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Ttail
Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 120
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 Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:24 pm Post subject: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P |
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Seeking some views on the use of W100Plus oils or W100 with Camguard in the M14P. Are there any negative aspects to its use ?
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picko
Joined: 20 Nov 2013
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:22 pm Post subject: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P |
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You seen this?
Sent from my iPad
> On 16 May 2019, at 11:24 am, Ttail <ttail(at)internode.on.net> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ttail" <ttail(at)internode.on.net>
>
> Seeking some views on the use of W100Plus oils or Camguard in the M14P. Are there any negative aspects to its use ?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489244#489244
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Running_In_instructions_&_avoiding_cylinder_corrosion.pdf |
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Ttail
Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P |
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Cant download it ... want to Email it ?
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 3:37 am Post subject: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P |
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From the aero shell manual:
RADIAL ENGINES
Radial engines utilise special parts and, depending upon the type of aircraft, application and climate are often subject to specific problems not seen in other types of piston engines.
In a radial engine each bank of cylinders has all of the cylinders in the same plane and transmits power through a single master rod bearing to the crankshaft. This master rod bearing is subjected to high loading and absorbs the shock and vibration from the cylinders and thus requires very good protection from the lubricant. Generally radial engines have greater piston and bearing clearances and thus require a higher viscosity oil.
As a result of all this heavy duty stress, it is recommended that for radial engines used in normal operation (all operations except agricultural spraying), an oil such as AeroShell
Oil W120 is used in moderate to temperate climates and AeroShell Oil W100 in cooler climates (if breaking-in, then AeroShell Oil 120 and 100 respectively). Alternatively AeroShell Oil W 15W-50 could be used in those radial engines for which it is approved. None of these oils contain zinc additives which if used would quickly destroy the master rod bearing.
Agricultural operations represent a special problem for an oil used in radial engines. This is because of problems with high dirt and overspray ingestion into the oil. The best way to combat this is proper maintenance, good flying procedures and frequent oil changes.
Sent from my iPad
On May 15, 2019, at 11:20 PM, Al Pickering <alpick(at)live.com.au (alpick(at)live.com.au)> wrote:
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 3:50 am Post subject: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P |
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In our standard instructions with engines that we have overhauled, we
specifically recommend Aeroshell "plus" or Camguard. However I have heard a
view that these can affect the plating on the master rod bearing – but we
have seen many engines and have not noticed this problem, but of course the
use of these oils/additives is relatively recent. So, we don't have evidence
either way.
On the other hand these engines do corrode quite significantly, particularly
in a humid environment. The Russian instructions are that every engine
should be run every 14 days, and if not they should have short-term
conservation which means removing one row of plugs; spraying in preservative
oil into each cylinder; replacing the plugs with a desiccant plug; closing
the throttle and blocking the exhaust.
The problem is that many of these aircraft are not used regularly and
consistently, and I know of many aircraft, particularly in the UK where at
the end of October they are put into a sometimes damp hanger and left until
the beginning of March with nothing done to prevent corrosion, and in such
cases the use of anticorrosion oils must be of benefit.
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
--
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captPod
Joined: 06 Jan 2014
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:32 am Post subject: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P |
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I have had lengthy discussions with Shell and a well respected Warbird operator regarding oil and Camguard. Let me begin with my A&P/ AI has been pushing Camguard for years on Lycoming engines. He and I had discussion with shell engineer at S N F this year. He is unequivocal that the additives in Aeroshell 100 and 120 are similar to what is found in Camguard. Strictly on coct, Camguard loses the argument. Going further, he stated that using Camguard does not increase the benefits of the additives. In fact, it decreases the lubricator of the oil.
Bottom line pick an hours interval based on filtering equipment AND a maximum of FOUR MONTHS between changes. My mechanic is no longer as enthusiastic about Camguard as he was. I’m not using it.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On May 15, 2019, at 11:20 PM, Al Pickering <alpick(at)live.com.au (alpick(at)live.com.au)> wrote:
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yakman285(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 2:32 am Post subject: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P |
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During a maintenance conference at AirVenture, some years back, a presentation was made by a rep from a West Coast radial engine rebuilder. The company has changed names and morphed a bit but I think there are still two shops still in the business of overhauling big radials.
My main take-away was that the Silver plating on the master rod carried most of the dynamic load and that layer was protected by a layer of Lead, which also acted as a shock cushion. Leaching away the Lead layer exposed the Silver which is an active metal, vulnerable to attack from Zinc compounds. At some point, the Silver depletes and result is seizure. From there the engine starts coming apart.
Standard practice in the OH process was to X-ray the master rod bearings, even on WW-II overhauls fresh out of the can, as a means of checking the integrity of that Silver layer. Some X-ray prints were shown as part of the presentation.
What I heard was "Do not use oils that have compounds that scavenge Lead". Our flat engine oils are designed to remove Lead left behind from the use of Leaded fuels such as 100LL.
Â
I stopped using any oils not designed for Radial Engines. Our Yak/CJ engines master rod ends are manufactured in the same way as those big radials.
Craig Payne
 Virus-free. www.avg.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 3:30 am Post subject: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P |
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Interesting. But, for the record, the master rod bushing on the M 14 P engine is a copper base with lead on top – no silver. I am no metallurgist, but I would slightly doubt whether oil additives would attack solid lead metal.
Richard Goode
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: 17 May 2019 11:32
To: yak-list <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P
During a maintenance conference at AirVenture, some years back, a presentation was made by a rep from a West Coast radial engine rebuilder. The company has changed names and morphed a bit but I think there are still two shops still in the business of overhauling big radials.
My main take-away was that the Silver plating on the master rod carried most of the dynamic load and that layer was protected by a layer of Lead, which also acted as a shock cushion. Leaching away the Lead layer exposed the Silver which is an active metal, vulnerable to attack from Zinc compounds. At some point, the Silver depletes and result is seizure. From there the engine starts coming apart.
Standard practice in the OH process was to X-ray the master rod bearings, even on WW-II overhauls fresh out of the can, as a means of checking the integrity of that Silver layer. Some X-ray prints were shown as part of the presentation.
What I heard was "Do not use oils that have compounds that scavenge Lead". Our flat engine oils are designed to remove Lead left behind from the use of Leaded fuels such as 100LL.
I stopped using any oils not designed for Radial Engines. Our Yak/CJ engines master rod ends are manufactured in the same way as those big radials.
Craig Payne
Virus-free. www.avg.com
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Ttail
Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P |
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What Oils do you use Yakman ?
From the Camguard FAQ:
"Q: Can I use CamGuard Aviation in any type of aircraft engines?
A: CamGuard Aviation is safe to use and beneficial for all air and water-cooled aircraft engines including horizontally opposed, radial, V-type and in-line engines. It contains multi-metal corrosion inhibitors to specifically address the protection of the soft metals, copper, lead, tin, silver and magnesium."
https://aslcamguard.com/faq/
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JL2A
Joined: 07 Apr 2015
Posts: 113
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:07 am Post subject: Re: W100Plus and Camguard in the M14P |
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Phillips 25W-60 since 2015. Oil specifically formulated for radials (although this could mean simply the viscosity. Who knows, marketing :/)
No additives, but our aircraft fly at least once per week.
No issues.
Before 2015 we ran Aeroshell 100 as was recommended to me by the old hands.
That engine has subsequently been pulled apart and when examined closely many of the small oil(?) holes in the conrod's small end were blocked with carbon.
We are now allowed to run our engines 'on condition' rather than chuck them at 600 hours. My conclusion is that if you aren't running an ashless dispersant oil, you'd have to stick with the original overhaul period. Or risk blocked oil galleries.
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