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Wig Wag difficulties

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decaclops(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:57 pm Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

Howdy,



I've wired up my landing lights using the Tridon flasher and two 

switches according to the WIGWAG WITH B&C SSF-1 FLASHER page 5.0 diagram 

and I can't get them to work right. When I put the first switch in the 

center wig wag, position, the flasher just buzzes. When the second 

switch is put in the center position, I sometimes get 1 flash and then 

it just hangs with one light lit. I reversed the 2 and 3 wires at the 

flasher and the behavior switches sides.



For lights I'm using the Baja Designs Squadron Pro Leds at 42w each and 

I put the 5w 75 ohm resistors across them as in the drawing LED WIGWAG 

WITH B&C SSF-1 FLASHER, page 1.0.



I've verified the wiring and the switch functions with a continuity 

tester. I changed out the flasher and it worked perfectly for about a 

half a minute. I turned it off to install the switches back in the panel 

and when I tried it again, same hang up.



Any ideas?



Ed Holyoke

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

On 8/9/2016 6:56 PM, Ed wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Howdy,



 I've wired up my landing lights using the Tridon flasher and two 

 switches according to the WIGWAG WITH B&C SSF-1 FLASHER page 5.0 

 diagram and I can't get them to work right. When I put the first 

 switch in the center wig wag, position, the flasher just buzzes. When 

 the second switch is put in the center position, I sometimes get 1 

 flash and then it just hangs with one light lit. I reversed the 2 and 

 3 wires at the flasher and the behavior switches sides.



 For lights I'm using the Baja Designs Squadron Pro Leds at 42w each 

 and I put the 5w 75 ohm resistors across them as in the drawing LED 

 WIGWAG WITH B&C SSF-1 FLASHER, page 1.0.



 I've verified the wiring and the switch functions with a continuity 

 tester. I changed out the flasher and it worked perfectly for about a 

 half a minute. I turned it off to install the switches back in the 

 panel and when I tried it again, same hang up.



 Any ideas?



 Ed Holyoke

I can't find the flasher on their web site, but if it's buzzing, that 
	


sounds like it's one of the old style mechanical 'vibrator' style 

flashers. If you use them with LED lights, the lights probably don't 

draw enough current to make the flasher 'switch' between the lights.



FWIW....



Charlie

decaclops(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:53 pm Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

Yup, and that's why I put the resistor across the light per Bob's 

drawing. B&C doesn't seem to carry the flasher anymore but it is still 

available if you look around for it. Tridon EL13A-2.



Ed



On 8/9/2016 5:42 PM, Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>



 On 8/9/2016 6:56 PM, Ed wrote:

> 

>

> Howdy,

>

> I've wired up my landing lights using the Tridon flasher and two

> switches according to the WIGWAG WITH B&C SSF-1 FLASHER page 5.0

> diagram and I can't get them to work right. When I put the first

> switch in the center wig wag, position, the flasher just buzzes. When

> the second switch is put in the center position, I sometimes get 1

> flash and then it just hangs with one light lit. I reversed the 2 and

> 3 wires at the flasher and the behavior switches sides.

>

> For lights I'm using the Baja Designs Squadron Pro Leds at 42w each

> and I put the 5w 75 ohm resistors across them as in the drawing LED

> WIGWAG WITH B&C SSF-1 FLASHER, page 1.0.

>

> I've verified the wiring and the switch functions with a continuity

> tester. I changed out the flasher and it worked perfectly for about a

> half a minute. I turned it off to install the switches back in the

> panel and when I tried it again, same hang up.

>

> Any ideas?

>

> Ed Holyoke

 I can't find the flasher on their web site, but if it's buzzing, that

 sounds like it's one of the old style mechanical 'vibrator' style

 flashers. If you use them with LED lights, the lights probably don't

 draw enough current to make the flasher 'switch' between the lights.



 FWIW....



 Charlie

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf

_________________
Joe Gores

lyleapgmc

Joined: 19 Feb 2014
Posts: 57

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:18 pm Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

There are flashers specifically for LED lights  that will operate with 

the light (no pun intended) load of LEDs.  They are used on cars and 

motorcycles, particularly when incandescent lamps are replaced with LEDs.



One of the reasons for installing LEDs is that they draw much less 

current.  Another is that the run very cool.  Adding a resistor across 

them defeats the purposes and the advantage is gone.  The resistor has 

to sink the current that an incandescent bulb would draw.  This creates 

heat just as it does when the incandescent bulb is lit.



I consider the resistor to be a jury rigged cure that is best dealt with 

by using the correct components.



Lyle

On 8/9/2016 10:53 PM, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf



 --------

 Joe Gores





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459415#459415

decaclops(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:05 am Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

Howdy Lyle,

It is indeed a bandaid, but perhaps not a complete loss. 75 ohms at 

12.5v is less than 2/10 of an amp. I can afford that. The problem that I 

have with it is it didn't work to make the flasher cycle. I think I'll 

try paralleling 2 of them. That will cost me about a third of an amp. 

Little enough if it makes the circuit work right. I'll still be at less 

than half of the 8 amps that 100w halogens would pull.

Got a part number for the correct LED flasher? The one's I've been 

looking at need switched power to them or they will constantly flash. 

Not impossible to manage, but it means a revision of the wiring and 

switching at best and an additional switch at worst. Since I've already 

silk screened my panel, I'd like to avoid that.

Ed

On 8/9/2016 9:15 PM, Lyle Peterson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <lyleap(at)centurylink.net>

 There are flashers specifically for LED lights  that will operate with

 the light (no pun intended) load of LEDs.  They are used on cars and

 motorcycles, particularly when incandescent lamps are replaced with LEDs.

 One of the reasons for installing LEDs is that they draw much less

 current.  Another is that the run very cool.  Adding a resistor across

 them defeats the purposes and the advantage is gone.  The resistor has

 to sink the current that an incandescent bulb would draw.  This creates

 heat just as it does when the incandescent bulb is lit.

 I consider the resistor to be a jury rigged cure that is best dealt with

 by using the correct components.

 Lyle

 On 8/9/2016 10:53 PM, user9253 wrote:

> 

>

> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf

>

> --------

> Joe Gores

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459415#459415

>

decaclops(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:07 am Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

Thanks, Joe.



Page 5.0 is the drawing I emulated, along with the resistors shown on 

the last page. I'm wired exactly as drawn and it's not working as it 

should. I'm thinking about trying parallel resistors to have 37.5 ohms 

across the lights. Maybe that will do it.



Ed



On 8/9/2016 8:53 PM, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf



 --------

 Joe Gores





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459415#459415

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties

I still sell my wig wags by the boatload. They require no load resistor and work on everything (almost). Not the cheapest, but they are guaranteed forever if I can manage it.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

decaclops(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:10 am Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on each 

light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested it. The 

resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too hot to touch 

lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I might try some 

50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of an amp and run 

slightly cooler.



Ed

henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:46 am Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

Look at the bright side, Ed.  As your alternator fails and your battery voltage goes down, your Gube Roldberg (I'm dyslexic) two resistor implementation will suck in less current to dissipate less vital battery energy.  There is a reason for LED lighting other than reliability - they use less power (energy).  Why not do the right thing and replace that wig wagger with something that works with less current flowing through it, e.g. Eric Jones' wig wagger?  It sounds like a brighter idea than power dissipating resistors giving off invisible infrared photons.  I don't mean to speak for Eric, but maybe he can ship you a unit to test drive.  If it works, great; if it doesn't, you ship it back.

 

Henador Titzoff



  	  Quote: 	
		        From: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com>

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 2:09 PM

 Subject: Re: Re: Wig Wag difficulties

  

 

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com (decaclops(at)gmail.com)>



To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on each 

light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested it. The 

resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too hot to touch 

lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I might try some 

50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of an amp and run 

slightly cooler.

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List<; http://forums.sp;             - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -http://wiki.masp;                     -nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut===============

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:39 pm Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

>Adding a resistor across them defeats the

 >purposes and the advantage is gone.



   . . . by how much?



 > your Gube Roldberg (I'm dyslexic) two resistor

 > implementation will suck in less current . . 

   

   Incandescent lamps were king When that flasher

   was first applied to OBAM   aircraft, further, 

   the lowest cost solution for fabricating a useful wig-wag

   installation was realized by incorporating an

   automotive, 3-terminal flasher. Given that

   three terminals are quickly used up with

   two lamp outputs and one power input. For the

   internals of this flasher to function, it needed

   to seek a power ground through the OFF side

   lamp.



   This philosophy worked well in cars for decades

   before flying a few decades more in airplanes.

   When builders began the transition to LED

   populated fixtures, it seems that the legacy

   flasher technology was unable to secure a

   operable ground through the newer lamp

   technology.



   The first design goal was to offer a means

   by which existing incandescent installations

   could be converted to LED with a minimum

   of cost . . . and power 'wasted'. Experiments

   conducted in our shop and on some airplanes

   showed that the added resistors would allow

   a quick and easy transition to LED.



   75 ohms paralleled with the fixtures I

   had access to appeared to be a good compromise

   while adding only 0.2 amps to system loads

   in the wig-wag mode.



   Yes, they run too hot to touch . . . so do

   battery contactors . . .



   There were, and stall are, plans for replacing

   the automotive flasher . . . but if the flasher

   is not performing as needed in a new installation,

   there has to be an explanation . . . which would

   be interesting to know.



   Had anyone offered an "LED compatible" wig-wag

   flasher in a neat little box with the resistors

   built in, few if any consumers would be aware

   of them . . . and probably not inclined to

   speak of them in pejoratives. 



   To be sure, there are more efficient alternatives

   in new hardware . . . at a price in dollars

   (and perhaps labor to make a change-out).



   The notion that the resistors represent a significant

   'waste' during battery only operations begs

   the question as to what the total endurance loads

   look like . . . I suggest that if one even

   chooses to run wig-wag in a battery only

   endurance mode . . . the resistor losses

   are insignificant.



   I'd like to think this forum is the place where

   designs are explored and decisions made on

   an analysis of measurements, outcome of

   experiment and a quest for achieving design

   goals . . . throwing sand and spit-balls is

   not helpful.



   Let's be good shepherd of electrons and see if we

   can figure out why this one system is not

   working as expected when hundreds of similar

   systems have been flying for years.



 

 

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:18 pm Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

At 01:09 PM 8/10/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com>



 To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on each light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested it. The resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too hot to touch lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I might try some 50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of an amp and run slightly cooler.= 	


   A power resistor running at rated dissipation

   will sizzle-spit . . . over 100C surface

   temperature. They just do that.



   Your experiment suggests that the flasher

   in hand is a bit more demanding of a low-

   as-practical resistance to ground on the

   OFF lamp.



   I've had a couple builders use resistors

   much like this



  http://tinyurl.com/jroz29g 



   while rated at many more watts . . . if

   not mounted to a heat sinking surface, 

   it too would be too hot to touch. The

   handy thing about these guys is that

   they're easy to mount on metal surface

   that sharply reduces their operating

   surface temperature.



   And . . . of course . . . you can change

   out the flasher for one more specific

   to the application.



   I've opened several versions of those

   devices. One particular model was easily

   converted to a 4-wire device by cutting

   a trace on the board and soldering

   on a ground wire to bring out of the case.



   Then the need for 'grounding resistors'

   goes away. But if the externally added

   resistors is not a source of heartburn,

   then I suspect the devices cited above

   will do the job . . . and the price is

   right.



 

 

   Bob . . .

decaclops(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:10 am Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

Howdy Bob,

It behaved the same with two different flashers, both EL 13A-2, one 

Tridon brand the other Novita which appears to be the follow on to 

Tridon. Maybe 75 ohms would work at 14.4v, but I'm testing in the garage 

at more like 12.6 with a power supply supporting a battery. When cold, 

it would sometimes flash for a few and then stop. My guess is that the 

resistance went up with heat and the current was reduced below the 

threshold that the flasher would work with.

The mountable and heat sinked resistors seem like a good idea. Better 

than zip tying a hot resistor to the wires for sure.

I am not worried about .3A as long as the alternator is running. If it 

is offline, so will be my main buss and the exterior lighting. My load 

analysis shows me at 26.4A for night VFR while wigwaging. That's 66% of 

my 40A alternator capacity. When I designed and built my electrical 

system, I was planning to use 100w halogens as I have in my other 

airplane. I've dropped at least 4 amps with the LEDs. I'm also going 

with LED position/strobe lights for an additional current and weight 

savings of around 9 amps and 2 1/2 pounds.

Ed

On 8/10/2016 8:17 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 01:09 PM 8/10/2016, you wrote:

> 

>

> To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on each

> light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested it. The

> resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too hot to touch

> lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I might try some

> 50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of an amp and run

> slightly cooler.=

   A power resistor running at rated dissipation

   will sizzle-spit . . . over 100C surface

   temperature. They just do that.

   Your experiment suggests that the flasher

   in hand is a bit more demanding of a low-

   as-practical resistance to ground on the

   OFF lamp.

   I've had a couple builders use resistors

   much like this

 *http://tinyurl.com/jroz29g*

   while rated at many more watts . . . if

   not mounted to a heat sinking surface,

   it too would be too hot to touch. The

   handy thing about these guys is that

   they're easy to mount on metal surface

   that sharply reduces their operating

   surface temperature.

   And . . . of course . . . you can change

   out the flasher for one more specific

   to the application.

   I've opened several versions of those

   devices. One particular model was easily

   converted to a 4-wire device by cutting

   a trace on the board and soldering

   on a ground wire to bring out of the case.

   Then the need for 'grounding resistors'

   goes away. But if the externally added

   resistors is not a source of heartburn,

   then I suspect the devices cited above

   will do the job . . . and the price is

   right.

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:00 pm Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

At 11:05 AM 8/11/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com>



 Howdy Bob,



 It behaved the same with two different flashers, both EL 13A-2, one Tridon brand the other Novita which appears to be the follow on to Tridon. Maybe 75 ohms would work at 14.4v, but I'm testing in the garage at more like 12.6 with a power supply supporting a battery. When cold, it would sometimes flash for a few and then stop. My guess is that the resistance went up with heat and the current was reduced below the threshold that the flasher would work with.



 The mountable and heat sinked resistors seem like a good idea. Better than zip tying a hot resistor to the wires for sure.



 I am not worried about .3A as long as the alternator is running. If it is offline, so will be my main buss and the exterior lighting. My load analysis shows me at 26.4A for night VFR while wigwaging. That's 66% of my 40A alternator capacity. When I designed and built my electrical system, I was planning to use 100w halogens as I have in my other airplane. I've dropped at least 4 amps with the LEDs. I'm also going with LED position/strobe lights for an additional current and weight savings of around 9 amps and 2 1/2 pounds.



 Ed 	


  Good moves. Why would you run wig-wags with

  an off-line alternator? 



  First, such an occurrence is rare.



  When it does occur, the design goal is

  NOT to run everything including the kitchen

  sink . . . but to keep really USEFUL things

  running until the airport of INTENDED DESTINATION

  is in sight. In the earliest days of the implementation

  of an e-bus, EN ROUTE operating loads were often

  reduced to 3 amps or less.



  Certainly, running any form of exterior lighting

  does not improve significantly on your probability

  of comfortable termination of flight. 



  Adding the SD-8 in Z-13/8 was a quantum jump

  in options for EN ROUTE energy consumption. A

  Plan-B could consider continuous consumption

  of 8A or more . . . with total independence

  on the battery's contained energy.



  Once the airport was in sight, you could

  fire up everything, kitchen sink and all,

  for descent and approach to landing.



  The through process in this particular

  Failure Modes Effects Analysis is to deduce

  electrical demands for sustained flight

  sans main alternator. For myself, the

  design goal would be to sustain useful/

  necessary electro-whizzies, battery only

  for duration of fuel aboard.



  I.e. your ELECTRICAL endurance should be

  equal to or greater than FUEL endurance.

  In no scenario can I imagine that exterior

  lighting of any kind is a significant factor

  in the equation for comfortable termination

  of flight at airport of intended destination.



  Back when LongEz was king, a nav/com, transponder,

  turn-coordinator and minimal panel lighting

  was easily power up for 4 hours or more by

  a rather small battery.



  Your own demands for comfortable EN ROUTE

  operations without a main alternator are

  undoubtedly different. It's a good thing

  to KNOW what they are and then design

  for meeting those demands for what ever

  ENDURANCE value you choose . . . perhaps

  an hour is okay in your book . . . but 3+

  hours would not be a bad thing.



  Energy consumption for exterior lighting

  doesn't figure into that consideration.



   



 

 

   Bob . . .

decaclops(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:09 pm Post subject: Wig Wag difficulties

Howdy Bob,

Yeah, I had an alternator fail in our 6A and just kept going. I had cap 

checked the RG-25 battery at the most recent annual using a 4 amp load 

with a West Mountain Radio CBA, and got 8 hours out of it to 10.5v so I 

knew that the situation wasn't critical. We flew on for a couple of 

hours, landed for gas, and flew another hour and a half to our intended 

destination. Replaced the alternator the next day and still had plenty 

of pop in the battery for engine start.

My new plane will pull a little over 6 amps at minimum load with 2 

electronic ignitions, another 2 amps if I don't kill the MFD. I have two 

PC680s which I will cap check before I fly and at each annual so I will 

know my endurance. I can power the E-bus with either or both batteries 

so I can run one and hold the other in reserve if I so choose. Using the 

Odyssey discharge charts, I'm reading about 5 hrs. endurance, if I'm 

careful. I may still put on an SD-8 for belt and suspenders.

Ed

On 8/11/2016 5:58 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 11:05 AM 8/11/2016, you wrote:

> 

>

  Good moves. Why would you run wig-wags with

  an off-line alternator?

  First, such an occurrence is rare.

  When it does occur, the design goal is

  NOT to run everything including the kitchen

  sink . . . but to keep really USEFUL things

  running until the airport of INTENDED DESTINATION

  is in sight. In the earliest days of the implementation

  of an e-bus, EN ROUTE operating loads were often

  reduced to 3 amps or less.

  Certainly, running any form of exterior lighting

  does not improve significantly on your probability

  of comfortable termination of flight.

  Adding the SD-8 in Z-13/8 was a quantum jump

  in options for EN ROUTE energy consumption. A

  Plan-B could consider continuous consumption

  of 8A or more . . . with total independence

  on the battery's contained energy.

  Once the airport was in sight, you could

  fire up everything, kitchen sink and all,

  for descent and approach to landing.

  The through process in this particular

  Failure Modes Effects Analysis is to deduce

  electrical demands for sustained flight

  sans main alternator. For myself, the

  design goal would be to sustain useful/

  necessary electro-whizzies, battery only

  for duration of fuel aboard.

  I.e. your ELECTRICAL endurance should be

  equal to or greater than FUEL endurance.

  In no scenario can I imagine that exterior

  lighting of any kind is a significant factor

  in the equation for comfortable termination

  of flight at airport of intended destination.

  Back when LongEz was king, a nav/com, transponder,

  turn-coordinator and minimal panel lighting

  was easily power up for 4 hours or more by

  a rather small battery.

  Your own demands for comfortable EN ROUTE

  operations without a main alternator are

  undoubtedly different. It's a good thing

  to KNOW what they are and then design

  for meeting those demands for what ever

  ENDURANCE value you choose . . . perhaps

  an hour is okay in your book . . . but 3+

  hours would not be a bad thing.

  Energy consumption for exterior lighting

  doesn't figure into that consideration.

   Bob . . .

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