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8.33khz and the Netherlands

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Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 185

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:18 pm Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/2016-06-09-AIRAC/eAIP/html/index-en-GB.html



For those of you planning on a visit to Texel this year it's worth ensuring you read AIC-A 02/2016.  The link above should take you there.



It would appear that some frequencies are being converted to 8.33khz operation and unless you have the capability of selecting an assigned frequency you may be refused access to the area you are wanting to cross.



Alan Burrill

G-OBJT

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Please be aware that EHBK is not the only airport in The Netherlands that has already switch to 8.33 spacing!



I don't have the exact details at hand of when each airport is making this switch, but I am pretty sure that Rotterdam (EHRD) and Amsterdam Schiphol (EHAM) have already made the switch to 8.33 spacing also. I'm not sure about De Kooy (EHKD - just south of Texel) and other controlled airports, you will have to check those for sure.



For Rotterdam and Amsterdam I don't believe this is a big issue for visitors from the south: follow the coastline and you will stay clear of CTR's (provided your altitude is well below 1100'), and you are fine with 25kHz spacing. When your route is east of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, you will indeed have to pay special attention to this theme.

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:38 pm Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Hi All



It's a fair point. The first Dutch fine has apparently already been issued to UK a pilot! So this is serious stuff. 

€7,500 fine for being unable to select an 8.33Khz channel when in Dutch airspace that required it. Apparently, the level of fine can be increased in steps up to €22,500 for subsequent misdemeanours.



Regards



Bob Hitchcock



XS Mono

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:33 am Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Alan, Since Jan 2014 8.33 has been compulsory for classC or above anywhere in Europe (see Flying in Europe on club website) We don't have class C but a lot of continental countries do and Holland in particular has lots. 

Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ   

 

On 2016-07-25 22:17, Alan Burrill wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)>

http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/2016-06-09-AIRAC/eAIP/html/index-en-GB.html



For those of you planning on a visit to Texel this year it's worth ensuring you read AIC-A 02/2016.  The link above should take you there.



It would appear that some frequencies are being converted to 8.33khz operation and unless you have the capability of selecting an assigned frequency you may be refused access to the area you are wanting to cross.



Alan Burrill

G-OBJT





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Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 185

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:53 am Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Thanks David I was aware of that, I initiated the NATS project to deal with 8.33.

Not everyone is aware however and it would appear that it's not only class c airspace the Dutch are targeting but more important some people are not aware and ending up with problems.

Alan



Sent from my iPad



On 26 Jul 2016, at 09:31, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    

  

Alan, Since Jan 2014 8.33 has been compulsory for classC or above anywhere in Europe (see Flying in Europe on club website) We don't have class C but a lot of continental countries do and Holland in particular has lots. 

Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ   

 

On 2016-07-25 22:17, Alan Burrill wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)>

http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/2016-06-09-AIRAC/eAIP/html/index-en-GB.html



For those of you planning on a visit to Texel this year it's worth ensuring you read AIC-A 02/2016.  The link above should take you there.



It would appear that some frequencies are being converted to 8.33khz operation and unless you have the capability of selecting an assigned frequency you may be refused access to the area you are wanting to cross.



Alan Burrill

G-OBJT





ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ics.com

.com

.matronics.com/contribution

riddon(at)sent.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:49 am Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Ah Well,  



Was going to go to Texel but not now as I do not have an 8.33 radio. Don’t want to take the risk of a large fine. 



Richard Iddon



G-RIXS

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 25 Jul 2016, at 22:17, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/2016-06-09-AIRAC/eAIP/html/index-en-GB.html

 

 For those of you planning on a visit to Texel this year it's worth ensuring you read AIC-A 02/2016.  The link above should take you there.

 

 It would appear that some frequencies are being converted to 8.33khz operation and unless you have the capability of selecting an assigned frequency you may be refused access to the area you are wanting to cross.

 

 Alan Burrill

 G-OBJT

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:35 am Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Hi! Richard,

Subject to status of Shoulder operations I'm expecting to fly the North Sea Direct again. I don’t think that the new system will apply to Texel except it will be necessary to approach the coast beyond the De-koy(?) Zone.( Still need to verify though) May be possible to check with the rally organisers yet.

Regards Bob H 



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:27 am Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Richard, I am pretty clear tha tit is just those 7 to 10 mile radius class C zones round the major airports that are the problem. If you fly round them, which isn't difficult you should be fine. But maybe Tim Weert will give us the definitive answer ? You can always join the 6Ns and we will take you there in formation! 

Regards, David 

   

 

On 2016-07-26 19:34, Bob Harrison wrote: [quote] [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk (ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk)>  Hi! Richard, Subject to status of Shoulder operations I'm expecting to fly the North Sea Direct again. I don't think that the new system will apply to Texel except it will be necessary to approach the coast beyond the De-koy(?) Zone.( Still need to verify though) May be possible to check with the rally organisers yet. Regards Bob H   --

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

 	  davidjoyce(at)doctors.org wrote: 	
		  Richard, I am pretty clear tha tit is just those 7 to 10 mile radius class C zones round the major airports that are the problem. If you fly round them, which isn't difficult you should be fine. But maybe Tim Weert will give us the definitive answer ? 	


That is correct, currently 8.33 is compulsary for Class C only and indeed the CTR's that have switched to 8.33 are 8 miles radius (although Amsterdam have a little 'bump' added to the regular CTR in the soutch and the north). I would expect the route north will keep you outside Rotterdam CTR and Amsterdam CTR anyway, the only CTR to doublecheck would then be De Kooy (although you can easily circumnavigate easterly from the De Kooy and forget about it altogehter.



In short: no big deal!



(PS I have not yet heard of anyone receiving a fine, but then again I don't hear all that's going on   )

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:19 pm Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Hi Marcel, Hi David



Approaching from the west and being aware suggests all could be OK for the Texel scenario. Only those needing a service from an 8:33 class C would be  impacted. When I last flew to Texel it was "route one" across the North Sea. I had De Hooy as an option for contact. On the official link below De Hooy is not available to non 8:33 compliant aircraft from this month. If a route was chosen that required a route, then the following list of stations would seem to be important. Always a disappointment to loose communication options, especially when flying a long way over water with few options already.



List of Dutch stations (note due for update).  De Hooy is on the list of stations no longer available.

Citation 8:33

 http://ais-netherlands.nl/aim/2016-05-12-AIRAC/eAIP/html/eAIC/EH-eAIC-2016-02-A-en-GB.html



Citation of Dutch fine.

 http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=100979&start=15

Regards



Bob

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Thanks Bob for including the link to the conversion planning, that's helpful for all that are visiting from abroad!



Also I stand corrected: 8:33 is not limited to CTR's, as clearly outlined in the link you provided 



Hope to meet many of you at Texel!

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:52 am Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Hi Marcel 

It's always good to talk. Great to hear from you after such a long time.  Hope to meet up at some point. For me 8:33 De Kooy (always have difficulty with my writing and speaking Dutch language, apologies.) makes it awkward. Though we in the UK have had some great news.  A confirmation that in the UK will now gain a subsidy from the EU of 20% of the cost of a new 8.33 radio. Personally  I will fill in a form and buy one as soon as the final version of the application form is released. Presume you also have ( as a fellow EU citizen) the same opportunity in The Netherlands?

Bulletin :"€4.3m of grants from the EU, the CAA confirmed today.The CAA applied to the EU for €4.3m funding to encourage the timely transition of the UK GA fleet from existing 25 kHz radios to 8.33kHz equipment.  That application was for the maximum permitted grant of 20 per cent of the estimated total cost of 8.33kHz equipage."

Regards

Bob Hitchcock

Mono XS

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:56 am Post subject: Re: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

 	  bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co wrote: 	
		  Hi Marcel 

It's always good to talk. Great to hear from you after such a long time.  Hope to meet up at some point. 	


Likewise, it's been far too long. Hope you can make it to Texel despite the radio issues...

 	  bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co wrote: 	
		  For me 8:33 De Kooy ...makes it awkward. 	


Why, do you require to talk to them when flying direct then?



 	  bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co wrote: 	
		  Though we in the UK have had some great news.  A confirmation that in the UK will now gain a subsidy from the EU of 20% of the cost of a new 8.33 radio. 	


About 6 months ago there was talk in Holland about a similar arrangement, but that got blown away. I have revived that discussion after reading your message and checking the CAA website. Hey, why would you Brits with your Brexit still get EU funds and we in The Netherlands don't

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:10 am Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

De Kooy

...........Why, do you require to talk to them when flying direct then?........

:;:

Hi Marcel



For me having the ability to talk to De Kooy is an important 



It all about the risk balance, which is personal to each pilot. And the legal requirements.



The journey for me is 160 nautical miles over water. My current radio is low power by today's standards and ready for upgrade. Experience of flying this direct track previously tells me I go out of radio contact with stations  for twenty minutes due to radio transmission height/range/power/weather. 



 (1) I would like to have the option, to be able to talk directly to the nearest rescue station if I were in difficulty. The De Kooy military station had a high quality powerful radio that is a reliable contact. 

(2) De Kooy also had good radar coverage to identify me should I have a distress situation. 

(3) Finally the weather often changes dramatically as you approach the Dutch coast. It was good to have De Kooy as the diversion option. It had plenty of kit to get you down.



When I get the subsidised 8:33 upgrade will I gain extra power as well as the ability to contact all ATSU again, including De Kooy. 



Of course it's all a matter of opinion. Different pilots would reach different conclusions. Read  the David Joyce (Mono XS) article on ditching in the sea.  Really good read on minimising risk and maximising chances of survival.



Regards

Bob Hitchcock



Europa XS Mono

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:27 am Post subject: 8.33khz and the Netherlands

Bob, Thanks for the plug! Pity there are no royalties! The article, by the way is in the Flight Safety section on the club website. 

Whilst I see where you are coming from, I personally don't feel any need to actually talk to de Kooy in those circumstances. Simply listening in on frequency does it for me. If things do go pear shaped you are all set to send out your SOS, and it is unlikely they are going to get twitchy about 8.33 mhz in such circumstances. I take a similar approach to flying close to controlled sirspace in UK. For instance going round London I prefer not to talk to Farnborough, who are usually grossly overworked and really struggle to give any reliable service. Instead I listen in and dial up the appropriate listening squawk. The multiplication of listening squawks suggests that large ATC units would prefer not to be actually talking to the average GA plane! 

Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ  

 

On 2016-07-30 09:10, Bob Hitchcock wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Bob Hitchcock <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com (bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com)>

De Kooy

............Why, do you require to talk to them when flying direct then?........

:;:

Hi Marcel



For me having the ability to talk to De Kooy is an important 



It all about the risk balance, which is personal to each pilot. And the legal requirements.



The journey for me is 160 nautical miles over water. My current radio is low power by today's standards and ready for upgrade. Experience of flying this direct track previously tells me I go out of radio contact with stations  for twenty minutes due to radio transmission height/range/power/weather. 



 (1) I would like to have the option, to be able to talk directly to the nearest rescue station if I were in difficulty. The De Kooy military station had a high quality powerful radio that is a reliable contact. 

(2) De Kooy also had good radar coverage to identify me should I have a distress situation. 

(3) Finally the weather often changes dramatically as you approach the Dutch coast. It was good to have De Kooy as the diversion option. It had plenty of kit to get you down.



When I get the subsidised 8:33 upgrade will I gain extra power as well as the ability to contact all ATSU again, including De Kooy. 



Of course it's all a matter of opinion. Different pilots would reach different conclusions. Read  the David Joyce (Mono XS) article on ditching in the sea.  Really good read on minimising risk and maximising chances of survival.



Regards

Bob Hitchcock



Europa XS Mono



ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ics.com

.com

.matronics.com/contribution

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