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jbr79r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: lithum-ion batteries

What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batteries?  I can get a Lithiun-ion battery  with greater Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more than 1/2 the weight.  Any comments?



 

James Robinson

Glasair lll  N79R

Spanish Fork UT  U77

        From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent:  Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM

 Subject: Re: Ground plane diameter

  

 

 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>



At 11:48 AM 2/28/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Then would be the recommendation for a more modern design that is all carbon fiber?  The carbon is conductive, but absorbs radiation instead of reflecting it from what I understand.  Go with a foil circle or strips of the appropriate diameter on the outside of the carbon, but under the paint?


	


  That's a whole other can of worms. The carbon fiber

  is, as you've described, pretty lossy stuff. Yeah, it

  is conductive but much of electrical energy flowing

  through a carbon matrix is converted to heat.



  Trying to create idealized ground planes over the

  carbon and under the paint is exceedingly expensive

  and problematic for  affecting structural integrity

  of the shell.



  At HBC, non-resonant ground planes were bonded to the

  inside surface of the fuselage shell. Relatively

  inexpensive and the flight test results deemed them

  adequate to the task.



  Bent also available via the Web nbsp;                 -Matt Dralle,============



 

 

  

 [quote][b]

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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:59 pm Post subject: lithum-ion batteries

James,



My experience was mediocre at best.  The battery did weigh 3 lbs vs 14.5 lbs for the PC680 and it was only about 1/2 the size of the PC680.  The lithium battery cranked my 914 well enough.  No issues there.  But when I tried to run the panel off the battery to see how long it would go, it only lasted about 15 minutes before the charge went below 11 volts.  No real amp-hour power.  I have since reverted back to my PC680.  It might be OK if all you need is starting power and wouldn't be worried about keeping the electrons rolling should you lose your alternator.  But I don't think it's the thing you want with an electrically dependent aircraft or an aircraft flying serious IFR.

Just my 2¢ and worth every bit of it.

 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



 

 

On Mar 1, 2013, at 7:17 PM, James Robinson <jbr79r(at)yahoo.com (jbr79r(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batteries?  I can get a Lithiun-ion battery  with greater Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more than 1/2 the weight.  Any comments?



 

James Robinson

Glasair lll  N79R

Spanish Fork UT  U77





 [quote][b]

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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:57 am Post subject: lithum-ion batteries

 	  Quote: 	
		     



   What    is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batteries?  I can get a    Lithiun-ion battery  with greater Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save    more than 1/2 the weight.  Any comments?

   

    

    

    	  Quote: 	
		       My opinion is:  If you are willing to take      the chance of burning up your aircraft, then go for it.  I personally      feel that the saving in weight does not justify the chance of a catastrophic      thermal runaway internal to the Lithium Ion battery.  Perhaps as the      technology of these batteries matures I will change my  thinking.

      

     Roger

	
	
  

I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter.SPAMfighter has removed 324 of my spam emails to date.Do you have a slow PC? Try a free scan!     [quote][b]

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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:13 am Post subject: lithum-ion batteries

Roger,



The LiFePo batteries don't have the fire problem of the LiPo battery.



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



 

 

On Mar 2, 2013, at 10:55 AM, "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net)> wrote:

 

[quote]



What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batteries?  I can get a Lithiun-ion battery  with greater Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more than 1/2 the weight.  Any comments?



 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  My opinion is:  If you are willing to take the chance of burning up your aircraft, then go for it.  I personally feel that the saving in weight does not justify the chance of a catastrophic thermal runaway internal to the Lithium Ion battery.  Perhaps as the technology of these batteries matures I will change my thinking.

 

Roger

	
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skywagon

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 184

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:37 pm Post subject: lithum-ion batteries

James,

  

 There are several chemical versions of these batteries and  they tend to all get lumped and described as "LiPo" batteries.  So, one has  to know the chemistry details of the so called LiPo battery in question and what  it is really made of.

  

 The straight LiPo has incredible energy storage but, comes  with a delicate nature.  Kind of like a super model...!!

  

 Charging these batteries takes a specialized charging  system usually, as individual cells can be finicky and each should be monitored  and charged in a "Balanced" method.

  

 The battery is sensitive to temps. and not nearly as  robust as say NiCad when hot and cold is involved.

  

  They can also be finicky about the max. storage voltage  vs. the used everyday max charge voltage.



  

 It has the ability to pump out enormous amperage when  required... e.g. engine starter motor.  

 However, that kind of action has to carefully monitored  because under heavy amperage loads they heat up.  And, recall, heat at a  certain level makes a LiPo battery or an individual cell very  unhappy.

  

 And, as we are all aware, they also have some mystery  internal chemical conditions that make them go off with uncertain madness...i.e.  the super model comparison...  Some of this mystery is still being  unraveled..i.e. the Boeing 787 problems.

  

 If it were my choice, today, I probably would not opt for  LiPo battery source in my expensive bird that only you support and not the world  of taxpayers.

  

 This offered with the normal 2-cent return on  advice.

 Hopefully, this topic with bring a real LiPo expert to the  discussion so we can learn the real facts of these batteries.  I know that  we would not be able to run laptop computers, cell phones, and train load of  other high tech gear with out the LiPo form of energy storage.

 David

  

   

  

  

 [quote]   ---

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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:15 pm Post subject: lithum-ion batteries

Sorry,           intended to send this to James               only.

                 

                 do not archive

                       	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 03/02/2013 01:28 PM, rayj wrote:

     

     [quote]              James,

           

           I attached a report that was posted to the             list a while ago.  My personal opinion is that               Li battery technology is not ready for use in aircraft.  Check the archives for                   more info and opinions.

                   

                   Hope this is useful.

                           	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
         On 03/01/2013 07:17 PM, James Robinson wrote:

       

        	  Quote: 	
		                      What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion               batteries?  I can get a Lithiun-ion battery  with greater               Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more than 1/2 the               weight.  Any comments?

            

           James Robinson

             Glasair lll N79R

             Spanish Fork UT U77

           

           

                                                            From:                   "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)

                   To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)                   

                   Sent:                   Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM

                   Subject:                   Re: Ground plane diameter

                  

               

               --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.               Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

               

               At 11:48 AM 2/28/2013, you wrote:

               > Then would be the recommendation for a more modern               design that is all carbon fiber?  The carbon is               conductive, but absorbs radiation instead of reflecting it               from what I understand.  Go with a foil circle or strips               of the appropriate diameter on the outside of the carbon,               but under the paint?

               

                 That's a whole other can of worms. The carbon fiber

                 is, as you've described, pretty lossy stuff. Yeah, it

                 is conductive but much of electrical energy flowing

                 through a carbon matrix is converted to heat.

               

                 Trying to create idealized ground planes over the

                 carbon and under the paint is exceedingly expensive

                 and problematic for affecting structural integrity

                 of the shell.

               

                 At HBC, non-resonant ground planes were bonded to the

                 inside surface of the fuselage shell. Relatively

                 inexpensive and the flight test results deemed them

                 adequate to the task.

               

               

               

                 Bent also available via the Web nbsp;                               -Matt Dralle,============

               

               

               

               

               

             

           

         

          	  Quote: 	
		  

	
       	
       

     [b]

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jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:08 pm Post subject: lithum-ion batteries

For what it is worth I work with Li-ion batteries for a living. No question they are lighter and will hold more energy and are able to deliver it faster than other battery technologies.

Problem is that you need to control them very well both in charge and discharge. Failure can be rather interesting .... Easy in a car .. You just pull over and deal with the "issue".  Not so easy when you at 5000ft.   

For the weight saving in question. Go to the gym an loose a few pounds... You live longer and do not have to worry about your battery pack. I will not be fitting them in my RV ... And I can get them for free ... 



All the best



Jan

On Mar 3, 2013, at 3:28, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote]            James,

         

         I attached a report that was posted to the list           a while ago.  My personal opinion is that Li             battery technology is             not ready for use in aircraft.  Check the archives for more info and opinions.

                 

                 Hope this is useful.

                       	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 03/01/2013 07:17 PM, James Robinson wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                  What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion             batteries?  I can get a Lithiun-ion battery  with greater             Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more than 1/2 the             weight.  Any comments?

          

         James Robinson

           Glasair lll N79R

           Spanish Fork UT U77

         

         

                                                    From:                 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"                 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)

                 To:                 aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com) 

                 Sent:                 Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM

                 Subject:                 Re: Ground plane diameter

                

             

             --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.             Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

             

             At 11:48 AM 2/28/2013, you wrote:

             > Then would be the recommendation for a more modern             design that is all carbon fiber?  The carbon is conductive,             but absorbs radiation instead of reflecting it from what I             understand.  Go with a foil circle or strips of the             appropriate diameter on the outside of the carbon, but under             the paint?

             

               That's a whole other can of worms. The carbon fiber

               is, as you've described, pretty lossy stuff. Yeah, it

               is conductive but much of electrical energy flowing

               through a carbon matrix is converted to heat.

             

               Trying to create idealized ground planes over the

               carbon and under the paint is exceedingly expensive

               and problematic for affecting structural integrity

               of the shell.

             

               At HBC, non-resonant ground planes were bonded to the

               inside surface of the fuselage shell. Relatively

               inexpensive and the flight test results deemed them

               adequate to the task.

             

             

             

               Bent also available via the Web             nbsp;                 -Matt Dralle,============

             

             

             

             

             

           

         

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     	
     

     

<RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf>

[b]

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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jbr79r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:45 pm Post subject: lithum-ion batteries

Thanks everyone.  I will stick with the batteries I have.

 

James Robinson

Glasair lll  N79R

Spanish Fork UT  U77

        From: Jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>

 To: "<aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 11:06 PM

 Subject: Re: Re: lithum-ion   batteries

  

 

  For what it is worth I work with Li-ion batteries for a living. No question they are lighter and will hold more energy and are able to deliver it faster than other battery technologies.

Problem is that you need to control them very well both in charge and discharge. Failure can be rather interesting .... Easy in a car .. You just pull over and deal with the "issue".  Not so easy when you at 5000ft.   

For the weight saving in question. Go to the gym an loose a few pounds... You live longer and do not have to worry about your battery pack. I will not be fitting them in my RV ... And I can get them for free ... 



All the best



Jan

On Mar 3, 2013, at 3:28, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote]             James,

         

         I attached a report that was posted to the list           a while ago.  My personal opinion is that Li             battery technology is             not ready for use in aircraft.  Check the archives for more info and opinions.

                 

                 Hope this is useful.

                       	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.


"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 03/01/2013 07:17 PM, James Robinson wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                  What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion             batteries?  I can get a Lithiun-ion battery  with greater             Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more than 1/2 the             weight.  Any comments?

          

         James Robinson

           Glasair lll N79R

           Spanish Fork UT U77

         

         

                                                    From:                 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"                 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)

                 To:                 aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com) 

                 Sent:                 Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM

                 Subject:                 Re: Ground plane diameter

                

             

             --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.             Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

             

             At 11:48 AM 2/28/2013, you wrote:

             > Then would be the recommendation for a more modern             design that is all carbon fiber?  The carbon is conductive,             but absorbs radiation instead of reflecting it from what I             understand.  Go with a foil circle or strips of the             appropriate diameter on the outside of the carbon, but under             the paint?

             

               That's a whole other can of worms. The carbon fiber

               is, as you've described, pretty lossy stuff. Yeah, it

               is conductive but much of electrical energy flowing

               through a carbon matrix is converted to heat.

             

               Trying to create idealized ground planes over the

               carbon and under the paint is exceedingly expensive

               and problematic for affecting structural integrity

               of the shell.

             

               At HBC, non-resonant ground planes were bonded to the

               inside surface of the fuselage shell. Relatively

               inexpensive and the flight test results deemed them

               adequate to the task.

             

             

             

               Bent also available via the Web             nbsp;                 -Matt Dralle,============

             

             

             

             

             

           

         

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  



	
     	
     

     

<RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf>

[b]

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:16 am Post subject: lithum-ion batteries

Best advice I have seen in a long time!  Thanks!

Bob Reed

Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 3, 2013, at 12:06 AM, Jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK (jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK)> wrote:

[quote] For what it is worth I work with Li-ion batteries for a living. No question they are lighter and will hold more energy and are able to deliver it faster than other battery technologies.

Problem is that you need to control them very well both in charge and discharge. Failure can be rather interesting .... Easy in a car .. You just pull over and deal with the "issue".  Not so easy when you at 5000ft.   

For the weight saving in question. Go to the gym an loose a few pounds... You live longer and do not have to worry about your battery pack. I will not be fitting them in my RV ... And I can get them for free ... 



All the best



Jan

On Mar 3, 2013, at 3:28, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		              James,

         

         I attached a report that was posted to the list           a while ago.  My personal opinion is that Li             battery technology is             not ready for use in aircraft.  Check the archives for more info and opinions.

                 

                 Hope this is useful.

                       	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 03/01/2013 07:17 PM, James Robinson wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                  What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion             batteries?  I can get a Lithiun-ion battery  with greater             Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more than 1/2 the             weight.  Any comments?

          

         James Robinson

           Glasair lll N79R

           Spanish Fork UT U77

         

         

                                                    From:                 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"                 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)

                 To:                 aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com) 

                 Sent:                 Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM

                 Subject:                 Re: Ground plane diameter

                

             

             --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.             Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

             

             At 11:48 AM 2/28/2013, you wrote:

             > Then would be the recommendation for a more modern             design that is all carbon fiber?  The carbon is conductive,             but absorbs radiation instead of reflecting it from what I             understand.  Go with a foil circle or strips of the             appropriate diameter on the outside of the carbon, but under             the paint?

             

               That's a whole other can of worms. The carbon fiber

               is, as you've described, pretty lossy stuff. Yeah, it

               is conductive but much of electrical energy flowing

               through a carbon matrix is converted to heat.

             

               Trying to create idealized ground planes over the

               carbon and under the paint is exceedingly expensive

               and problematic for affecting structural integrity

               of the shell.

             

               At HBC, non-resonant ground planes were bonded to the

               inside surface of the fuselage shell. Relatively

               inexpensive and the flight test results deemed them

               adequate to the task.

             

             

             

               Bent also available via the Web             nbsp;                 -Matt Dralle,============

             

             

             

             

             

           

         

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     	
     

     

<RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf>





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