left mine for over six months.

I too have had great results with SuperFil, though the downside  is cost.



Happy New Year to everyone



Nigel

---

G-ODTW

Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 22
Location: Meopham, Kent, UK

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP1

Again, thanks to Nev, Bud, Graham, Craig, Nigel, Bob, & everyone else. I now feel I know how to prepare those acres of surfaces. My tail planes were made many years back. Now the sleeves are no longer coaxial, so I am sure that epoxy does move with time. Therefore I will be following that advice about filling the wings and leaving them somewhere warm for months before sanding them. Maybe another 45 deg C soak.

_________________
David Walters
01474 816817
dave@robotas.com

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:45 pm Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

On Dec 30, 2012, at 12:50 AM, <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk 

 > wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I too have had great results with SuperFil, though the downside  is  

 cost.


	


Nigel...have you kept track of total quantity of SuperFil used?...on  

Classic? or XS?...jus curious, Fred

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 219

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:10 am Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

<<..it's because the filler 

continued to shrink after they were painted.>>



Yes it does, and the fabric weave started to print through on the finished

surface of mine after about 5 years, even after 12 months of original filler

curing in continuous warm dry conditions.

Otherwise, I don't think the blue foam is that stable either, particularly

where there's only about 1/2" under the skin.



Poly Fiber's Smooth Prime (in passing and for the continued avoidance of

doubt) is a disaster and should be avoided. 

Note to Polyfiber if you're listening: please try suing me for internet

deformation (you'll lose), or pay for a refinish!



Duncan McF.



--

gholland(at)content-strea
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:17 am Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

Three Weetabix this morning Duncan?

Gerry

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:54 am Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

On Jan 13, 2013, at 1:10 AM, Duncan & Ami wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Poly Fiber's Smooth Prime (in passing and for the continued  

 avoidance of

 doubt) is a disaster and should be avoided.


	


Duncan,



I'd be interested to know a bit about what's led to your conclusions  

about Smooth Prime...



I've used almost 2 gal. of it on my XS (with most of it being sanded  

off of course), and can report that my experiences w/ its roller  

application and sanding have been quite satisfactory...but perhaps  

I've troubles lurking down the road...?...



Fred

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:08 am Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

Duncan,



Likewise, I am curious as to the issues you had.  Initially I used a roller, but latter I used a spray gun. The paint went on in 2004 and so far its holding up okay. 

 



I had the same issue of everything "printing through" after about a year,

Cheers, Paul





 [quote]

 

 

 On Jan 13, 2013, at 1:10 AM, Duncan & Ami wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   Poly Fiber's Smooth Prime (in passing and for the continued avoidance of

 doubt) is a disaster and should be avoided.

 	
 

 Duncan,

 

 I'd be interested to know a bit about what's led to your conclusions about Smooth Prime...

 

 I've used almost 2 gal. of it on my XS (with most of it being sanded off of course), and can report that my experiences w/ its roller application and sanding have been quite satisfactory...but perhaps I've troubles lurking down the road...?...

  

 Fred[b]

N6ZY

Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:59 pm Post subject: Filling/Painting Classic wings & Tail. SUPERFIL? SP106?

I used Smooth Prime and Superfil on the Lancair that I built.  I had no problems with either of them, and they were a lot easier to use than the alternatives.  I intend to use them again on my Europa.

Jerry Fisher

On Jan 14, 2013, at 11:53 AM, Fred Klein wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Jan 13, 2013, at 1:10 AM, Duncan & Ami wrote:

> Poly Fiber's Smooth Prime (in passing and for the continued avoidance of

> doubt) is a disaster and should be avoided.

 Duncan,

 I'd be interested to know a bit about what's led to your conclusions about Smooth Prime...

 I've used almost 2 gal. of it on my XS (with most of it being sanded off of course), and can report that my experiences w/ its roller application and sanding have been quite satisfactory...but perhaps I've troubles lurking down the road...?...

 Fred

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