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tkondrat(at)roadrunner.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:52 am Post subject: Stator

I am going to attempt to rewind the stator off my AeroVee engine.  Has

anyone done this before?  What words of wisdom can you impart, such as what

to be wary of, where to buy components, etc.



Thanks

Tom

Sonex 1414X

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:16 am Post subject: Stator

On 9/21/2014 7:50 AM, Thomas Kondrat wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am going to attempt to rewind the stator off my AeroVee engine.  Has

 anyone done this before?  What words of wisdom can you impart, such as what

 to be wary of, where to buy components, etc.



 Thanks

 Tom

 Sonex 1414X



To repair it, or to change its characteristics? If just repair, have you 
	


tried to find a replacement stator? Odds are very high that its an 

off-the-shelf item from a motorcycle or other small engine.



Charlie

skywagon

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 184

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: Stator

Tom,

I do not know anything about the alternator used on your engine.

However, I would bet that it is used in many other applications, such that 

you could find the replacement instead of going thru the trouble of a 

rewind.  Example, Most Cessna alternators and regulators are really Ford 

products. D



_______________________________________________________________

---

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: Stator

At 16:47 2014-09-21, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>



 Tom,

 I do not know anything about the alternator used on your engine.

 However, I would bet that it is used in many other applications, such that you could find the replacement instead of going thru the trouble of a rewind.  Example, Most Cessna alternators and regulators are really Ford products. D 	




   Tom's alternator isn't anything like you'd

   find on a Cessna . . .



 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20140921180034.01f97ff0(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



   It's a permanent magnet alternator with windings

   that look something like this . . .



 

   Bob . . .

2c5e0968.jpg

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Stator

I am curious to know the purpose of rewinding the alternator.  Is the winding open or partially shorted?  Is the winding stationary and permanent magnets rotate with the engine?  Is a new winding available from Sonex at a reasonable price?  Maybe the same winding is available from Briggs & Stratton or Tecumseh.  The stator of an alternator is usually pretty robust and unlikely to fail.  What are the symptoms that suggest that winding replacement is necessary?  Or is the goal to improve the alternator output?

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Stator

Here are some sources for magnet wire:

http://www.magnet4less.com/?cPath=9

http://www.powerwerx.com/wire-cable/magnet-wire.html

It is also available at eBay and Amazon and Digikey.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: Stator

It is easy testing the stator with a isolation and continuity test. No point rewinding it if that test is ok. Visually the stator looks fine. Maybe the rotor has been so hot that the permanent magnets have partly demagnetised. You need some green magnet paper or a gaus meter to verify even magnetisation of you pm rotor



All the best



Jan

On Sep 23, 2014, at 4:36, Jim Kale <jimkale(at)roadrunner.com (jimkale(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:

[quote] v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]-->  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

That is a single phase alternator.  The windings in this photo look perfectly good.   The only reason to rewind one would be if the windings were somehow damaged or shorted internally somewhere.   The big factor on rewinding is to get the correct size wire and then make sure the direction of the turns on each element are correct.  Normally the winding direction is reversed on every other element.  Since these windings don’t turn, there is no problem with the wire being thrown off by centrifugal force.   I agree with the other advice though.  It would be much easier all around to just get a new one.

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III

Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 6:03 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stator

 

At 16:47 2014-09-21, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net (skywagon(at)charter.net)>



Tom,

I do not know anything about the alternator used on your engine.

However, I would bet that it is used in many other applications, such that you could find the replacement instead of going thru the trouble of a rewind.  Example, Most Cessna alternators and regulators are really Ford products. D 	


  Tom's alternator isn't anything like you'd

  find on a Cessna . . .



<image001.jpg>



  It's a permanent magnet alternator with windings

  that look something like this . . .



  Bob . . .



[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:08 pm Post subject: Stator

At 18:34 2014-09-22, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  It is easy testing the stator with a isolation and continuity test. 

No point rewinding it if that test is ok. Visually the stator looks 

fine. Maybe the rotor has been so hot that the permanent magnets 

have partly demagnetised. You need some green magnet paper or a gaus 

meter to verify even magnetisation of you pm rotor


	


   The picture I posted for the PM alternator stator was

   and exemplar NEW device. I think the stator that

   started this thread was toast. They're not hard to rewind

   as long as care is taken to insure insulation integrity

   between windings and the stator core. Hopefully his

   original core was powder coated and not damaged.



   Bob . . .

skywagon

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 184

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:34 pm Post subject: Stator

One of the oddest stator failures I have  ever witnessed was a hairline crack in the stator wiring that only opened  when the alternator group reached a certain temperature.  In that case, it  was where the end of the heavy stator wire was swaged into the case for  grounding.  I think the wire was stressed during manufacture and the fault  did not fully materialize until much later.  

 When the alternator was reviewed and bench tested no  failure could be found.  On the test stand it was not subject to the temps  needed to open the fault. . !!

 It was an old grey haired, very wise, electrical  alternator wizard guy that unraveled that mystery.  

  

   

 [quote]   ---

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: Stator

At 18:34 2014-09-22, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  It is easy testing the stator with a isolation and continuity test. 

No point rewinding it if that test is ok. Visually the stator looks 

fine. Maybe the rotor has been so hot that the permanent magnets 

have partly demagnetised. You need some green magnet paper or a gaus 

meter to verify even magnetisation of you pm rotor


	


   The picture I posted for the PM alternator stator was

   and exemplar NEW device. I think the stator that

   started this thread was toast. They're not hard to rewind

   as long as care is taken to insure insulation integrity

   between windings and the stator core. Hopefully his

   original core was powder coated and not damaged.



   Bob . . .

jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:42 pm Post subject: Stator

Always a good thing to test at operating temperature. Just stick it in a oven .. Or outside in a black box in the sun ....  .. Poor mans heat chamber ... Then do your readings ...



All the best



Jan

On Sep 23, 2014, at 9:33, David Lloyd <skywagon(at)charter.net (skywagon(at)charter.net)> wrote:

[quote]    One of the oddest stator failures I have  ever witnessed was a hairline crack in the stator wiring that only opened  when the alternator group reached a certain temperature.  In that case, it  was where the end of the heavy stator wire was swaged into the case for  grounding.  I think the wire was stressed during manufacture and the fault  did not fully materialize until much later.  

 When the alternator was reviewed and bench tested no  failure could be found.  On the test stand it was not subject to the temps  needed to open the fault. . !!

 It was an old grey haired, very wise, electrical  alternator wizard guy that unraveled that mystery.  

  

   

 [quote]   ---

tkondrat(at)roadrunner.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:53 pm Post subject: Stator

I am not sure if I am doing this right, but I wanted to thank everyone that

responded to my stator problem.  I can not find a replacement because there

are no numbers to cross reference and a new one from Sonex is $500.  I think

the material would be less than $100 and it would be a good learning

experience!



Thanks again,



Tom

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: Stator

At 16:52 2014-09-23, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<tkondrat(at)roadrunner.com>



I am not sure if I am doing this right, but I wanted to thank everyone that

responded to my stator problem.  I can not find a replacement because there

are no numbers to cross reference and a new one from Sonex is $500.  I think

the material would be less than $100 and it would be a good learning

experience!


	


   The material should be MUCH less than $100 . . . Have

   you un-wound the existing wire, measured its length

   and put a caliper or micrometer on its diameter? I

   have access to several aircraft motor wind shops that

   will have class-h insulation magnet wire suited to

   your task.



   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: Stator

By the way, how much load is on this alternator

   in flight? What kind of rectifier/regulator

   do you run?



   There are two techniques for voltage regulation

   on PM alternators . . . the legacy, easy to do,

   shunt regulator that essentially has the alternator

   running full load all the time. Then there's the

   more modern series regulators that load the

   alternator only to meet system requirements.



   This winding may have failed because of a shunt

   regulator . . . I can help you make sure that

   your newly rewound alternator is not unnecessarily

   taxed.

   Bob . . .

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:11 pm Post subject: Stator

Thomas, I don't know if you could make it fit, but Harley Davidson has a couple of different sizes of alternator (dynamo) that you might be able to adapt. When I replaced mine due to a pinched wire the whole kit was $140 minus the regulator.



Rick Girard

do not archive

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Thomas Kondrat <tkondrat(at)roadrunner.com (tkondrat(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Thomas Kondrat <tkondrat(at)roadrunner.com (tkondrat(at)roadrunner.com)>

 

 I am not sure if I am doing this right, but I wanted to thank everyone that

 responded to my stator problem.  I can not find a replacement because there

 are no numbers to cross reference and a new one from Sonex is $500.  I think

 the material would be less than $100 and it would be a good learning

 experience!

 

 Thanks again,

 

 Tom

 

 

 

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 Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

  - Groucho Marx

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:39 pm Post subject: Stator

On 9/23/2014 4:52 PM, Thomas Kondrat wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am not sure if I am doing this right, but I wanted to thank everyone that

 responded to my stator problem.  I can not find a replacement because there

 are no numbers to cross reference and a new one from Sonex is $500.  I think

 the material would be less than $100 and it would be a good learning

 experience!



 Thanks again,



 Tom



Tom,
	




Have you tried ebay, google, amazon, etc? How about posting a pic with 

accurate measurements? Here's the 1st site I found with a google search 

for 'motorcycle alternator stator':

http://www.jpcycles.com/motorcycle-stators

It shows pics of dozens of models; you should be able to narrow down the 

choices a lot just by appearance, and then counting generating coils & 

trigger coils (likely one or at most two trigger coils; should be 

obviously different).



You can also try googling 'outboard motor alternator stator'.



Or better yet, have you asked on lists that are frequented by users of 

aerovee engines? Odds are good that *somebody* has already found an 

aftermarket solution.



Charlie

tkondrat(at)roadrunner.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:16 am Post subject: Stator

Has anyone actually rewound a stator?  My plan is to chamfer the edges of

the poles slightly since they are square and quite sharp on the edge.  Then

cover the stator in kapton tape.  Then use two strands of 16 gauge to wind

19 turns on each pole (total of 2x19=3 which is what is there now.



Does anyone have a better idea??



Thanks

Tom

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:33 am Post subject: Stator

At 11:14 2014-09-27, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<tkondrat(at)roadrunner.com>



Has anyone actually rewound a stator?  My plan is to chamfer the edges of

the poles slightly since they are square and quite sharp on the edge.  Then

cover the stator in kapton tape.  Then use two strands of 16 gauge to wind

19 turns on each pole (total of 2x19=3 which is what is there now.



Does anyone have a better idea??


	


   Sounds good. The chamfer doesn't need to be

   much more than to 'break' the sharp corner.

   The Kapton is probably good. I've also seen

   multiple layers (like 10 or so) of the Teflon

   thread tape as an insulation between wires

   and laminations.



   Your present winding is bi-filar? Connected

   in series or parallel?



   Bob . . .

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Stator

 	  Quote: 	
		   I've also seen multiple layers (like 10 or so) of the Teflon 

thread tape as an insulation between wires and laminations. Bob N. 	




Bob,



That's probably true, but that doesn't make it right. Don't use it.



As for rewinding things, I've rewound a few motors and transformers in my salad days. I've even had to rewind the same Volvo wiper motor twice...it's a learning process. I even used an old record player to wind 10,000 turns of hair-thin wire on an early audio transformer. You can do well at this with the right materials and advice. And I wouldn't be surprised if you find someone to do it for you for short money.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:19 am Post subject: Stator

At 09:02 2014-09-28, you wrote:

 >  I've also seen multiple layers (like 10 or so) of the Teflon

 > thread tape as an insulation between wires and laminations. Bob N.

Bob,

That's probably true, but that doesn't make it right. Don't use it.

   Can you elaborate?

As for rewinding things, I've rewound a few motors and transformers 

in my salad days. I've even had to rewind the same Volvo wiper motor 

twice...it's a learning process. I even used an old record player to 

wind 10,000 turns of hair-thin wire on an early audio transformer. 

You can do well at this with the right materials and advice. And I 

wouldn't be surprised if you find someone to do it for you for short money.

   To be sure, education was never cheap in terms of time

   and expense . . . but we're free . . . at least for now

   to choose what topics in which we wish to invest our

   educational budget.

   The List is an opportunity to share lessons learned and

   to sift alternatives. The teacher's imperative "Don't

   use it" is of little value unless the underlying foundations

   are offered as to why.

   Until he mentioned what appears to be a bi-fillar

   winding, the task was relatively low risk. Now, if

   we are to serve the questioner well, we need to

   make sure that WE and ultimately HE understands

   the significance of two wires laid down together.

   Bob . . .

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