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michaelrorth
Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 65
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 Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 12:32 am Post subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa cr |
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Good post.
Thanks,
Michael
From: Bud Yerly (budyerly(at)msn.com)
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 9:28 PM
To: europa-list (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.
Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.
To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on.
I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident.
My flight test comments are as follows:
We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps.
The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational.
All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off).
The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems.
Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal.
Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall.
Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.
However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.)
Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out.
Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all.
If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy.
Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit.
Regards to all,
Bud
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100
From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Graeme
I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just
under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small,
again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate
templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle
curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down
stall.
Graham
From: graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57
Subject: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point.
Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188
p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======
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target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 5:44 am Post subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa cr |
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Bud
excellent letter. I am most interested in your VG installation. Did you fit to botn wing and tail?
I fitted them to my Long EZ and was delighted with the improvement in low speed handling.
Graham
From: Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com>
To: europa-list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, 12 May 2014, 5:28
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.
Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.
To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on.
I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident.
My flight test comments are as follows:
We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps.
The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational.
All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off).
The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems.
Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal.
Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall.
Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.
However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.)
Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out.
Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all.
If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy.
Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit.
Regards to all,
Bud
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100
From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Graeme
I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just
under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small,
again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate
templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle
curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down
stall.
Graham
From: graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57
Subject: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point.
Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188
p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======
[quote]
===========
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
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max8992
Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa cr |
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Hi Bud,
A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa’s in particular.
The only point in your list which I can’t execute belongs to temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot weather comes…
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly
Envoyé : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29
À : europa-list
Objet : RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.
Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.
To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on.
I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident.
My flight test comments are as follows:
We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps.
The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational.
All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off).
The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems.
Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal.
Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall.
Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.
However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.)
Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out.
Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all.
If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy.
Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit.
Regards to all,
Bud
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100
From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Graeme
I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just
under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small,
again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate
templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle
curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down
stall.
Graham
From: graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57
Subject: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point.
Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188
p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>
01234567890123456
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Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH |
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa cr |
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|
Max
is it feasible for you to enclose the exhaust pipe by adding a final tunnel for cooling air exit? There
is a lot of energy in the exhaust and it will pull the cooling air through on the ground. Works with Lycomings.
Graham
From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 18:58
Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Hi Bud,
A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa’s in particular.
The only point in your list which I can’t execute belongs to temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot weather comes…
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly
Envoyé : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29
À : europa-list
Objet : RE: Europa-List: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.
Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.
To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on.
I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident.
My flight test comments are as follows:
We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps.
The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational.
All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off).
The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems.
Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal.
Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall.
Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.
However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.)
Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out.
Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all.
If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy.
Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit.
Regards to all,
Bud
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100
From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Graeme
I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just
under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small,
again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate
templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle
curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down
stall.
Graham
From: graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point.
Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188
p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======
01234567890123456
7
[quote][b]
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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa cr |
|
|
Mac
Send me photos.
Radiator ducting
Any firewall forward mods.
Coolant type
Engine type and prop.
Firewall location
We will put our heads together and solve it.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr> wrote:
Hi Bud,
A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and
building and flying Europa’s in particular.
The only point in your list which I can’t execute belongs to temp in summer:
always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot
weather comes…
Max Cointe
<mailto:mcointe(at)free.fr> mcointe(at)free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly
Envoyé : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29
À : europa-list
Objet : RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in
Lübeck/Germany
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup
sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a
normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive
flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution
speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should
have had equipment, etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it
is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our
16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many
things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is
what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle
impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In
testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle
of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When
pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3
seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8
degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push
over to try to preserve airspeed and control.
Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an
aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck
angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off
unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was
necessary to preserve airspeed.
To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to
help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I
doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight
test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit
distractions early on.
I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than
stall spin accident.
My flight test comments are as follows:
We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane
angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to
verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full
proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max
angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully
primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side
holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and
Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs
verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10
gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full
and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time
temps.
The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a
cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition
only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static)
must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red
light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications).
Trim must be checked and verified operational.
All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a
must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and
Autopilots off).
The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over
aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex
electrical systems.
Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate
acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes
hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.)
Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots.
Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and
no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK.
Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found
abnormal.
Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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Jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:29 am Post subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa cr |
|
|
I had the same problem years back with the regular setup. Tried everything and nothing worked! Sealed the radiators you name it we did it.. I finally cut that bottom seal away and dropped the radiators down another 1.5 inches into the flow better. Never overheated again. Even in the Florida heat on the hottest days.
Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush / FOR SALE with brand new engine as of last year!
On May 13, 2014, at 10:49 PM, Bud Yerly wrote:
[quote] Mac
Send me photos.
Radiator ducting
Any firewall forward mods.
Coolant type
Engine type and prop.
Firewall location
We will put our heads together and solve it.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)> wrote:
Hi Bud,
A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa’s in particular.
The only point in your list which I can’t execute belongs to temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot weather comes…
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly
Envoyé : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29
À : europa-list
Objet : RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.
Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.
To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on.
I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident.
My flight test comments are as follows:
We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps.
The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational.
All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off).
The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems.
Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal.
Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall.
Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.
However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.)
Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out.
Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all.
If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy.
Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit.
Regards to all,
Bud
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100
From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Graeme
I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just
under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small,
again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate
templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle
curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down
stall.
Graham
From: graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57
Subject: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point.
Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188
p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
7
8
[b]
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