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ADI on android

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graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:23 pm Post subject: ADI on android

Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a attitude good app on a similar tablet or phone.

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:14 pm Post subject: ADI on android

Hi Graeme,



A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your instrument panel and away you go.

Karl



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: ADI on android

 From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk

 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>

 

 Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a attitude good app on a similar tablet or phone.

 

 --------

 Graeme Bird

 G-UMPY

 Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W

 Newby: 75 hours 18 months 

 g(at)gdbmk.co.uk

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=====================

 _====

 

 

 


	




 		 	   		  

  [quote][b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:28 pm Post subject: ADI on android

Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so on the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the wrong thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid state gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not corrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And that makes them pretty useless. 

 

 Frans 



Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		      Hi Graeme,

A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your instrument panel and away you go.



Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: ADI on android> From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>> > Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a attitude good a    pp on a similar tablet or phone.> > --------> Graeme Bird> G-UMPY> Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W> Newby: 75 hours 18 months > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954> > > > > > > >=====================> _====> > > 


	


            

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	




 -- 

 Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.  [quote][b]

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:50 pm Post subject: ADI on android

I agree fully with Frans. For a real horizon which will remain valid during constant rate turns etc. I would suggest Levil Technology's AHRS-Gmini  with air data (which I have tested satisfactorily over about 60 hours), or other AHRS units now on the market which integrate magnetometers and air data to augment and cross check their gyro and accel parameters. Add a tablet wirelessly and one has a pretty good back-up six pack. Add software like Xavion (from the creator of x-plane), and the capabilities for emergencies situations quickly grow.

Fwiw,

Cheers

Pete

A239



On Oct 6, 2013, at 6:27 PM, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)> wrote:

[quote]Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so on the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the wrong thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid state gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not corrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And that makes them pretty useless. 

 

 Frans 



Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		      

Hi Graeme,



A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your instrument panel and away you go.

Karl



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: ADI on android

 From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)

 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>

 

 Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a attitude good a    pp on a similar tablet or phone.

 

 --------

 Graeme Bird

 G-UMPY

 Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W

 Newby: 75 hours 18 months 

 g(at)gdbmk.co.uk

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=====================

 _====

 

 

 


	




            

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	




 -- 

 Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.   	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:17 pm Post subject: ADI on android

While I agree with you that most of these devices are unsuitable for inflight use, the reason for that lies is the product design, not the technology.  Solid state technology certainly can deliver accurate signals to fly in IMC if they are designed and tested for that purpose. The ipad, iphone etc.. were designed for an entirely different purpose, so we should not blame the technology for their lack of performance in an airplane.

I remember being told the same thing about GPS back in 1997. The old ADF was considered far more flight worthy than the GPS. 

On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)> wrote:

[quote]  Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so on the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the wrong thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid state gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not corrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And that makes them pretty useless. 

 Frans 

Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	

Hi Graeme,

A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your instrument panel and away you go.

Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: ADI on android

 From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)

  > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700

 	  Quote: 	
		   To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>

  > 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a attitude good a    pp on a similar tablet or phone.

 --------

 Graeme Bird

 G-UMPY

 Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W

 Newby: 75 hours 18 months 

 g(at)gdbmk.co.uk

  > 

 	  Quote: 	

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954

  > 

 	  Quote: 	

=====================

 _====

   	  Quote: 	

 -- 

 Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.   	  Quote: 	

arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

[b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:31 pm Post subject: ADI on android

Frans,

You are probably right, but some manufacturers are marketing pure electronic AI's and DI's.

I think MGL is one, and RC ALLEN have a certified one for a few grand. I don't see any mention of GPS coupling. So what makes one a joke and another that works ? I don't like any of the EFIS units, but am very interested in replacing my vacuum gyros with same size electronic gadgets.

Karl

From: asarangan(at)gmail.com

Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:16:24 -0400

Subject: Re: ADI on android

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

While I agree with you that most of these devices are unsuitable for inflight use, the reason for that lies is the product design, not the technology.  Solid state technology certainly can deliver accurate signals to fly in IMC if they are designed and tested for that purpose. The ipad, iphone etc.. were designed for an entirely different purpose, so we should not blame the technology for their lack of performance in an airplane.

I remember being told the same thing about GPS back in 1997. The old ADF was considered far more flight worthy than the GPS. 

On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)> wrote:

[quote]  Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so on the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the wrong thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid state gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not corrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And that makes them pretty useless. 

 Frans 

Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	

Hi Graeme,

A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your instrument panel and away you go.

Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: ADI on android

 From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)

  > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700

 	  Quote: 	
		   To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>

  > 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a attitude good a    pp on a similar tablet or phone.

 --------

 Graeme Bird

 G-UMPY

 Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W

 Newby: 75 hours 18 months 

 g(at)gdbmk.co.uk

  > 

 	  Quote: 	

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954

  > 

 	  Quote: 	

=====================

 _====

   	  Quote: 	

 -- 

 Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.   	  Quote: 	

arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===========

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===========

http://forums.matronics.com

===========

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===========

[b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:07 pm Post subject: ADI on android

If they have no GPS coupling they probably self correct by assuming that you are flying straight and level most of the time and average the input. Which may seem the correct thing to do but in real IMC it may be possible that you very slowly divert into a bad attitude and the AI adapts to it so it doesn't show you that things are not going so good. 

 Some of the Android and iPad implementations are written by non-pilots and are essentially a bubble level bar but with a AI picture on it. 

 Anyway I would surely investigate how the AI corrects for the drift. If they claim the unit has zero drift they are lying. 

 

 Frans 



Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		      Frans,

You are probably right, but some manufacturers are marketing pure electronic AI's and DI's.

I think MGL is one, and RC ALLEN have a certified one for a few grand. I don't see any mention of GPS coupling. So what makes one a joke and another that works ? I don't like any of the EFIS units, but am very interested in replacing my vacuum gyros with same size electronic gadgets.



Karl



From: asarangan(at)gmail.comDate: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:16:24 -0400Subject: Re: ADI on androidTo: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

While I agree with you that most of these devices are unsuitable for inflight use, the reason for that lies is the product design, not the technology.  Solid state technology certainly can deliver accurate signals to fly in IMC if they are des    igned and tested for that purpose. The ipad, iphone etc.. were designed for an entirely different purpose, so we should not blame the technology for their lack of performance in an airplane.

   

I remember being told the same thing about GPS back in 1997. The old ADF was considered far more flight worthy than the GPS. 

 

 

 

 



  On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		    Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so on the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the wrong thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid state gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not corrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And that makes them pretty useless.     Frans Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		        Hi Graeme,

A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your instrument panel and away you go.

  

Karl



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: ADI on android> From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)  > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>  > 

 Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a attitude good a    pp on a similar tablet or phone.> > --------> Graeme Bird> G-UMPY> Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W> Newby: 75 hours 18 months > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk  > > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954  > > > > > > > >=====================> _====> > > 


	




            

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	


 --  Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.   	  Quote: 	
		  



arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




	




   	  Quote: 	
		  



===========

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===========

http://forums.matronics.com

===========

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===========





	
	




 -- 

 Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.  [quote][b]

richard collings

Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 73
Location: warwickshire england

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:44 am Post subject: ADI on android

Hi graeme

I already have Skydemond and use their mobile device in the Europa. I am 

considering replacing my "very bashed about Nokia" phone but have been put 

off by all the functions now available. Can you explain to me why I would 

need the equivalent of blind flying kit to use the phone . I won't boor you 

with my suggestions but as you and others, who have replied seemed well 

versed, I am eager to learn.

Regards Richard



--

kees de bussy

Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 18
Location: the netherlands

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:39 am Post subject: Re: ADI on android

I agree with Frans that smart phones and tablet, using their internal sensors, are a nogo for flying in IMC circumstances. However I disagree that the technology of solid state gyro's is by definition not reliable or not suitable for flying. On the contrary, a lot of AHRS systems rely on it, in commercial as well in military aircraft/UAV's and since a decade or so in small aircraft as well. A typical AHRS system, as far as I am aware, relies on 3 gyro's and 3 accelerometers and often 3 magnetometers as well. One of each at each axis to create an inertial platform. These systems can be connected to a  gps, but not necessarily. Solid state gyro's have a lot of advantages over conventional (spinning) gyro's.  They are very reliable in high vibration, high g-load circumstances unlike conventional gyro's. AHRS systems can be very small light weight packages nowadays, while conventional gyro's are pretty bulky and heavy. I know aviation is pretty conservative, and that is good. The point is do not not condemn modern technology as being not suitable while it might be (or should I say will be) not only the near future but even already pretty common today.  



Kees de Bussy

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:36 am Post subject: Re: ADI on android

umm I wouldn't be so hasty to rubbish it. Technology used to be driven my military applications; now the leading edge is driven by commodity consumer products. No company can afford to develop silicon sensors for a few tens of choppers but they can sell a few million for a WI etc. The sensitivity/quality mostly comes free in these parts. The nexus has a 50 channel GPS in it (I read somewhere). It wouldn't surprise me if a tablet wasn't at least as good as many uncertified EFIS systems.

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: ADI on android

Well I tried my Nexus7 with the Flight Instruments ADI app; it were rubbish!!! as you all predicted.  I found I couldnt get a reference in the air . I suppose you would have to do it on the ground before the flight.

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