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582 breakin

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jareds(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject: 582 breakin

Greetings listers.  Hope there are still a few out there monitoring the 

list.

Finally got the 582 running again.

Going through the breakin.  switched from a clutch gearbox to a straight 

c (no clutches)

Havnt switched prop pitch since before engine rebuild.

4300 is top rpm tied down on ground.

2500 is idle

Temps got up to about 190 before i interupted them to let it cool down.

I was using  green anti freeze so will drain and put aluminum type in at 

5050.



1.  IN flight i used to get 6000 rpm with same pitch.  Will my pitch be 

ok prior to test flight?

2.  Is 2500 too high for static prop and gearbox?

3.  Do any of you remember getting higher rpms during ground breakin?

4.  Should i change fuel pumps after 2 years of fox sitting? Ran good 

during breakin?

5.  Temps have always been a problem... i lowered radiator long ago and 

built a little scoop for it and got along ok but not great.  Always had 

to be careful.  Any new suggestions in 10 years or more??



Thanks



Jared

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mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:25 am Post subject: Re: 582 breakin

After I replaced the crankshaft in my 532, I had to repitch the prop. I was getting about 5200 RPM during static runups, when before the crankshaft exchange I was getting 6200. It turns out I needed to flatten the pitch by about 1/2 degree. I got some good advice from the Rotax dealer who did the work, which was that after the crankshaft replacement, I had a "new" engine. I've learned over time that the most important gauge is the EGT. An improperly loaded two-stroke can cause the EGTs to soar. The EAA has a great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaaLb-BzqT4

Although static RPM is not the best indication of having the correct prop pitch, my experience is that 6000 to 6200 is about right. I then get 6600 at full power at Vx. But even still, I have to watch my EGTs during a powered descent when the engine is unloaded like that - they can easily exceed 1200 F. Watching the video was the best thing I ever did for understanding how to tune the engine. But what the folks who know two-strokes say is don't mess with the mixture adjustment - instead, set the mixture as it was from the factory tune the EGT by changing the pitch. I've found that to be great advice. If you want to talk about this sometime, email me at flybyewire at gmail dot com and we can exchange phone numbers.

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_________________
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop

mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:42 am Post subject: Re: 582 breakin

Jared, I've been flying with the same fuel pump, the original Minuki, for 20 years, but it sat around for two years before I ever flew it, so it's 22 years old. I carry a spare with me, though, and I have a fuel pressure gauge. For a few years, I even ran with fuel having some ethanol in it (because I live in Illinois where corn is king). I'd say, if it's giving you pressure, it's probably ok. But that's one thing about fuel pumps - they work just fine until they don't anymore. 



My engine can idle down below 2000 RPM, but that's just a matter of getting the carbs to close all the way. At that point, the RPM is simply what the RPM is going to be. 



On hot days, I've seen coolant temps at 220 F, but it's never been a problem except that some coolant will go into the overflow. Otherwise I usually see 160 - 190.

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_________________
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:01 am Post subject: 582 breakin

Jared,

I now fly a 912 but use to fly the 2-strokes, here is my 2-cents worth. If

you are concerned about your fuel pump at a minimum I would disassemble and

check the condition of the diaphragms, I would rebuild every 2-3 years

simply because it is cheap insurance. When you tie the plane down in the

yard and run it up to break in the motor the RPM will be less than when you

are in the air, when flying, as you gain speed the prop unloads and the RPMs

go up, so on the ground you do not want to see engine redline at full

throttle, I would guess if your redline is 6000 you might shoot for 5000,

but you will not know that you have set the pitch correct until you fly it

straight and level at WOT and do not over rev.. You will also want to be

very aware of your RPMs on the first flight, it will be easy to over rev

after the climb out. On the carbs and idle, I start by synchronizing my

carbs using a small drill bit slid in the throat under the slide to adjust

the height of the throttle slides so they are exact and they both are

hanging on the cables so they will begin to move together at the exact same

time, if your idle is too high drop to a smaller drill bit and repeat, after

that if you have a slack tube or set of suction gauges you can dial them

even closer.



Lloyd Cudnohufsky

Model 5 Outback

912ul IVO IFA

Northern Mi.



--

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jareds(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:21 pm Post subject: 582 breakin

Hi mike.... long time..

Thanks for the great response.

List has been pretty quiet so wasn't sure if i'd get any responses.



How is sky star doing and john mcbean??

I sure hope they keep going!!



I'd love to exchange phone numbers just in case.

Everything you said came rushing back to my pea sized little brain and 

while i got some varying responses .. yours rung true as the one that 

worked the best regarding rpms and temps and setting prop.

I was afraid that 4300 tied down on a windy day was no where near 

enough.  Gonna re pitch it and try again for 5000 tied down and i think 

if i look at my notes from 12 -14 years ago i will see what maybe 

worked.. if i can find them.



Either way its always good to bounce stuff off someone and unfortunately 

after moving from the DC area to SD there are few and far between pilots 

and even fewer who fly experimental that haven't died off or lost 

ability to fly!  Sad...

Anyway.. glad we reconnected.



605 314 4885 is my cell

Stop in ANY TIME if you are in the vicinity of SD.



Regards,



Jared.



On 5/19/2014 8:25 AM, mikeperkins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 After I replaced the crankshaft in my 532, I had to repitch the prop. I was getting about 5200 RPM during static runups, when before the crankshaft exchange I was getting 6200. It turns out I needed to flatten the pitch by about 1/2 degree. I got some good advice from the Rotax dealer who did the work, which was that after the crankshaft replacement, I had a "new" engine. I've learned over time that the most important gauge is the EGT. An improperly loaded two-stroke can cause the EGTs to soar. The EAA has a great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaaLb-BzqT4

 Although static RPM is not the best indication of having the correct prop pitch, my experience is that 6000 to 6200 is about right. I then get 6600 at full power at Vx. But even still, I have to watch my EGTs during a powered descent when the engine is unloaded like that - they can easily exceed 1200 F. Watching the video was the best thing I ever did for understanding how to tune the engine. But what the folks who know two-strokes say is don't mess with the mixture adjustment - instead, set the mixture as it was from the factory tune the EGT by changing the pitch. I've found that to be great advice. If you want to talk about this sometime, email me at flybyewire at gmail dot com and we can exchange phone numbers.



 --------

 Mike Perkins

 Havana, Illinois

 Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423442#423442

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 2:46 am Post subject: 582 breakin

here in michigan  we have a mod 2 ? 582 owner wanting to sell out  and trade up to a tripacer



Malcolm & Jeanne Brubaker 

Michigan Sport Pilot Repair 

 http://michigansportpilotrepair.com

 LSRM-A, PPC, WS

Great Sails - Sailmaker 

for Ultralight & Light Sport

(989)513-3022

  

  

  

  

        From: jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net>

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 12:19 AM

 Subject: Re: Re: 582 breakin

  

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net (jareds(at)verizon.net)>



Hi mike.... long time..

Thanks for the great response.

List has been  pretty quiet so wasn't sure if i'd get any responses.



How is sky star doing and john mcbean??

I sure hope they keep going!!



I'd love to exchange phone numbers just in case.

Everything you said came rushing back to my pea sized little brain and 

while i got some varying responses .. yours rung true as the one that 

worked the best regarding rpms and temps and setting prop.

I was afraid that 4300 tied down on a windy day was no where near 

enough.  Gonna re pitch it and try again for 5000 tied down and i think 

if i look at my notes from 12 -14 years ago i will see what maybe 

worked.. if i can find them.



Either way its always good to bounce stuff off someone and unfortunately 

after moving from the DC area to SD there are few and far between pilots 

and even fewer who fly experimental that haven't died off or lost 

ability to fly!  Sad...

Anyway.. glad we reconnected.



605 314 4885  is my cell

Stop in ANY TIME if you are in the vicinity of SD.



Regards,



Jared.



On 5/19/2014 8:25 AM, mikeperkins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   -->  Kitfox-List message posted by: "mikeperkins"<flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)>



 After I replaced the crankshaft in my 532, I had to repitch the prop. I was getting about 5200 RPM during static runups, when before the crankshaft exchange I was getting 6200. It turns out I needed to flatten the pitch by about 1/2 degree. I got some good advice from the Rotax dealer who did the work, which was that after the crankshaft replacement, I had a "new" engine. I've learned over time that the most important gauge is the EGT. An improperly loaded two-stroke can cause the EGTs to soar. The EAA has a great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaaLb-BzqT4

 Although static RPM is not the best indication of having the correct prop pitch, my experience is that 6000 to 6200 is about right. I then get 6600 at full power at Vx. But even still, I have to watch my EGTs during a powered descent when the engine is unloaded like that - they can easily exceed 1200 F. Watching the video was the best thing I ever did for understanding how to tune the engine. But what the folks who know two-strokes say is don't mess with the mixture adjustment - instead, set the mixture as it was from the factory tune the EGT by changing the pitch. I've found that to be great advice. If you want to talk about this sometime, email me at flybyewire at gmail dot com and we can exchange phone numbers.



 --------

 Mike Perkins

 Havana, Illinois

 Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop





 Read this topic  online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423442#423442





http://www.matronics.co========================http://forums.matronics.com<                     -Mats.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution==============


	




 

 

  

 [quote][b]

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Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: 582 breakin

Jared, I just reinstalled my 582 with a newÂ GA 72" Warp Drive prop. I've got it set at 12 1/2 degrees of pitch. That is what I had on my old Warp drive prop. I'm idling down around 1600 rpm andÂ max static on the ground is 5500 rpm with the engine at full operating temp. It would wind up to 5700 rpm before it warmed to full operating temp, say down around 110 degree water temp. I'm not sure what static rpm should be on this set up. I looked at an old CPS catalog which used to be the Rotax bible before they were bought out. But, couldn't find reference to static rpm.

 Can anybody verify what static rpm should be? Jared's 4300 rpm staticÂ sounds low. 

You don't mention prop specs Jared. They would help.

Pat Reilly 

Mod 3 582 Rebuilt

 Rockford, ILÂ Â 



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:33 PM, jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net (jareds(at)verizon.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net (jareds(at)verizon.net)>

  

 Greetings listers. Â Hope there are still a few out there monitoring the list.

 Finally got the 582 running again.

 Going through the breakin. Â switched from a clutch gearbox to a straight c (no clutches)

 Havnt switched prop pitch since before engine rebuild.

 4300 is top rpm tied down on ground.

 2500 is idle

 Temps got up to about 190 before i interupted them to let it cool down.

 I was using Â green anti freeze so will drain and put aluminum type in at 5050.

 

 1. Â IN flight i used to get 6000 rpm with same pitch. Â Will my pitch be ok prior to test flight?

 2. Â Is 2500 too high for static prop and gearbox?

 3. Â Do any of you remember getting higher rpms during ground breakin?

 4. Â Should i change fuel pumps after 2 years of fox sitting? Ran good during breakin?

 5. Â Temps have always been a problem... i lowered radiator long ago and built a little scoop for it and got along ok but not great. Â Always had to be careful. Â Any new suggestions in 10 years or more??

 

 Thanks

 

 Jared

 

 ====================================

 st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ====================================

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 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford,IL 

  [quote][b]

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mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 7:12 am Post subject: Re: 582 breakin

Hi Pat, 



Jared and I talked the other day offline. I mentioned my 532 static RPM was about 5800. But what I was shooting for was a Vx climb of 6600 RPM. When I finally got that, my static speed was 5800 RPM. But when I had a new crankshaft installed, along with the necessary seals and re-timed, I was getting only 4200 or so. The certified rebuilder's recommendation was to reduce the pitch because I had a "new" engine. I thought he was crazy because I was already convinced he'd screwed something up. But in fact by taking some pitch off the prop, I got back to about 6000 static. I'm also getting 6800 RPM on a Vx climb instead of 6600. So I probably need to add back in about 1/4 degree to get back 6600 again. But my overall performance numbers are close to what they were before the rebuild, so I'm not worried that I lost horsepower when it was rebuilt. Rather, the torque/RPM curve probably just moved somewhat. 



The one thing I've used as a rule is to not run my engine at high power until the coolant temp stabilizes. I don't exceed 3000 RPM until it does. The cylinder bores on the Rotax 2-strokes are round but the pistons are cam-ground, eccentric by about .010". That compensates for the cylinders' uneven expansion when everything heats up to operating temp. But at lower temperatures, the piston/cylinder clearances are not correct, and that often leads to scored pistons, which eventually leads to cold seizures. Following that rule has been pretty good for my engine; the pistons and cylinders are still looking good after 385 hours. I get the feeling that the big oil debate comes down to something else - full warm-ups prior to full power, getting the prop load matched to the engine, and watching the EGTs. (What I mean by matching the prop load to the engine is to get max RPM at max throttle in a Vx or Vy climb, your choice.) 



It's still possible in my airplane to exceed the 1200 degree EGT limit. I find that if I'm in a cruise descent with low power, say 30 percent, my EGTs soar. When I see that, I pull up to load the engine again and add a little power. Nothing brings the EGTs down quicker than that. It screws up my descent profile, but it helps the engine. 



The max RPM for a 582 is listed as 6800 (for 5 minutes), whereas my 532 is 6600. So your numbers will be different than mine. But I think the principles are the same. 



Good seeing you here again, Pat. Hope things are well with you.

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_________________
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop

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