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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:45 am Post subject: polyethylene tanks and fuel ports (used to be in-line filte |
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Sacha:
Why go through all that headache.
Come off the fuel tank at the lowest point in the delivery system.
Install two items; a T fitting with a sump drain and just before it an inline clear or translucent fuel filter. One on EACH tank, if you have two tanks.
This way you now have a water drain at the lowest point in the system AND
you have a simple replaceable fuel filter. MUCH, Much better than just a screen.
If you can replace the filters Annually at Inspection time.
Simple, easy, and very effective.
The rule you must follow is: The filter as well as your fuel lines must be able to feed fuel at 3 times the full flow rate of your engine. GPH/GPM. And of course that means a larger surface / filtering area than the screen will ever be.
Barry
On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com (uuccio(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Hi Guy, thank for your feedback… yeah, those are scary thoughts. I did mean to add “and then glass them over” to my original post in fact.
But it turns out my wing tanks are not made of resin after all; a friend who is more knowledgeable than me in these matters told me they look like they are polyethylene, or maybe a kind of nylon, like the Kitfox header tank. So gluing will be difficult and I’m not sure glassing them will work either: it looks like I will not be able to fit finger strainers (or fuel drain valves) to either wing tank as I can’t find a viable way to attach the fuel ports/aluminum flanges to the tank walls. (As they need to be close to the trailing edge of the wing, it’s not feasible to fit a counter-nut on the inside of the tank either).
Instead of finger strainers on each wing, I’m thinking of fitting a single finger strainer to the header tank. It looks like this can be done without too much difficulty if I can tin-solder some brass mesh to the fuel port (the finger strainers they sell at ACS seem to be made that way… in fact I’m having trouble finding brass mesh so I may have to cut some from one of the ACS strainers).
sacha
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Sunday, 20 July, 2014 07:07
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: in-line fuel filters - can you recommend any?
Sorry for the late reply, Sacha, I've been out of town.
That might work. You must be very careful to sand, clean, then use something like MetalPrep, then Alodine, to prep the surface of the aluminum so you get a really good bond. It will seriously ruin your day to have this flange pop off with the finger strainer in place, thereby letting the entire tank of fuel drain into your wing. > (Meaning: I would never do it, unless I glassed over it after bonding it.)
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
On 7/16/2014 8:50 PM, Sacha wrote:
| Quote: |
What do you think of the idea of gluing aluminum welding flanges to the outside of the tank using two-part epoxy resin/glue or some other adhesive. Would it work?
Once the flanges are glued i could drill holes in the tank and then screw the finger strainers/fuel drains in place.
The flange for the fuel port could be cut so that it can sit lower down.
|
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mortweaver(at)sbcglobal.n
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:53 am Post subject: polyethylene tanks and fuel ports (used to be in-line filte |
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For those that use ACS gascolators that are several years old. There is now a rubber seal ring that is rated for auto fuel with ethanol. I found that over time my ACS rubber seal washer had hardened and needed to be replaced. The newer upgraded seal washer is available from Air Spruce. I like the approach of filtering fuel with only a fire wall mounted gascolator. I have the Aero Designs after date sump drains installed on the bottom of both wings. I shaped a stream line fillet of micro around each protruding drain valve for esthetic reasons and to lower any generated airflow turbulence.
Dave Weaver N912GR
On Monday, July 28, 2014 7:51 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Sacha:
Why go through all that headache.
Come off the fuel tank at the lowest point in the delivery system.
Install two items; a T fitting with a sump drain and just before it an inline clear or translucent fuel filter. One on EACH tank, if you have two tanks.
This way you now have a water drain at the lowest point in the system AND
you have a simple replaceable fuel filter. MUCH, Much better than just a screen.
If you can replace the filters Annually at Inspection time.
Simple, easy, and very effective.
The rule you must follow is: The filter as well as your fuel lines must be able to feed fuel at 3 times the full flow rate of your engine. GPH/GPM. And of course that means a larger surface / filtering area than the screen will ever be.
Barry
On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com (uuccio(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Hi Guy, thank for your feedback… yeah, those are scary thoughts. I did mean to add “and then glass them over” to my original post in fact.
But it turns out my wing tanks are not made of resin after all; a friend who is more knowledgeable than me in these matters told me they look like they are polyethylene, or maybe a kind of nylon, like the Kitfox header tank. So gluing will be difficult and I’m not sure glassing them will work either: it looks like I will not be able to fit finger strainers (or fuel drain valves) to either wing tank as I can’t find a viable way to attach the fuel ports/aluminum flanges to the tank walls. (As they need to be close to the trailing edge of the wing, it’s not feasible to fit a counter-nut on the inside of the tank either).
Instead of finger strainers on each wing, I’m thinking of fitting a single finger strainer to the header tank. It looks like this can be done without too much difficulty if I can tin-solder some brass mesh to the fuel port (the finger strainers they sell at ACS seem to be made that way… in fact I’m having trouble finding brass mesh so I may have to cut some from one of the ACS strainers).
sacha
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Sunday, 20 July, 2014 07:07
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: in-line fuel filters - can you recommend any?
Sorry for the late reply, Sacha, I've been out of town.
That might work. You must be very careful to sand, clean, then use something like MetalPrep, then Alodine, to prep the surface of the aluminum so you get a really good bond. It will seriously ruin your day to have this flange pop off with the finger strainer in place, thereby letting the entire tank of fuel drain into your wing. > (Meaning: I would never do it, unless I glassed over it after bonding it.)
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
On 7/16/2014 8:50 PM, Sacha wrote:
| Quote: | What do you think of the idea of gluing aluminum welding flanges to the outside of the tank using two-part epoxy resin/glue or some other adhesive. Would it work?
Once the flanges are glued i could drill holes in the tank and then screw the finger strainers/fuel drains in place.
The flange for the fuel port could be cut so that it can sit lower down.
|
cs.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http --> http://www.matronics.com/con================
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
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VIXEN
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:09 pm Post subject: polyethylene tanks and fuel ports (used to be in-line filte |
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I use ONLY a gascolator on my 912 UL and in 490 hours have never had a fuel contamination issue. I use non ethanol mogas exclusively except when travelling and 100LL is all that is available. I purchase fuel directly from the bulk agent.
I might be wrong but too many filters on a gravity system may not be the answer.
Take care
Don
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 9:27 AM, David Weaver <mortweaver(at)sbcglobal.net (mortweaver(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
[quote] For those that use ACS gascolators that are several years old. There is now a rubber seal ring that is rated for auto fuel with ethanol. I found that over time my ACS rubber seal washer had hardened and needed to be replaced. The newer upgraded seal washer is available from Air Spruce. I like the approach of filtering fuel with only a fire wall mounted gascolator. I have the Aero Designs after date sump drains installed on the bottom of both wings. I shaped a stream line fillet of micro around each protruding drain valve for esthetic reasons and to lower any generated airflow turbulence.
Dave Weaver N912GR
On Monday, July 28, 2014 7:51 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Sacha:
Why go through all that headache.
Come off the fuel tank at the lowest point in the delivery system.
Install two items; a T fitting with a sump drain and just before it an inline clear or translucent fuel filter. One on EACH tank, if you have two tanks.
This way you now have a water drain at the lowest point in the system AND
you have a simple replaceable fuel filter. MUCH, Much better than just a screen.
If you can replace the filters Annually at Inspection time.
Simple, easy, and very effective.
The rule you must follow is: The filter as well as your fuel lines must be able to feed fuel at 3 times the full flow rate of your engine. GPH/GPM. And of course that means a larger surface / filtering area than the screen will ever be.
Barry
On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com (uuccio(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Guy, thank for your feedback… yeah, those are scary thoughts. I did mean to add “and then glass them over” to my original post in fact.
But it turns out my wing tanks are not made of resin after all; a friend who is more knowledgeable than me in these matters told me they look like they are polyethylene, or maybe a kind of nylon, like the Kitfox header tank. So gluing will be difficult and I’m not sure glassing them will work either: it looks like I will not be able to fit finger strainers (or fuel drain valves) to either wing tank as I can’t find a viable way to attach the fuel ports/aluminum flanges to the tank walls. (As they need to be close to the trailing edge of the wing, it’s not feasible to fit a counter-nut on the inside of the tank either).
Instead of finger strainers on each wing, I’m thinking of fitting a single finger strainer to the header tank. It looks like this can be done without too much difficulty if I can tin-solder some brass mesh to the fuel port (the finger strainers they sell at ACS seem to be made that way… in fact I’m having trouble finding brass mesh so I may have to cut some from one of the ACS strainers).
sacha
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Sunday, 20 July, 2014 07:07
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: in-line fuel filters - can you recommend any?
Sorry for the late reply, Sacha, I've been out of town.
That might work. You must be very careful to sand, clean, then use something like MetalPrep, then Alodine, to prep the surface of the aluminum so you get a really good bond. It will seriously ruin your day to have this flange pop off with the finger strainer in place, thereby letting the entire tank of fuel drain into your wing. > (Meaning: I would never do it, unless I glassed over it after bonding it.)
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
On 7/16/2014 8:50 PM, Sacha wrote:
| Quote: | What do you think of the idea of gluing aluminum welding flanges to the outside of the tank using two-part epoxy resin/glue or some other adhesive. Would it work?
Once the flanges are glued i could drill holes in the tank and then screw the finger strainers/fuel drains in place.
The flange for the fuel port could be cut so that it can sit lower down.
|
cs.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http --> http://www.matronics.com/con================
|
| Quote: |
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: polyethylene tanks and fuel ports (used to be in-line filte |
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Don:
The issue is a brass screen that is difficult or impossible to install Vs a functional in-line filter that does a better job then either the Gascolator or brass screen. I know you guys are experimental - But, do you know the issue with Gascolators and their bail? They require a second safety wire to hold the bail. And the Gascolator does not filter as fine as an inline $3.50 filter. And the Gascolator is not designed for fine filtering. It is designed for water separation. As long as you sump it at ever flight. My suggestion: Keep the Gascolator, I'm sure Sacha plans on doing that - AND - Install the in-line filter for a total worry free operation.
Barry
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Don Hudgeon <don(at)hudgeon.com (don(at)hudgeon.com)> wrote:
[quote]I use ONLY a gascolator on my 912 UL and in 490 hours have never had a fuel contamination issue. I use non ethanol mogas exclusively except when travelling and 100LL is all that is available. I purchase fuel directly from the bulk agent.
I might be wrong but too many filters on a gravity system may not be the answer.
Take care
Don
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 9:27 AM, David Weaver <mortweaver(at)sbcglobal.net (mortweaver(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | For those that use ACS gascolators that are several years old. There is now a rubber seal ring that is rated for auto fuel with ethanol. I found that over time my ACS rubber seal washer had hardened and needed to be replaced. The newer upgraded seal washer is available from Air Spruce. I like the approach of filtering fuel with only a fire wall mounted gascolator. I have the Aero Designs after date sump drains installed on the bottom of both wings. I shaped a stream line fillet of micro around each protruding drain valve for esthetic reasons and to lower any generated airflow turbulence.
Dave Weaver N912GR
On Monday, July 28, 2014 7:51 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Sacha:
Why go through all that headache.
Come off the fuel tank at the lowest point in the delivery system.
Install two items; a T fitting with a sump drain and just before it an inline clear or translucent fuel filter. One on EACH tank, if you have two tanks.
This way you now have a water drain at the lowest point in the system AND
you have a simple replaceable fuel filter. MUCH, Much better than just a screen.
If you can replace the filters Annually at Inspection time.
Simple, easy, and very effective.
The rule you must follow is: The filter as well as your fuel lines must be able to feed fuel at 3 times the full flow rate of your engine. GPH/GPM. And of course that means a larger surface / filtering area than the screen will ever be.
Barry
On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com (uuccio(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Guy, thank for your feedback… yeah, those are scary thoughts. I did mean to add “and then glass them over” to my original post in fact.
But it turns out my wing tanks are not made of resin after all; a friend who is more knowledgeable than me in these matters told me they look like they are polyethylene, or maybe a kind of nylon, like the Kitfox header tank. So gluing will be difficult and I’m not sure glassing them will work either: it looks like I will not be able to fit finger strainers (or fuel drain valves) to either wing tank as I can’t find a viable way to attach the fuel ports/aluminum flanges to the tank walls. (As they need to be close to the trailing edge of the wing, it’s not feasible to fit a counter-nut on the inside of the tank either).
Instead of finger strainers on each wing, I’m thinking of fitting a single finger strainer to the header tank. It looks like this can be done without too much difficulty if I can tin-solder some brass mesh to the fuel port (the finger strainers they sell at ACS seem to be made that way… in fact I’m having trouble finding brass mesh so I may have to cut some from one of the ACS strainers).
sacha
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Sunday, 20 July, 2014 07:07
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: in-line fuel filters - can you recommend any?
Sorry for the late reply, Sacha, I've been out of town.
That might work. You must be very careful to sand, clean, then use something like MetalPrep, then Alodine, to prep the surface of the aluminum so you get a really good bond. It will seriously ruin your day to have this flange pop off with the finger strainer in place, thereby letting the entire tank of fuel drain into your wing. > (Meaning: I would never do it, unless I glassed over it after bonding it.)
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
On 7/16/2014 8:50 PM, Sacha wrote:
| Quote: | What do you think of the idea of gluing aluminum welding flanges to the outside of the tank using two-part epoxy resin/glue or some other adhesive. Would it work?
Once the flanges are glued i could drill holes in the tank and then screw the finger strainers/fuel drains in place.
The flange for the fuel port could be cut so that it can sit lower down.
|
cs.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http --> http://www.matronics.com/con================
|
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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uuccio(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: polyethylene tanks and fuel ports (used to be in-line filte |
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Thank you all for your suggestions.
I’m planning to keep the gascolator because it’s currently installed at the lowest point in the whole fuel system and would be where water is most likely to accumulate. Water could also accumulate in the wings (I have recently been reading www.sumpthis.com which I would recommended if you’re interested in this issue) and I would also ideally want a sump drain in each wing. If I can’t install one there, I will probably follow Barry’s suggestions to install one on a T-fitting just outside the wing fuel port.
As far as in-line fuel filters between the wings and the header tank, I sympathize with the view that too many filters can potentially be a problem with a gravity feed system, but I am also leaning towards including them because a) there are no strainers in the wings to stop gunk from getting into the feeder tank and b) there are two such filters, so they would both have to clog up in order to affect fuel flow and c) even if they did end up blocking fuel flow from the wings, my header tanks will hold 13 litres (3.8 gals) which is enough for almost an hour of flying around looking for a place to land. Of course, if I do install them I’ll have to re-run all the fuel flow tests and make sure they are satisfactory. I have a fuel pressure gauge mounted so this will also be useful to gauge the resistance offered by any in-line filter.
Again, thanks all for the helpful and stimulating comments.
Sacha
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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