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airmanv2
Joined: 01 Dec 2013
Posts: 49
Location: France - Normandy
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 Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:29 pm Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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Hello,
What are the indicated airspeeds to be use with a CJ6A for aerobatic flights?
What could be a program to present it in a show?
Thank you in advance for your help.
Bruno
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Dawg
Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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Yikes!
On Feb 14, 2014, at 15:29, "airmanv2" <bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com> wrote:
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:39 pm Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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So, I'd recommend you get acro instruction from someone qualified in the
CJ6A. Also, building the program you want to use is extremely important
part of the process to get your acro card. Through that process you'll
figure out the energy states, airspeeds, altitudes, etc. Again, I recommend
you seek out a qualified acro instructor with airshow experience.
Bear
--
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McFly
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:47 pm Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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Also suggest you join ICAS and get an ACE if you want to do displays if you are in the USA.
Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:39 PM, "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)>
So, I'd recommend you get acro instruction from someone qualified in the
CJ6A. Also, building the program you want to use is extremely important
part of the process to get your acro card. Through that process you'll
figure out the energy states, airspeeds, altitudes, etc. Again, I recommend
you seek out a qualified acro instructor with airshow experience.
Bear
--
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_________________
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A - N134FA
KDVT Hangar 33-13
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.flyams.com |
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:37 am Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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Bruno,
I agree with Todd and DaBear (aka Dead Bear). Getting some dual with someone who's done acro in the CJ is a very smart idea. However IF you already have a lot of acro time in other aircraft, go up high and go at it. The CJ can do just about any acrobatic maneuver you want to try. Tail slides are NOT recommend - the tail structure really isn't up it and cracks have been found in the front spar of the horizontal stabilizer. And for God sake stay within the G limits. For normal stuff, I've never been over 4gs.
In 2008 at the 50th anniversary celebration of the CJ at OSH, "Gabby" Lang did an beautiful acrobatic routine during the Warbird part of the show (first time that was ever done). You still might find it on YouTube. It included a square loop, 8 point rolls, and a snap roll at the top of a loop. This was in a standard powered CJ with the 285hp HS-6A engine. You'll find the CJ is not a "snappy" performer. "Majestic" might be the best word and one I often heard in the crowds. So she's uses a lot of altitude. She will do flat spins that require positive control inputs to recover but are not exotic. She does not like high speed snaps rolls (as a matter of fact I haven't been able to get her to do one). I have done them at 70 kts or so. Spin entries are normal HOWEVER if you do a cross control stall with the gear and flaps down, be prepared for a vicious snap and lot of altitude loss. The airplane gives you plenty of warning approaching stalls. On hammer heads, you'll find it very hard or not possible to do one to the left. She'll do them readily to the right.
Once again I recommend that you ride with someone who's done acro in a CJ particularly if you new to acrobatic. I speak from experience. Year ago I had built a Pitts Special. One evening, a young man called me for some advice on the Pitts he was building. In the discussion we were also talking about the different maneuvers. One was the hammer head turn. The very next day, he tried this maneuver - at low altitude - in a Piper Tri-Pacer - with a student. It went up - but it came down right into the airport's gas pumps. He had some acrobatic time.
From your post we can't tell if you're high time pilot with lots of acro time or you're new and want to get into airshows flying. If the latter, the more experience you get at higher altitude the longer you will live at the lower altitudes. My instructor and boss at one time was Mary T Gaffaney. In 72 she was the Women's World Acrobatic Champion, first American to ever win it. (At 90 she is in a nurseing home now with dementia). For every 5 or 10 minute airshow routine she did, she would put in AT LEAST 5 to 6 hours of practice often at higher altitudes than she performed. There is just no substitute for experience that comes with practice.
Gosh this went longer than I expected. I got to go work on my CJ!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/14/2014 11:47:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, todd(at)fastaircraft.com writes:
| Quote: | Also suggest you join ICAS and get an ACE if you want to do displays if you are in the USA.
Todd McCutchan T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:39 PM, "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)>
So, I'd recommend you get acro instruction from someone qualified in the
CJ6A. Also, building the program you want to use is extremely important
part of the process to get your acro card. Through that process you'll
figure out the energy states, airspeeds, altitudes, etc. Again, I recommend
you seek out a qualified acro instructor with airshow experience.
Bear
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:06 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A
On Feb 14, 2014, at 15:29, "airmanv2" <bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com (bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "airmanv2"
--> <bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com (bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com)>
Hello,
What are the indicated airspeeds to be use with a CJ6A for aerobatic
|
flights?
[/b]
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[quote][b]
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jland(at)popeandland.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:10 am Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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Pappy
Here’s a link to one of Gabby’s early practice sessions when he was sorting out some of the maneuvers for the Oshkosh show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt16_i_IcOQ
I haven’t found the actual show footage yet.
At this point Alex “Gabby” Land had already flown in the Advanced World Aerobatic Championships in a Sukhoi so even at only 18 he had an unbelievable amount of aerobatic experience.
It is our belief that no one should attempt any aerobatics in any type of plane without getting proper instruction. On your own, too many things can go wrong and at best on your own you may learn improper techniques that can kill you when you fly lower. We all know enough dead guys.
New CJ pilots should go up with an instructor, screw up lots and lots of maneuvers and see what it takes to recover and how much altitude you can loose in a hurry before you figure out what went wrong. The CJ is a really fun “gentleman’s aerobatics” plane and very easy to fly. It’s underpowered for acro and has no rudder authority with a structurally weak tail.
Get some instruction and learn to fly it well and you’ll love it and not bend it.
Jay Land
On 2/15/14 9:36 AM, "[url=cjpilot710(at)aol.com]cjpilot710(at)aol.com[/url]" <[url=cjpilot710(at)aol.com]cjpilot710(at)aol.com[/url]> wrote:
[quote]Bruno,
I agree with Todd and DaBear (aka Dead Bear). Getting some dual with someone who's done acro in the CJ is a very smart idea. However IF you already have a lot of acro time in other aircraft, go up high and go at it. The CJ can do just about any acrobatic maneuver you want to try. Tail slides are NOT recommend - the tail structure really isn't up it and cracks have been found in the front spar of the horizontal stabilizer. And for God sake stay within the G limits. For normal stuff, I've never been over 4gs.
In 2008 at the 50th anniversary celebration of the CJ at OSH, "Gabby" Lang did an beautiful acrobatic routine during the Warbird part of the show (first time that was ever done). You still might find it on YouTube. It included a square loop, 8 point rolls, and a snap roll at the top of a loop. This was in a standard powered CJ with the 285hp HS-6A engine. You'll find the CJ is not a "snappy" performer. "Majestic" might be the best word and one I often heard in the crowds. So she's uses a lot of altitude. She will do flat spins that require positive control inputs to recover but are not exotic. She does not like high speed snaps rolls (as a matter of fact I haven't been able to get her to do one). I have done them at 70 kts or so. Spin entries are normal HOWEVER if you do a cross control stall with the gear and flaps down, be prepared for a vicious snap and lot of altitude loss. The airplane gives you plenty of warning approaching stalls. On hammer heads, you'll find it very hard or not possible to do one to the left. She'll do them readily to the right.
Once again I recommend that you ride with someone who's done acro in a CJ particularly if you new to acrobatic. I speak from experience. Year ago I had built a Pitts Special. One evening, a young man called me for some advice on the Pitts he was building. In the discussion we were also talking about the different maneuvers. One was the hammer head turn. The very next day, he tried this maneuver - at low altitude - in a Piper Tri-Pacer - with a student. It went up - but it came down right into the airport's gas pumps. He had some acrobatic time.
>From your post we can't tell if you're high time pilot with lots of acro time or you're new and want to get into airshows flying. If the latter, the more experience you get at higher altitude the longer you will live at the lower altitudes. My instructor and boss at one time was Mary T Gaffaney. In 72 she was the Women's World Acrobatic Champion, first American to ever win it. (At 90 she is in a nurseing home now with dementia). For every 5 or 10 minute airshow routine she did, she would put in AT LEAST 5 to 6 hours of practice often at higher altitudes than she performed. There is just no substitute for experience that comes with practice.
Gosh this went longer than I expected. I got to go work on my CJ!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/14/2014 11:47:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [url=todd(at)fastaircraft.com] todd(at)fastaircraft.com[/url] writes:
| Quote: |
Also suggest you join ICAS and get an ACE if you want to do displays if you are in the USA.
Todd McCutchan
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: [url=todd(at)fastaircraft.com]todd(at)fastaircraft.com[/url]
www.fastaircraft.com <http://www.fastaircraft.com/>
On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:39 PM, "DaBear" <[url=dabear(at)damned.org]dabear(at)damned.org[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear" <[url=dabear(at)damned.org]dabear(at)damned.org[/url]>
So, I'd recommend you get acro instruction from someone qualified in the
CJ6A. Also, building the program you want to use is extremely important
part of the process to get your acro card. Through that process you'll
figure out the energy states, airspeeds, altitudes, etc. Again, I recommend
you seek out a qualified acro instructor with airshow experience.
Bear
-----Original Message-----
From: [url=owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:06 PM
To: [url=yak-list(at)matronics.com]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]
Subject: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A
On Feb 14, 2014, at 15:29, "airmanv2" <[url=bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com]bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "airmanv2"
|
| Quote: | --> <[url=bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com]bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com[/url]>
|
| Quote: | What are the indicated airspeeds to be use with a CJ6A for aerobatic
|
flights?
| Quote: | What could be a program to present it in a show?
|
| Quote: | Thank you in advance for your help.
|
| Quote: | Read this topic online here:
|
|
http://forums.matronics.=========================</SPNBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBF="HTTP: www.matronics.com contribution?>http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://forums.matronics.com> =
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:22 am Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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There are videos of Gabby doing the same show at SNF. I have links on my PC but not here. In fact I think Jay sent the link to me a couple years back. JB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
Jay Land <jland(at)popeandland.com> wrote:
Pappy
Here’s a link to one of Gabby’s early practice sessions when he was sorting out some of the maneuvers for the Oshkosh show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt16_i_IcOQ
I haven’t found the actual show footage yet.
At this point Alex “Gabby” Land had already flown in the Advanced World Aerobatic Championships in a Sukhoi so even at only 18 he had an unbelievable amount of aerobatic experience.
It is our belief that no one should attempt any aerobatics in any type of plane without getting proper instruction. On your own, too many things can go wrong and at best on your own you may learn improper techniques that can kill you when you fly lower. We all know enough dead guys.
New CJ pilots should go up with an instructor, screw up lots and lots of maneuvers and see what it takes to recover and how much altitude you can loose in a hurry before you figure out what went wrong. The CJ is a really fun “gentleman’s aerobatics” plane and very easy to fly. It’s underpowered for acro and has no rudder authority with a structurally weak tail.
Get some instruction and learn to fly it well and you’ll love it and not bend it.
Jay Land
On 2/15/14 9:36 AM, "[url=cjpilot710(at)aol.com]cjpilot710(at)aol.com[/url]" <[url=cjpilot710(at)aol.com]cjpilot710(at)aol.com[/url]> wrote:
[quote]Bruno,
I agree with Todd and DaBear (aka Dead Bear). Getting some dual with someone who's done acro in the CJ is a very smart idea. However IF you already have a lot of acro time in other aircraft, go up high and go at it. The CJ can do just about any acrobatic maneuver you want to try. Tail slides are NOT recommend - the tail structure really isn't up it and cracks have been found in the front spar of the horizontal stabilizer. And for God sake stay within the G limits. For normal stuff, I've never been over 4gs.
In 2008 at the 50th anniversary celebration of the CJ at OSH, "Gabby" Lang did an beautiful acrobatic routine during the Warbird part of the show (first time that was ever done). You still might find it on YouTube. It included a square loop, 8 point rolls, and a snap roll at the top of a loop. This was in a standard powered CJ with the 285hp HS-6A engine. You'll find the CJ is not a "snappy" performer. "Majestic" might be the best word and one I often heard in the crowds. So she's uses a lot of altitude. She will do flat spins that require positive control inputs to recover but are not exotic. She does not like high speed snaps rolls (as a matter of fact I haven't been able to get her to do one). I have done them at 70 kts or so. Spin entries are normal HOWEVER if you do a cross control stall with the gear and flaps down, be prepared for a vicious snap and lot of altitude loss. The airplane gives you plenty of warning approaching stalls. On hammer heads, you'll find it very hard or not possible to do one to the left. She'll do them readily to the right.
Once again I recommend that you ride with someone who's done acro in a CJ particularly if you new to acrobatic. I speak from experience. Year ago I had built a Pitts Special. One evening, a young man called me for some advice on the Pitts he was building. In the discussion we were also talking about the different maneuvers. One was the hammer head turn. The very next day, he tried this maneuver - at low altitude - in a Piper Tri-Pacer - with a student. It went up - but it came down right into the airport's gas pumps. He had some acrobatic time.
>From your post we can't tell if you're high time pilot with lots of acro time or you're new and want to get into airshows flying. If the latter, the more experience you get at higher altitude the longer you will live at the lower altitudes. My instructor and boss at one time was Mary T Gaffaney. In 72 she was the Women's World Acrobatic Champion, first American to ever win it. (At 90 she is in a nurseing home now with dementia). For every 5 or 10 minute airshow routine she did, she would put in AT LEAST 5 to 6 hours of practice often at higher altitudes than she performed. There is just no substitute for experience that comes with practice.
Gosh this went longer than I expected. I got to go work on my CJ!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/14/2014 11:47:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [url=todd(at)fastaircraft.com] todd(at)fastaircraft.com[/url] writes:
| Quote: |
Also suggest you join ICAS and get an ACE if you want to do displays if you are in the USA.
Todd McCutchan
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: [url=todd(at)fastaircraft.com]todd(at)fastaircraft.com[/url]
www.fastaircraft.com <http://www.fastaircraft.com/>
On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:39 PM, "DaBear" <[url=dabear(at)damned.org]dabear(at)damned.org[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear" <[url=dabear(at)damned.org]dabear(at)damned.org[/url]>
So, I'd recommend you get acro instruction from someone qualified in the
CJ6A. Also, building the program you want to use is extremely important
part of the process to get your acro card. Through that process you'll
figure out the energy states, airspeeds, altitudes, etc. Again, I recommend
you seek out a qualified acro instructor with airshow experience.
Bear
-----Original Message-----
From: [url=owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:06 PM
To: [url=yak-list(at)matronics.com]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Aerobatic with CJ6A
On Feb 14, 2014, at 15:29, "airmanv2" <[url=bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com]bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "airmanv2"
|
| Quote: | --> <[url=bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com]bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com[/url]>
|
| Quote: | What are the indicated airspeeds to be use with a CJ6A for aerobatic
|
flights?
| Quote: | What could be a program to present it in a show?
|
| Quote: | Thank you in advance for your help.
|
| Quote: | Read this topic online here:
|
|
http://forums.matronics.=========================</SPNBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBF="HTTP: www.matronics.com contribution?>http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://forums.matronics.com> =
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terrycalloway(at)mac.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:01 am Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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Bruno,
I agree with all that has been said for the most part thus far.
The one thing that comes thru loud and clear is the recommendation for a qualified instructor. I recommend Sergei Boriak or Debbie Gary only because these are two of the best instructors I worked with. Another great air show instructor I have not had lessons with, but know and have heard good things about is Greg Koontz. I’m sure there are plenty more and even more opinions.
As far as speeds go, I practice at all speeds. For example the loop in a CJ-6, someone may like an ideal entry air speed of 285 KPH. When I practice, I do one at 285 then 275 then 265 then 255 then 245 and so forth until finally it just cannot happen. Practicing like this gives me a much better understanding of the airplane and when the day comes along I'm out there in front of the crowd and realize I inadvertantly pulled at 230, I know what to expect.
The program you design should always be designed around your own skill level not what you think the crowd is expecting to see. Also, we always found the simplest maneuvers were what impressed the spectator the most. Go figure.
Good luck in your endeavors and by all means put safety first, second, and even third.
Pumper
On Feb 14, 2014, at 4:29 PM, airmanv2 <bruno.blanchard2(at)gmail.com> wrote:
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airmanv2
Joined: 01 Dec 2013
Posts: 49
Location: France - Normandy
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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|
hello guys,
thank you for all your advices . Of course i will not try any thing without a good aerobatic instructor. And this is expected to be dome within the 2 next month.
but, I'm in France, and there is only one CJ6 allowed to fly in France at this time (and since 5 month): mine …. (there are only 5 in Europe , all on the UK registry).
My future Aerobatic instructor ask me : try to find the entrance speed usually used for the usual aerobatic and try to have some advices to make it safe by getting advices from pilots familiars with the type.
the idea is to be prepared to make a soft, safe, and demonstrated show with this only CJ6 flying in France. (not to be prepared as a Champion)
Thanks for help
Bruno
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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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Jay:
Good to see you post on the Forum. I hope Alex is well. He should be out of college by now I think. At one point, you had videos of OSH and other flights on the landAerosports website. I used to look at those videos on occasion.
Best,
Craig
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jland(at)popeandland.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:07 am Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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China invaded our Joomla site and it was so corrupted we couldnt save it. Some videos are up on youtube under Landaerosports. Alex just got his ATP and will be back in Alaska flying 185s, Beavers, and turbine Otters on skiis this summer.
Thanks, Jay
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 16, 2014, at 7:13 AM, "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Jay:
Good to see you post on the Forum. I hope Alex is well. He should be out of college by now I think. At one point, you had videos of OSH and other flights on the landAerosports website. I used to look at those videos on occasion.
Best,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418782#418782
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keithmckinley
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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Besides being somewhat underpowered, I don't believe that a stock CJ with it's big dihedral wing will ever do a flat spin. As a matter-of-fact it does not want to stay in a legitimate spin after 2-3 turns, morphing instead into a nose low spiral. The CJ is a forgiving, docile, aerobatic performer. However, competent instruction, and HOURS of practice on your routine (muscle memory) would be the safest course of action before attempting to perform at a show. I've been in the absolute worst spots in my CJ during practices and a time or two at shows and it has never failed to treat me with respect.
Bon Chance with your performance.
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:11 pm Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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My CJ has a M-14p in it. With a GIB and full fuel, I can put the airplane in a flat spin. I do a normal spin entry, but leave the power on. When you release the back stick pressure, the airplane continues to spin, but more importantly, the stick will not automatically go to neutral. It will stay in your stomach, and requires about 3 lbs of pressure to move it forward. You can also recover by closing the throttle. Now I have not - but have been told that increasing power you can flatten the spin even more and have seen video of a Yak doing just that.
You are correct about the CJ not wanting to spin nor morphing into a nose low spiral. However I have found that when my C/G is at or very near the rear limit the CJ will spin normally. I believe a lot of CJs after leaving China and having those back radios removed, tend to be nose heavy even when ballast is added. That maybe part of the reason and if done solo too.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/16/2014 10:38:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cetopfed(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "keithmckinley" <cetopfed(at)gmail.com>
Besides being somewhat underpowered, I don't believe that a stock CJ with it's big dihedral wing will ever do a flat spin. As a matter-of-fact it does not want to stay in a legitimate spin after 2-3 turns, morphing instead into a nose low spiral. The CJ is a forgiving, docile, aerobatic performer. However, competent instruction, and HOURS of practice on your routine (muscle memory) would be the safest course of action before attempting to perform at a show. I've been in the absolute worst spots in my CJ during practices and a time or two at shows and it has never failed to treat me with respect.
Bon Chance with your performance.
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
X26 Sebastian, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418842#418842
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[quote][b]
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PS
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 84
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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Approximately how much weight is normally added to the tail of the CJ?
Phil
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michaelrorth
Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:33 am Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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With all this talk of spins, you may be interested in this video.
A/C did 26 rotations.
http://diverjency.com/blog/2014/02/16/plane-crash-lands-after-spinnning-26-times-pilot-ok
Michael
From: cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 9:10 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A
My CJ has a M-14p in it. With a GIB and full fuel, I can put the airplane in a flat spin. I do a normal spin entry, but leave the power on. When you release the back stick pressure, the airplane continues to spin, but more importantly, the stick will not automatically go to neutral. It will stay in your stomach, and requires about 3 lbs of pressure to move it forward. You can also recover by closing the throttle. Now I have not - but have been told that increasing power you can flatten the spin even more and have seen video of a Yak doing just that.
You are correct about the CJ not wanting to spin nor morphing into a nose low spiral. However I have found that when my C/G is at or very near the rear limit the CJ will spin normally. I believe a lot of CJs after leaving China and having those back radios removed, tend to be nose heavy even when ballast is added. That maybe part of the reason and if done solo too.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/16/2014 10:38:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cetopfed(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "keithmckinley" <cetopfed(at)gmail.com>
Besides being somewhat underpowered, I don't believe that a stock CJ with it's big dihedral wing will ever do a flat spin. As a matter-of-fact it does not want to stay in a legitimate spin after 2-3 turns, morphing instead into a nose low spiral. The CJ is a forgiving, docile, aerobatic performer. However, competent instruction, and HOURS of practice on your routine (muscle memory) would be the safest course of action before attempting to perform at a show. I've been in the absolute worst spots in my CJ during practices and a time or two at shows and it has never failed to treat me with respect.
Bon Chance with your performance.
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
X26 Sebastian, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418842#418842
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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[quote][b]
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:12 am Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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When I had the HS6 (260hp) engine in the airplane, I set the C/G up the forward limit, with pilot, chute, normal oil, and :30 minutes fuel. If I remember correctly that came to about 33 pounds of lead in the tail. When I put the M-14P in I had to up that to 55 lbs IF my memory is right. I remember pulling 186 pounds of radios and wiring out the CJ when I got it, and right now I'm doing some major rewiring and I'm STILL finding original wiring I don't need.
There are a number of ways to put ballast in the CJ. Basic rule is the further back you mount the ballast - less you have to put in. On my airplane, I removed the tail skid, and fill the tube with molten lead. I than turned it on its side, making a simple mold to fill again with lead, leaving a hole for the tie down rope. The rest of the ballast is in a canvas bag sown to fit in the very last part of the tail cone. The bag is inserted empty, a pre measured amount of lead bird shot is poured in. The bag has a draw sting for closing and takes on the shape of the tail compartment. Every 3 or so years, I vacuum out the bird shot, removed the bag and inspected the compartment. I've never found in damage nor corrosion in the 19 years I've own the airplane. There are a number of way to mount ballast and opinions run wide and deep on the best way to do it. Just make sure you put in the correct amount for where you mount it and that it is secured.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/17/2014 12:40:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, psalter(at)aol.com writes:
[quote][b]
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:48 am Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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When we assembled Buddy Moman's CJ a few years ago, we added approximately 40-50 lbs using two pre-weighed 25 lb bags of bird shot. Buddy was ingenious in creating a bag fabricated to the exact internal dimensions of the tail cone (using poster board templates) with a lid with a hole in it. The bag was fabricated at an upholstery shop using the templates and a 3 dimensional drawing buddy made. The lid folded over the top of the bag and was velcro'd down. Inside the bag was another bag with a pull-tie (as I remember). The hole was for "funneling" the bird shot into the bag. With the airplane on the scales, we added the premeasured and weighed birdshot and calculated the CG right then and there. Once the correct amount of bird shot was in the bag, the inside bag pull-tie was pulled and knotted. Using the bird shot was much easier than using bars of lead and trying to keep them in place.
Hope this helps.
Dennis
From: PS <psalter(at)aol.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 11:40 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A
--> Yak-List message posted by: "PS" <psalter(at)aol.com (psalter(at)aol.com)>
Approximately how much weight is normally added to the tail of the CJ?
Phil
--------
Phil
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418847#gator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Linbsp; - sp; -Matt Dralle, List Adm========
[quote][b]
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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I would encourage everyone who has not PERSONALLY completed a W&B on their CJ to do so. Level, weigh, and calculate their CG. I would bet many would be surprised at where the CG is in relation to the recommendations. I’ve flown the CJ 1400 hours in many places on the CG and can’t get it to flat spin, nor stay in a spin unless I’m aft of 23% MAC. That is very close to the aft CG limit.
I’d also recommend you not put weight in the tail of the CJ. While you have to put more weight bringing it forward, I’d recommend putting it in the radio/baggage area to insure that you are not over stressing the tail nor creating momentum with that weight back there. Many people do put weight back there, it’s just my opinion.
What are people using for forward and aft limits? The recommended CG range of the CJ is somewhat narrow. What I find is that setting up the CJ to fly at the forward limit (with me flying in the front seat) then it is difficult to put someone in the back that weighs more than 220lbs (including chute) without going past rear limit.
I find if you set up the plane to be able to fly with a reasonable sized gib and baggage, when you fly solo, you’ll be forward of the recommended CG. Now it’s been discussed what the negatives are regarding going past forward CG, it is much better to be forward than aft.
All of this is ….My not so humble opinion, your mileage may be different. Void where prohibited. Weight before cooking, Don’t make investment decisions, without seeing your own advisor, etc…..
Bear
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 8:12 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A
When I had the HS6 (260hp) engine in the airplane, I set the C/G up the forward limit, with pilot, chute, normal oil, and :30 minutes fuel. If I remember correctly that came to about 33 pounds of lead in the tail. When I put the M-14P in I had to up that to 55 lbs IF my memory is right. I remember pulling 186 pounds of radios and wiring out the CJ when I got it, and right now I'm doing some major rewiring and I'm STILL finding original wiring I don't need.
There are a number of ways to put ballast in the CJ. Basic rule is the further back you mount the ballast - less you have to put in. On my airplane, I removed the tail skid, and fill the tube with molten lead. I than turned it on its side, making a simple mold to fill again with lead, leaving a hole for the tie down rope. The rest of the ballast is in a canvas bag sown to fit in the very last part of the tail cone. The bag is inserted empty, a pre measured amount of lead bird shot is poured in. The bag has a draw sting for closing and takes on the shape of the tail compartment. Every 3 or so years, I vacuum out the bird shot, removed the bag and inspected the compartment. I've never found in damage nor corrosion in the 19 years I've own the airplane. There are a number of way to mount ballast and opinions run wide and deep on the best way to do it. Just make sure you put in the correct amount for where you mount it and that it is secured.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/17/2014 12:40:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, psalter(at)aol.com (psalter(at)aol.com) writes:
01234567
[quote][b]
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:45 am Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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In 2003 when Bushi Cheng came to OSH, brain Lloyd asked Bushi about over stressing the tail with ballast that far back. Bushi said it didn't matter because the CJ wasn't "big enough" to be effected by that factor. Words to that effect. Brain had used much bigger words of course - something like 'polar angular momentum" which to be honest I personally still don't understand. :-/
And the CJ will do a flat spin (I done them - inadvertently at first). BUT the CG must be at its aft limit. AAMOF it has been reported to me by a really reliable guy, that one of our Russian acro guys demo a inverted flat spin to him. No I have not tried it. To old and to slow.
"Normal disclaimers apply"
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Sent from my iPad from some where on The 3rd rock from the Sun.
On Feb 17, 2014, at th10:00, "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)> wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
I would encourage everyone who has not PERSONALLY completed a W&B on their CJ to do so. Level, weigh, and calculate their CG. I would bet many would be surprised at where the CG is in relation to the recommendations. I’ve flown the CJ 1400 hours in many places on the CG and can’t get it to flat spin, nor stay in a spin unless I’m aft of 23% MAC. That is very close to the aft CG limit.
I’d also recommend you not put weight in the tail of the CJ. While you have to put more weight bringing it forward, I’d recommend putting it in the radio/baggage area to insure that you are not over stressing the tail nor creating momentum with that weight back there. Many people do put weight back there, it’s just my opinion.
What are people using for forward and aft limits? The recommended CG range of the CJ is somewhat narrow. What I find is that setting up the CJ to fly at the forward limit (with me flying in the front seat) then it is difficult to put someone in the back that weighs more than 220lbs (including chute) without going past rear limit.
I find if you set up the plane to be able to fly with a reasonable sized gib and baggage, when you fly solo, you’ll be forward of the recommended CG. Now it’s been discussed what the negatives are regarding going past forward CG, it is much better to be forward than aft.
All of this is ….My not so humble opinion, your mileage may be different. Void where prohibited. Weight before cooking, Don’t make investment decisions, without seeing your own advisor, etc…..
Bear
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 8:12 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A
When I had the HS6 (260hp) engine in the airplane, I set the C/G up the forward limit, with pilot, chute, normal oil, and :30 minutes fuel. If I remember correctly that came to about 33 pounds of lead in the tail. When I put the M-14P in I had to up that to 55 lbs IF my memory is right. I remember pulling 186 pounds of radios and wiring out the CJ when I got it, and right now I'm doing some major rewiring and I'm STILL finding original wiring I don't need.
There are a number of ways to put ballast in the CJ. Basic rule is the further back you mount the ballast - less you have to put in. On my airplane, I removed the tail skid, and fill the tube with molten lead. I than turned it on its side, making a simple mold to fill again with lead, leaving a hole for the tie down rope. The rest of the ballast is in a canvas bag sown to fit in the very last part of the tail cone. The bag is inserted empty, a pre measured amount of lead bird shot is poured in. The bag has a draw sting for closing and takes on the shape of the tail compartment. Every 3 or so years, I vacuum out the bird shot, removed the bag and inspected the compartment. I've never found in damage nor corrosion in the 19 years I've own the airplane. There are a number of way to mount ballast and opinions run wide and deep on the best way to do it. Just make sure you put in the correct amount for where you mount it and that it is secured.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/17/2014 12:40:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, psalter(at)aol.com (psalter(at)aol.com) writes:
01234567
8
[b]
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marcusbates(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:17 pm Post subject: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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YOU CAN ALSO FILL THE TAILSKID WITH MOLTEN LEAD............You will have to repaint it.
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A
When we assembled Buddy Moman's CJ a few years ago, we added approximately 40-50 lbs using two pre-weighed 25 lb bags of bird shot. Buddy was ingenious in creating a bag fabricated to the exact internal dimensions of the tail cone (using poster board templates) with a lid with a hole in it. The bag was fabricated at an upholstery shop using the templates and a 3 dimensional drawing buddy made. The lid folded over the top of the bag and was velcro'd down. Inside the bag was another bag with a pull-tie (as I remember). The hole was for "funneling" the bird shot into the bag. With the airplane on the scales, we added the premeasured and weighed birdshot and calculated the CG right then and there. Once the correct amount of bird shot was in the bag, the inside bag pull-tie was pulled and knotted. Using the bird shot was much easier than using bars of lead and trying to keep them in place.
Hope this helps.
Dennis
From: PS <psalter(at)aol.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A
--> Yak-List message posted by: "PS" <psalter(at)aol.com (psalter(at)aol.com)>
Approximately how much weight is normally added to the tail of the CJ?
Phil
--------
Phil
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418847#gator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Linbsp; - sp; -Matt Dralle, List Adm========
[quote][b]
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