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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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 Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:50 am Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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Thank you for the kind words Charlie, pardon me for taking so long to reply but I'm trying to pry this big black hat off my head.
I have a thick enough skin to be here, and take whatever anyone can dish out. I can dish it out pretty well too, except that I can already tell that "respectful but spirited debate" is not on the menu here.
Per Mr. Hauck's comment, I would have posted a bio here, but some of the people might have seen it as boastful, and some others might have seen it as irrelevant to the Kolb, and others surely might have seen it as "posturing" and "posing" to substitute for actual technical ability. But since someone asked, my aviation mini-bio is this:
Powered aircraft owned and flown:
4 Taylorcrafts (3 American, 1 British "Auster")
Piper J-3-75 Cub
Grumman AA-1-150 Yankee
Van's RV-3A
Cassutt IIM Formula One race aircraft (#81 "BooRay")
1956 "Straight Tail" Cessna 172 (current)
Powered aircraft competition results:
5th Place F-1 Silver, Reno National Championship Air Races 1988
Racing Sailplanes owned and flown:
Schempp-Hirth HS-7 Mini-Nimbus"
Schleicher AS-W20
Schleicher AS-W20BL
Schempp-Hirth Ventus B 16.6
Sailplane competition results (national level only) Contest Number "VB":
FAI US National Speed Record 500KM out & return speed 15 Meter Class 1984
FAI US National Speed Record 500KM out & return speed Open Class, 1984
9th Place, US National Sports Class Soaring Championships, Minden NV 1986
FAI Soaring Achievement Badges A, B, C, Silver C, Gold C, Diamond C
First Solo 12-30-1977 (Cessna 152, KSMO)
FAA Ratings: Private Pilot Airplane, Private Pilot Glider (Aero-Tow only)
Total Hours PIC: Approx 1800
Formal Aircraft Technical Training:
2.5 Year Course Completion, Los Angeles Trade Tech College, Airframe and Powerplant Mechanics, 1983
Federal Aviation Administration Aircraft Design / Modification Approvals:
FAA-STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) SA02246LA "EZ Flap" www.ezflaphandle.com
FAA-PMA (Parts Manufacturing Manufacturing Approval) for above STC
As for the points mentioned in several other posts on this list, I would like to mention a few things... I chose to look for a Kolb kit in the first place because I was impressed with many of the design choices made by Mr. Kolb, and specifically that it had a good reputation for safety and flying qualities.
The Kolb design was upgraded and modernized several times by Mr. Kolb and the Kolb company, complete with modifications, changes, fine-tuning, and other things. It is clear that these changes were done for several reasons, including improved safety, durability, higher performance, lower risk, ease of manufacturing, and cost of manufacturing. Just like every other aircraft manufacturer from Boeing to Grumman to Van's to RANS to Piper to Aeronca.
And every single airplane ever produced has some shortcoming or compromise that MAY benefit from being tweaked a little. A lot of the time people's ideas are quickly shown to not make any improvements. Occasionally there will be some improvement. Burt Rutan's name was mentioned by myself and others. He has always said that his success was because he was willing to try new things, and do weird stuff to see if it worked. I may not be as smart as he is, but I'm smart enough to watch how he thinks and dare to try something new like he did.
It's completely irrelevant to Kolb elevator hinges, but I invented a safety/performance modification for airplanes that everyone said was not necessary ("Cessna did it just fine, son"). The treatment that I received on the internet lists and forums makes this place look like a luxury spa. So far, I have over 300 of these modifications sold around the world, and have maintained a 96% customer satisfaction rate.
Among several other reasons, I came to the Kolb list with a desire to discuss ideas and "brainstorm" with others about making a good airplane better. I never expected there to be such a large gap between the brains and the storm 
Charlie thanks again for standing up for me, not only for me personally but for anyone else who may be easier to keel-haul than me.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/25/16, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, March 25, 2016, 8:17 AM
Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
On 3/25/2016 12:22 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
> I do hope that you are right. Personally I came to the
conclusion that
> if he looked in the mirror he would see the "bully"
that he was
> describing. I guess he reminds me a bit too much of Jet
Pilot. :-/ I
> guess I prefer do'ers rather than talkers. I probably
spent too many
> years as a cop, and my belief in my fellow man was most
likely
> stunted.
> I shall wait with interest, and hope for the best.
> Larry
Who and what are you talking about? For those of use who get
individual
emails from the list, what you see above is all we see when
you post a
message like this. Are you talking about one of the people
that
responded to Bill Berle's questions? Because that could be
any of a
number of responders.
In the context of the elevator/stabilizer discussion:
As a somewhat disinterested observer (mostly lurking here
because I
would like to own a Kolb in the future), I'd have to say
that most of
the responses to Bill Berle's questions have been, well,
more like
watching the current presidential debates than reasoned,
scientific/engineering based answers. Most have, at least in
spirit,
accused Bill of being a communist fascist atheist muslim
terrorist for
even suggesting that anything Homer designed might be less
than perfect.
All he really asked for is an explanation of why a
particular mechanism
was designed the way it was. It should have been easy enough
to simply
say something like, 'Every design is a compromise, and it
was done that
way because it's strong enough to be safe, and allows a
simple
implementation of another feature (like folding the tail).'
Instead,
because no one seems to know the answer, the questioner was
attacked for
asking a legitimate question about a design point that
is apparently
outside common engineering practice.
I'd like to commend Bill for maintaining a thick skin and
sticking
around after all the attacks. Most would have given up and
gone
elsewhere for answers. Which, Bill, you'll probably need to
do, since
all that's available here is a religious devotion to Homer
and his
preaching.
Charlie
Lists This Month --
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Rex Rodebush
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and was in project, design, R & D, and Mgt. for about 40 years. I am a firm believer in that "If its not broke don't screw with it." If you look at a completed Kolb Mk III tail and visualize the loads it is apparent (at least to me), that the hinges should not be a problem. Many flight hours have proven that out.
Having said that I didn't have any problem with Bill's questions. He noticed something that concerned him (right or wrong) and questioned it.
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west1m
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 155
Location: Hastings, MN
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
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_________________
West1m
Hastings, MN |
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:19 pm Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because the designer of the tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an unusual configuration too."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:41 am Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting the
messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
I have always had a question about wing twist and possible aileron
reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because the designer of the tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an unusual configuration too."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
|
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left.
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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:05 am Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g turns...Herb
On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
| Quote: |
In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting the
messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
I have always had a question about wing twist and possible aileron
reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does
> this mean the tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>
> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't
> be because YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because
> the designer of the tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an
> engineering degree.
>
> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
>
> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I
> pointed out the parts that I asked questions about, and which started
> such a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of
> questions about an unusual configuration too."
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
|
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left.
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:20 am Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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Herb
Are you trying to stir things up?
You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge. You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible aerobatics with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)>
to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g turns...Herb
On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)>
In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting the messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
I have always had a question about wing twist and possible aileron reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m(at)hotmail.com (west1m(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because the designer of the tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an unusual configuration too."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
|
|
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left.
===========
br> fts!)
r> > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:18 am Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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Just a question Rick?
I wonder how our little planes respond to aileron inputs beyond a 60 deg bank? it comes to mind because the ailerons are stiff and sit on a long torque tube... and the rear tube and ribs are all that support the aileron beyond the drag strut lift strut attach point...
I recall Wayne Ison saying that 60 degree banks was the max recommended for their planes.. Apparently not enough aileron or rudder to get out of the bank beyond some angle... Herb (who me??)
On 03/27/2016 11:11 AM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Herb
Are you trying to stir things up?
You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge. You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible aerobatics with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <[url=mailto:Herbgh(at)nctc.com]Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)[/url]>
to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g turns...Herb
On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <[url=mailto:Herbgh(at)nctc.com]Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)[/url]>
In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting the messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
I have always had a question about wing twist and possible aileron reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <[url=mailto:victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net]victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)[/url]>
On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <[url=mailto:west1m(at)hotmail.com]west1m(at)hotmail.com (west1m(at)hotmail.com)[/url]> wrote:
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because the designer of the tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an unusual configuration too."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
|
|
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left.
===========
br> fts!)
r> > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left.
|
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:16 am Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge. You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible aerobatics
with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
-----------------
The captain of the Titanic "never heard of the Titanic having an iceberg issue before" either. Just because something never happened before doesn't mean that exploring the possibility, or wanting to understand the design better, or discussing whether it's a significant risk... is "stirring up" trouble.
Rick's post brings up an important question of mine: Please define the OFFICIAL Matronics/Kolb list policy on the difference between "stirring things up" and bringing up a potential technical/engineering discussion.
Speaking as someone with 20+ years of experience on aviation related internet discussion forums, I am 100% certain that it would be very appropriate for the more experienced members here, as well as the list moderator(s) to publish their definition of the distinction between constructive discussion and causing trouble.
Then, once we can review that official definition, it should be very clear as to whether Herb's post, or my previous posts, or anyone else's... should be viewed as problematic. This posting is an official request for the list moderator and/or list owner to provide such a definition.
Unless Herb and Rick are buddies, and Rick is just pulling his leg, the tone of Rick's response is a little ominous. Definitely not displaying camaraderie or mutual respect to my ears. If they are friends and just poking at each other for fun, then that is different.
Another thing in Rick's post raised some concern for me on a more directly design-relevant issue. Unless I'm reading it wrong, he's saying that someone went "Way beyond 2G" in an attempt to determine the absolute limits of the design... as if "beyond 2G" is pretty far out there toward the absolute limit. But the reality is that 2G is what you get with a 60 degree banked turn in level flight, if I'm remembering my basic flight training 40 years ago. 2G is NOWHERE NEAR the ultimate load on any legitimate aircraft design.
Saying that "beyond 2G" was a significant attempt to explore the "absolute limit" of an airplane is like saying that "The Ford Mustang test driver went way beyond 60 miles an hour to explore the absolute limit of the tires".
At a bare minimum, the Kolb or any non-aerobatic airplane should be designed for a 3.8G maximum "design load", with a 50% safety margin, yielding a 5.7G "ultimate load" (absolute limits) before anything actually breaks. This is the FAA "standard category" load, which also represents an appropriate minimum level of strength for any experimental as well.
Most airplanes, including a large number of experimentals, are built to slightly higher "Utility Category" design loads.
I had previously been under the impression that the Kolb was indeed engineered or tested to at least thee 3.8 +50% level.
FAR more importantly, if Herb brought up a question about something on a safety level... whether he is correct or incorrect about what he was concerned with... the more experienced and/or qualified members of this list should either address the question without trying to intimidate him, or they should leave it to others with more knowledge to answer the question.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge. You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible aerobatics
with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016
at 11:04 AM, Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com>
wrote:
Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com>
to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g
turns...Herb
On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting
the messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
I have always had a question about wing twist and
possible aileron reversal...but have been hesitant to
ask....Herb
On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m(at)hotmail.com>
wrote:
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical
engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off
my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it
wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering
degree. It would be because the designer of the tail or
hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge
itself.
A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans
today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions
about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah,
I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an
unusual configuration too."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third
red light and turn left.
===========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:14 pm Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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I have always been curious about the behavior of our birds...when
maneuvering beyond a 2 g turn....Never seen any sort of hand book or
specs about that area of the flight envelope....
I note to you, Bill, that the kolbs have had counter balances added
to the ailerons some years ago...also that some of the models..have had
the aileron torque tube inboard actuation moved to the middle of the
aileron itself...
Other light planes with inboard aileron actuation over long torque
tubes need counter balancing against flutter..
since Kolbs are not neutrally stable, what happens in a high bank
angle . What brings it back to level flight at inadvertent near or at
redline speeds? Especially when altitude is not your friend?? Herb
On 03/27/2016 02:13 PM, Bill Berle wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge. You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible aerobatics
with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
-----------------
The captain of the Titanic "never heard of the Titanic having an iceberg issue before" either. Just because something never happened before doesn't mean that exploring the possibility, or wanting to understand the design better, or discussing whether it's a significant risk... is "stirring up" trouble.
Rick's post brings up an important question of mine: Please define the OFFICIAL Matronics/Kolb list policy on the difference between "stirring things up" and bringing up a potential technical/engineering discussion.
Speaking as someone with 20+ years of experience on aviation related internet discussion forums, I am 100% certain that it would be very appropriate for the more experienced members here, as well as the list moderator(s) to publish their definition of the distinction between constructive discussion and causing trouble.
Then, once we can review that official definition, it should be very clear as to whether Herb's post, or my previous posts, or anyone else's... should be viewed as problematic. This posting is an official request for the list moderator and/or list owner to provide such a definition.
Unless Herb and Rick are buddies, and Rick is just pulling his leg, the tone of Rick's response is a little ominous. Definitely not displaying camaraderie or mutual respect to my ears. If they are friends and just poking at each other for fun, then that is different.
Another thing in Rick's post raised some concern for me on a more directly design-relevant issue. Unless I'm reading it wrong, he's saying that someone went "Way beyond 2G" in an attempt to determine the absolute limits of the design... as if "beyond 2G" is pretty far out there toward the absolute limit. But the reality is that 2G is what you get with a 60 degree banked turn in level flight, if I'm remembering my basic flight training 40 years ago. 2G is NOWHERE NEAR the ultimate load on any legitimate aircraft design.
Saying that "beyond 2G" was a significant attempt to explore the "absolute limit" of an airplane is like saying that "The Ford Mustang test driver went way beyond 60 miles an hour to explore the absolute limit of the tires".
At a bare minimum, the Kolb or any non-aerobatic airplane should be designed for a 3.8G maximum "design load", with a 50% safety margin, yielding a 5.7G "ultimate load" (absolute limits) before anything actually breaks. This is the FAA "standard category" load, which also represents an appropriate minimum level of strength for any experimental as well.
Most airplanes, including a large number of experimentals, are built to slightly higher "Utility Category" design loads.
I had previously been under the impression that the Kolb was indeed engineered or tested to at least thee 3.8 +50% level.
FAR more importantly, if Herb brought up a question about something on a safety level... whether he is correct or incorrect about what he was concerned with... the more experienced and/or qualified members of this list should either address the question without trying to intimidate him, or they should leave it to others with more knowledge to answer the question.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge. You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible aerobatics
with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016
at 11:04 AM, Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com>
wrote:
Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com>
to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g
turns...Herb
On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting
the messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
I have always had a question about wing twist and
possible aileron reversal...but have been hesitant to
ask....Herb
On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m(at)hotmail.com>
wrote:
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical
engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off
my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it
wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering
degree. It would be because the designer of the tail or
hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge
itself.
A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans
today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions
about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah,
I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an
unusual configuration too."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
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baberdk
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 53
Location: East Moline, Il
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:54 am Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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Is it possible for us to quit attacking each other and talk about Kolbs? Please?
Respectfully,
Dennis Baber
(305) 814-7218
baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)
Connection - Compassion - Control
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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:21 am Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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I think ole John did the job....He explained much about the history of Kolbs and modifications....that the factory is responsive to problems...and better still...showed how much experience this list has flying and wrecking our birds...
any one the least bit skeptical should feel assured by what he wrote... Great airplanes,,,jump in the water ...only way to get the ultimate thrill that is flying our little birds....Herb
On 03/28/2016 10:53 AM, Denny Baber wrote:
| Quote: | Is it possible for us to quit attacking each other and talk about Kolbs? Please?
Respectfully,
Dennis Baber
(305) 814-7218
[url=mailto:baberdk(at)gmail.com]baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)[/url]
Connection - Compassion - Control
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left.
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:47 am Post subject: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
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On Mon, 3/28/16, Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible for us to quit attacking each other and talk about Kolbs? Please?
-----------------
Excellent idea !
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