Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Mike Whisky

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 336
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:51 pm Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

Check out this video this guy is flying an aileron roll with a the RV-10, I guess thats not it was designed for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzvjPuXwf4U

_________________
RV-10 builder (flying)
#511

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:23 pm Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

He's not the first and likely won't be the last!     



Not that I'd recommend it at all, but as good ole' Bob Hoover has shown, a

nicely executed roll is just about exactly 1G through the entire

thing...even if you are pouring a cup of tea whilst doing it in an airplane

not designed for it.  I believe Tex Johnson also caught a bit of flak for

doing the same thing in a 707!



Cheers,

Stein 





--

EdKranz

Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 132
Location: Hastings, MN

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:43 am Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

This article explains the different types of rolls:

http://www.iacusn.org/schools/reprints/08aug_rollisa.pdf

As this article states, what Bob Hoover did in the Shrike Commander was an aileron roll, and he was able to do it at a constant 1G. You've probably seen the video of him pouring tea during the roll. The article also explains that this maneuver begins with a ~20 degree nose up, then roll, which is what the youtube video shows. If he did the manuver correctly he should have been at 1G or less the entire time.

A barrel role is a combination of a loop and a roll, and at the bottom of the loop portion, you will be over 1G.

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Frank Davis <fdavis101454(at)gmail.com (fdavis101454(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Frank Davis <fdavis101454(at)gmail.com (fdavis101454(at)gmail.com)>

 What Bob Hoover and Tex Johnson did were barrel rolls, not aileron

 rolls. Big difference.

 On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:01 AM, RV10-List Digest Server

 <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:

 > *

 >

 > Time: 03:53:25 PM PST US

 > Subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

 > From: "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net (rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net)>

 >

 >

 > Check out this video this guy is flying an aileron roll with a the RV-10, I guess

 > thats not it was designed for.

 > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzvjPuXwf4U

 >

 > --------

 > RV-10 builder (interior &amp; finishing)

 > #511

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393323#393323

 >

 >

 > ________________________________  Message 2  _____________________________________

 >

 >

 > Time: 04:23:59 PM PST US

 > From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com (stein(at)steinair.com)>

 > Subject: RE: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

 >

 >

 > He's not the first and likely won't be the last! 

 >

 > Not that I'd recommend it at all, but as good ole' Bob Hoover has shown, a

 > nicely executed roll is just about exactly 1G through the entire

 > thing...even if you are pouring a cup of tea whilst doing it in an airplane

 > not designed for it.  I believe Tex Johnson also caught a bit of flak for

 > doing the same thing in a 707!

 >

 > Cheers,

 > Stein

 >

 >

 [b]

_________________
Ed Kranz
RV10
Finishing
www.edandcolleen.com

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:48 pm Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

Great article!  Thanks for that.  I too always thought Hoover was doing 

a barrel roll in the Shrike but the explanation here makes much more 

sense.   I kind of feel sorry for those who never got the chance to see 

the master of the Shrike do his thing in it.  Freaking breathtaking.  

The more you know, the more breathtaking it was.



  I would note that the Hoover roll  was described as an initial pitch 

to between 20 and 45 degrees and that Bob actually pitched the Shrike to 

between 60 and 70 degrees (I don't think so but that's what the article 

said).



Great stuff here but it feels like something else should be said here; 

Please don't try any of it.  Don't try any of it without an aerobatic 

instructor in an appropriate aircraft with 'chutes.



I've had 1 week's intensive aerobatic instruction in gliders.  I'm not 

sure any aerobatic airplane is more difficult to slow roll properly than 

a 2 place Grob glider.  I thoroughly enjoyed the training but have since 

not performed a single aerobatic maneuver in anything since.  Why?  

Respect for the difficulty involved and respect for our sport.  Every 

rule and precaution has been in response to people screwing it up and 

busting themselves up.



The roll techniques described in the article are very informative.  What 

they skip is that too many people experimenting  in too many aerobatic 

and non-aerobatic airplanes dish out of their initial attempts.  Dishing 

out is the opposite of everything you read here and you can break things.



Yes, I probably self taught myself to do a few loops and rolls before I 

got some instruction.  Training taught me that was stupid.



I probably did some cloud flying without a gyro (yes it can be done in 

limited ways).  That's incredibly stupid.  If I did it, I must have been 

very young and dumb.  However, after starting my training for the IR, I 

wouldn't even stretch the FAA criteria for currency.  Fact is, the 

criteria is less than you really need.



Yes, the RVs can generally do an ailron roll with little more than a 

thought.    The RV10 perhaps a bit less so.  But I don't have a clue and 

never will.  And who needs a chute for a little casual acro?



Anyway, please don't read this stuff and decide to go out and try it.  

At least get an experienced acro pilot in the seat next to you.  Please.



<<School marm mode off>>

On 1/31/2013 2:42 PM, Ed Kranz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   This article explains the different types of rolls:



 http://www.iacusn.org/schools/reprints/08aug_rollisa.pdf



 As this article states, what Bob Hoover did in the Shrike Commander 

 was an aileron roll, and he was able to do it at a constant 1G. You've 

 probably seen the video of him pouring tea during the roll. The 

 article also explains that this maneuver begins with a ~20 degree nose 

 up, then roll, which is what the youtube video shows. If he did the 

 manuver correctly he should have been at 1G or less the entire time.



 A barrel role is a combination of a loop and a roll, and at the bottom 

 Release Date: 01/31/13

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:59 pm Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

I had a blast for a couple days in a Pitts at Sean Tucker's Tutima

Academy.  Over two days we spent 4+ hours flying and twice as much in

the classroom.  Both parts were fascinating!  I can't recommend it

enough.  And as Bill said, I really have no inclination to try that

stuff in a non-aerobatic plane.  Having the right equipment just makes

it so much more enjoyable.

Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Great article!  Thanks for that.  I too always thought Hoover was doing a

 barrel roll in the Shrike but the explanation here makes much more sense.

 I kind of feel sorry for those who never got the chance to see the master of

 the Shrike do his thing in it.  Freaking breathtaking.  The more you know,

 the more breathtaking it was.

  I would note that the Hoover roll  was described as an initial pitch to

 between 20 and 45 degrees and that Bob actually pitched the Shrike to

 between 60 and 70 degrees (I don't think so but that's what the article

 said).

 Great stuff here but it feels like something else should be said here;

 Please don't try any of it.  Don't try any of it without an aerobatic

 instructor in an appropriate aircraft with 'chutes.

 I've had 1 week's intensive aerobatic instruction in gliders.  I'm not sure

 any aerobatic airplane is more difficult to slow roll properly than a 2

 place Grob glider.  I thoroughly enjoyed the training but have since not

 performed a single aerobatic maneuver in anything since.  Why?  Respect for

 the difficulty involved and respect for our sport.  Every rule and

 precaution has been in response to people screwing it up and busting

 themselves up.

 The roll techniques described in the article are very informative.  What

 they skip is that too many people experimenting  in too many aerobatic and

 non-aerobatic airplanes dish out of their initial attempts.  Dishing out is

 the opposite of everything you read here and you can break things.

 Yes, I probably self taught myself to do a few loops and rolls before I got

 some instruction.  Training taught me that was stupid.

 I probably did some cloud flying without a gyro (yes it can be done in

 limited ways).  That's incredibly stupid.  If I did it, I must have been

 very young and dumb.  However, after starting my training for the IR, I

 wouldn't even stretch the FAA criteria for currency.  Fact is, the criteria

 is less than you really need.

 Yes, the RVs can generally do an ailron roll with little more than a

 thought.    The RV10 perhaps a bit less so.  But I don't have a clue and

 never will.  And who needs a chute for a little casual acro?

 Anyway, please don't read this stuff and decide to go out and try it.  At

 least get an experienced acro pilot in the seat next to you.  Please.

 <<School marm mode off>>

 On 1/31/2013 2:42 PM, Ed Kranz wrote:

>

> This article explains the different types of rolls:

>

> http://www.iacusn.org/schools/reprints/08aug_rollisa.pdf

>

> As this article states, what Bob Hoover did in the Shrike Commander was an

> aileron roll, and he was able to do it at a constant 1G. You've probably

> seen the video of him pouring tea during the roll. The article also explains

> that this maneuver begins with a ~20 degree nose up, then roll, which is

> what the youtube video shows. If he did the manuver correctly he should have

> been at 1G or less the entire time.

>

> A barrel role is a combination of a loop and a roll, and at the bottom

> Release Date: 01/31/13

robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:47 pm Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

I have had two very talented pilots I respect in aviation suggest to me that bailing out of my RV-8 with a chute is likely more dangerous that doing all you can to right her and fly her all the way down. 



Robin

Do Not Archive



--

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:53 pm Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

I always thought about this flying the Decathlon.  If I messed something up 

in flight I doubt the rear passenger could get out.  Maybe they could try to 

claw out the fabric??





---

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:05 pm Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

Pretty strong position!  Why do they feel that way?  How many airplanes 

have they jumped from???

Linn



On 2/1/2013 7:43 PM, Robin Marks wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have had two very talented pilots I respect in aviation suggest to me that bailing out of my RV-8 with a chute is likely more dangerous that doing all you can to right her and fly her all the way down.



 Robin

 Do Not Archive

robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:16 pm Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

I don't wish to defend the position but when these two aviators speak, I listen. 

I think the feelings is that a tandem slider canopy plane out of control and likely accelerating towards earth may not be the most pleasant departure experience. Again I am not defending the position but I understand the concern.

I personally hope I have the wherewithal to first fly the plane. 



Robin



--

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:38 am Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

Why might someone feel that way?  An anecdote....

Sailplane racing back in the 80s, I was up with 50 other pilots 

positioning for a start.  We all wear chutes due to the risk of mid-air 

collisions between the tightly packed sailplanes.  Then it happened, two 

pilots reported "Mid-Air" over the radio.

Both aircraft apparently remained flying as the pilots assessed their 

situations and reported on the radio.  The other 48 of us were generally 

within a few miles of the mid-air.  I know that yours truely never saw 

the gliders nor what happened next, even though I was within a mile or 

so of the incident.

Pilot 1 said he was bailing out because he felt the ship might become 

unflyable due to damage.  He stated his position, checked for traffic 

and bailed.  I, along with 48 others scanned the sky above for falling 

debris and bodies but like so many didn't see a thing.

Pilot 2 said he had significant damage to his wing along with other 

possible damage.  Another pilot flew around him and reported what he 

saw.  Pilot 2 decided to  try and land it which he did some minutes 

later at the airport.

After it was reported that both pilots were on the ground and unharmed, 

we went and raced for a couple of hours.  After I got back and handed in 

my race card & pics, like everyone else I went to look at both ships and 

was a bit surprised at what I saw.

Pilot 1's ship  appeared to be quite flyable.  Most of us onlookers 

agreed that, seeing the damage we saw and hearing what the pilot 

experienced, we would have stayed with the plane. Interestingly, Pilot 1 

reported that after bailing out of his ship, he watched the unmanned 

glider do some sort of falling leaf thing down to the ground and that it 

'landed' in the same field he landed on.  Even after considering the 

slight damage incurred on 'crashing', the sailplane appeared to be flyable.

Pilot 2's ship was more heavily damaged including control system 

damage.  Most of us agreed that we would have jumped given what we saw 

after the landing.

Pilot 2 had never jumped before.  Pilot 1 was a sport jumper and had 

over 100 jumps logged.

I guess they both did what they felt most comfortable with doing given 

their past experience.

On 2/1/2013 8:04 PM, Linn wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Pretty strong position!  Why do they feel that way?  How many 

 airplanes have they jumped from???

 Linn

 On 2/1/2013 7:43 PM, Robin Marks wrote:

> 

>

> I have had two very talented pilots I respect in aviation suggest to 

> me that bailing out of my RV-8 with a chute is likely more dangerous 

> that doing all you can to right her and fly her all the way down.

>

> Robin

> Do Not Archive

robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:50 am Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

Bill,

In no way do I intend to be argumentative as I respect your experience and abilities but the scenario in my head of having to bail out of an RV-8 when a maneuver has gone horribly wrong to the point that the pilot can no longer right the plane sounds more nose down, Vne intense to me with major danger just releasing the heavy canopy still tied to the side rails into the 200+ Jetstream and trying to extract oneself with a PAX as the tail feathers partition you neatly into even portions. But maybe it's just my wild imagination. I also can't envision an RV-8 free falling from any distance and still be considered flyable or even salvageable like the sailplane. So maybe these are birds of a different feather.

My comments are not intended to be used as an excuse for acro w/o a parachute. Just that my primary goal is to fly the plane and that jumping has its own risks. I recall Chris J of the -10 list who was an experienced base & plane jumper warning of the profound risks of your first jump being an emergency. Training, training, training. I personally have jumped out of a plane twice. I am not that interested in doing it a third time. 

On a tangentially related subject at OSH 2 years back I sat in an "Owning & Flying Warbirds" presentation the presenter mentioned that of the last 10 L-39 Ejector Seat pulls there was 1 survivor. I always admired having his & hers ejector seats in the L-39. Now not so much.



Robin  "I have to get outside more" Marks



--

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: Flying an aileron roll in the -10?!

No argument intended one way or the other.  My attitude in an RV8 would 

probably align closely with yours.  Carrying a chute doesn't real change 

that.  I have to admit I only wore one racing because it was a 

requirement.  But it is a way to mitigate certain risks, even if unlikely.



Bill "getting older but not necessarily any smarter" Watson



On 2/2/2013 2:46 PM, Robin Marks wrote:

[quote] 



 Bill,

 In no way do I intend to be argumentative as I respect your experience and abilities but the scenario in my head of having to bail out of an RV-8 when a maneuver has gone horribly wrong to the point that the pilot can no longer right the plane sounds more nose down, Vne intense to me with major danger just releasing the heavy canopy still tied to the side rails into the 200+ Jetstream and trying to extract oneself with a PAX as the tail feathers partition you neatly into even portions. But maybe it's just my wild imagination. I also can't envision an RV-8 free falling from any distance and still be considered flyable or even salvageable like the sailplane. So maybe these are birds of a different feather.

 My comments are not intended to be used as an excuse for acro w/o a parachute. Just that my primary goal is to fly the plane and that jumping has its own risks. I recall Chris J of the -10 list who was an experienced base & plane jumper warning of the profound risks of your first jump being an emergency. Training, training, training. I personally have jumped out of a plane twice. I am not that interested in doing it a third time.

 On a tangentially related subject at OSH 2 years back I sat in an "Owning & Flying Warbirds" presentation the presenter mentioned that of the last 10 L-39 Ejector Seat pulls there was 1 survivor. I always admired having his & hers ejector seats in the L-39. Now not so much.



 Robin  "I have to get outside more" Marks



 --

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum