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draftsjust417(at)gmail.co
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 Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:14 pm Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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Ok CJ6-ers, at least those of you with the Housai engines..Which is your preferred oil, Phillips X/C 20W-50, or their 25W-60?
(I've been using 20W-50 in Seattle w/o issues, but perhaps the 25W-60 is better?)
Thoughts, experiences?
Justin
N280NC
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jonboede(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:21 pm Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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25W50 in the winter, radial 120 in the summer.
| Quote: | On Jul 28, 2019, at 3:19 PM, Justin Drafts <draftsjust417(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Ok CJ6-ers, at least those of you with the Housai engines...
Which is your preferred oil, Phillips X/C 20W-50, or their 25W-60?
(I've been using 20W-50 in Seattle w/o issues, but perhaps the 25W-60 is better?)
Thoughts, experiences?
Justin
N280NC
|
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:28 pm Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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I see no problem with X/C 25W60 year round. That is the advantage of a
multi-grade. Just stay to hell away from Aeroshell semi-synthetic W15W50.
Walt
--
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:47 pm Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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Perhaps I should have mentioned I too am in the general "Seattle "area in
southern, central BC.
Also (though I am sure everyone is aware) that multi-grades are expressed in
SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) terminology rather than SUS (Saybolt
Universal Seconds) which is the standard terminology for aviation oils. SAE
60 = SUS 120.
Walt
--
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:46 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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I used Aeroshell 100 Plus year around in my M-14 with regular changes at 40 hours. Each time I used a multi-grade I got oil leaks. I found on opening my engine (top over hauls to zero overhauls) the inside looked and was fairly clean. Might note though, with the exception of OSH trips, I flew mostly in the Florida skies. Plus most of the time I'd cruise at 1780 rpm and 26" manifold pressure. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--
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Keebler
Joined: 26 Oct 2018
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:47 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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We use the same Aeroshell 100 Plus in the CJ. After talking with a number of folks we decided to make the switch and it’s seems to well. I have noticed less oil leaks as well but we also recently changed mechanics and did an extra through annual.
On Jul 29, 2019, at 4:54 AM, "cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] I used Aeroshell 100 Plus year around in my M-14 with regular changes at 40 hours. Each time I used a multi-grade I got oil leaks. I found on opening my engine (top over hauls to zero overhauls) the inside looked and was fairly clean. Might note though, with the exception of OSH trips, I flew mostly in the Florida skies. Plus most of the time I'd cruise at 1780 rpm and 26" manifold pressure. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:07 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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We feel strongly that these engines are not designed for modern multigrade oils, and whatever the nominal viscosity might be, they are definitely far thinner, particularly when hot, than mono-grade oils. And this definitely leads to oil leaks.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JEREMY KEYES
Sent: 29 July 2019 12:48
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
We use the same Aeroshell 100 Plus in the CJ. After talking with a number of folks we decided to make the switch and it’s seems to well. I have noticed less oil leaks as well but we also recently changed mechanics and did an extra through annual.
On Jul 29, 2019, at 4:54 AM, "cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote]
I used Aeroshell 100 Plus year around in my M-14 with regular changes at 40 hours. Each time I used a multi-grade I got oil leaks. I found on opening my engine (top over hauls to zero overhauls) the inside looked and was fairly clean. Might note though, with the exception of OSH trips, I flew mostly in the Florida skies. Plus most of the time I'd cruise at 1780 rpm and 26" manifold pressure.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--
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hess737(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:23 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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When Mongoose was brand new I tried both multi and mono grade. I’ve used 100W for 16 years
Richard Hess
C 404-964-4885
[quote] On Jul 29, 2019, at 8:58 AM, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:
We feel strongly that these engines are not designed for modern multigrade oils, and whatever the nominal viscosity might be, they are definitely far thinner, particularly when hot, than mono-grade oils. And this definitely leads to oil leaks.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JEREMY KEYES
Sent: 29 July 2019 12:48
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
We use the same Aeroshell 100 Plus in the CJ. After talking with a number of folks we decided to make the switch and it’s seems to well. I have noticed less oil leaks as well but we also recently changed mechanics and did an extra through annual.
On Jul 29, 2019, at 4:54 AM, "cjpilot710(at)aol.com" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com> wrote:
I used Aeroshell 100 Plus year around in my M-14 with regular changes at 40 hours. Each time I used a multi-grade I got oil leaks. I found on opening my engine (top over hauls to zero overhauls) the inside looked and was fairly clean. Might note though, with the exception of OSH trips, I flew mostly in the Florida skies. Plus most of the time I'd cruise at 1780 rpm and 26" manifold pressure.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--
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draftsjust417(at)gmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:31 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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Good info, thanks gents!
On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 6:03 AM Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
I see no problem with X/C 25W60 year round. That is the advantage of a
multi-grade. Just stay to hell away from Aeroshell semi-synthetic W15W50.
Walt
--
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:47 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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Hi Richard;
You are quite likely referring here to automotive oils which are far too thin for use in any aircraft engine and, in any case, must never be used due to the potential for pre-ignition in an air-cooled engine.
As far as I’m aware there are are only two companies producing an approved aviation multi-grade oil (I’m sure if there are more I will soon become aware!). They are Phillips with their X/C 20W50 and X/C 25W60 (Radial) petroleum based oil and Aeroshell with their semi-synthetic W15W50.
I’m sure if you go to the above companies websites you will find a description of how a multi-grade works in service. It is not quite as you describe.
You are describing a non multi-grade oil which is far thinner when hot. The multi-grade is far thinner when cold (first viscosity number). With increasing temperature the multi-grade does not get “thicker” as some postulate but will get thinner at a greatly reduced rate compared to a non multi oil with the result being the second viscosity number is reached at the operating temperature for both oils. If you could view this on a graph you would see the non multi viscosity reducing sharply with increasing temperature while the multi-grade gets there in virtually a straight line.
I believe the X/C 25W60 is a good choice for the M14P if you want the convenience but no better than a seasonal change from 100 to 120 AD oils.
With the exception of the above Aeroshell product I can pretty much guarantee the leakage problem has little or nothing to do with the choice of oil.
Best;
Walt
From: Richard Goode (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 5:58 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
We feel strongly that these engines are not designed for modern multigrade oils, and whatever the nominal viscosity might be, they are definitely far thinner, particularly when hot, than mono-grade oils. And this definitely leads to oil leaks.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JEREMY KEYES
Sent: 29 July 2019 12:48
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
We use the same Aeroshell 100 Plus in the CJ. After talking with a number of folks we decided to make the switch and it’s seems to well. I have noticed less oil leaks as well but we also recently changed mechanics and did an extra through annual.
On Jul 29, 2019, at 4:54 AM, "cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I used Aeroshell 100 Plus year around in my M-14 with regular changes at 40 hours. Each time I used a multi-grade I got oil leaks. I found on opening my engine (top over hauls to zero overhauls) the inside looked and was fairly clean. Might note though, with the exception of OSH trips, I flew mostly in the Florida skies. Plus most of the time I'd cruise at 1780 rpm and 26" manifold pressure.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
To: yak-list <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Sun, Jul 28, 2019 9:29 pm
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
I see no problem with X/C 25W60 year round. That is the advantage of a
multi-grade. Just stay to hell away from Aeroshell semi-synthetic W15W50.
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Boede
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2019 1:21 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
--> Yak-List message posted by: Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)>
25W50 in the winter, radial 120 in the summer.
| Quote: | Ok CJ6-ers, at least those of you with the Housai engines...
|
| Quote: | Which is your preferred oil, Phillips X/C 20W-50, or their 25W-60?
|
| Quote: | (I've been using 20W-50 in Seattle w/o issues, but perhaps the 25W-60 is
|
| Quote: | Thoughts, experiences?
|
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heaysr(at)telus.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:51 pm Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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Ladies & Gents
Jill has on several occasions given her views on this list on the use of Aeroshell W100 vs Philips 25W60 in the M14P engines.
She comes down on the side of Aeroshell with good reasons given. Try and search on the list to see her previous posts.
That was before Shell launched the Plus version, which by all accounts now obviates the need for supplementing Aeroshell W100 with CamGuard.
Jill’s W100 recommendation extends to W80 and W120, depending on the season and your location.
Jill, do you have anything to add or correct?
Regards
Royden
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 11:47 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hi Richard;
You are quite likely referring here to automotive oils which are far too thin for use in any aircraft engine and, in any case, must never be used due to the potential for pre-ignition in an air-cooled engine.
As far as I’m aware there are are only two companies producing an approved aviation multi-grade oil (I’m sure if there are more I will soon become aware!). They are Phillips with their X/C 20W50 and X/C 25W60 (Radial) petroleum based oil and Aeroshell with their semi-synthetic W15W50.
I’m sure if you go to the above companies websites you will find a description of how a multi-grade works in service. It is not quite as you describe.
You are describing a non multi-grade oil which is far thinner when hot. The multi-grade is far thinner when cold (first viscosity number). With increasing temperature the multi-grade does not get “thicker” as some postulate but will get thinner at a greatly reduced rate compared to a non multi oil with the result being the second viscosity number is reached at the operating temperature for both oils. If you could view this on a graph you would see the non multi viscosity reducing sharply with increasing temperature while the multi-grade gets there in virtually a straight line.
I believe the X/C 25W60 is a good choice for the M14P if you want the convenience but no better than a seasonal change from 100 to 120 AD oils.
With the exception of the above Aeroshell product I can pretty much guarantee the leakage problem has little or nothing to do with the choice of oil.
Best;
Walt
From: Richard Goode (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 5:58 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
We feel strongly that these engines are not designed for modern multigrade oils, and whatever the nominal viscosity might be, they are definitely far thinner, particularly when hot, than mono-grade oils. And this definitely leads to oil leaks.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of JEREMY KEYES
Sent: 29 July 2019 12:48
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
We use the same Aeroshell 100 Plus in the CJ. After talking with a number of folks we decided to make the switch and it’s seems to well. I have noticed less oil leaks as well but we also recently changed mechanics and did an extra through annual.
On Jul 29, 2019, at 4:54 AM, "cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote]
I used Aeroshell 100 Plus year around in my M-14 with regular changes at 40 hours. Each time I used a multi-grade I got oil leaks. I found on opening my engine (top over hauls to zero overhauls) the inside looked and was fairly clean. Might note though, with the exception of OSH trips, I flew mostly in the Florida skies. Plus most of the time I'd cruise at 1780 rpm and 26" manifold pressure.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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j.mevis(at)computer.org
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:58 pm Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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Aeroshell does not recommend its W15W50 for radials.
I tried to upload the whole powerpoint but the matronics-list refuses doing that.
BR,
Jan
From: <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Royden Heays <heaysr(at)telus.net>
Reply to: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, 30 July 2019 at 05:56
To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Ladies & Gents
Jill has on several occasions given her views on this list on the use of Aeroshell W100 vs Philips 25W60 in the M14P engines.
She comes down on the side of Aeroshell with good reasons given. Try and search on the list to see her previous posts.
That was before Shell launched the Plus version, which by all accounts now obviates the need for supplementing Aeroshell W100 with CamGuard.
Jill’s W100 recommendation extends to W80 and W120, depending on the season and your location.
Jill, do you have anything to add or correct?
Regards
Royden
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 11:47 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hi Richard;
You are quite likely referring here to automotive oils which are far too thin for use in any aircraft engine and, in any case, must never be used due to the potential for pre-ignition in an air-cooled engine.
As far as I’m aware there are are only two companies producing an approved aviation multi-grade oil (I’m sure if there are more I will soon become aware!). They are Phillips with their X/C 20W50 and X/C 25W60 (Radial) petroleum based oil and Aeroshell with their semi-synthetic W15W50.
I’m sure if you go to the above companies websites you will find a description of how a multi-grade works in service. It is not quite as you describe.
You are describing a non multi-grade oil which is far thinner when hot. The multi-grade is far thinner when cold (first viscosity number). With increasing temperature the multi-grade does not get “thicker” as some postulate but will get thinner at a greatly reduced rate compared to a non multi oil with the result being the second viscosity number is reached at the operating temperature for both oils. If you could view this on a graph you would see the non multi viscosity reducing sharply with increasing temperature while the multi-grade gets there in virtually a straight line.
I believe the X/C 25W60 is a good choice for the M14P if you want the convenience but no better than a seasonal change from 100 to 120 AD oils.
With the exception of the above Aeroshell product I can pretty much guarantee the leakage problem has little or nothing to do with the choice of oil.
Best;
Walt
From: Richard Goode (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 5:58 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
We feel strongly that these engines are not designed for modern multigrade oils, and whatever the nominal viscosity might be, they are definitely far thinner, particularly when hot, than mono-grade oils. And this definitely leads to oil leaks.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of JEREMY KEYES
Sent: 29 July 2019 12:48
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
We use the same Aeroshell 100 Plus in the CJ. After talking with a number of folks we decided to make the switch and it’s seems to well. I have noticed less oil leaks as well but we also recently changed mechanics and did an extra through annual.
On Jul 29, 2019, at 4:54 AM, "cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote]
I used Aeroshell 100 Plus year around in my M-14 with regular changes at 40 hours. Each time I used a multi-grade I got oil leaks. I found on opening my engine (top over hauls to zero overhauls) the inside looked and was fairly clean. Might note though, with the exception of OSH trips, I flew mostly in the Florida skies. Plus most of the time I'd cruise at 1780 rpm and 26" manifold pressure.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--
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j.mevis(at)computer.org
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:15 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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You can download the Aeroshell book on:
https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/knowledge-centre/the-aeroshell-book/_jcr_content/par/textimage_1433441235.stream/1445039847869/64a1a7d0fdadb6377a29d795dc9583e7c30e12b3/theaeroshellbook.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,581,149
It’s all well explained in this book.
BR,
Jan
From: <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Jan Mevis <j.mevis(at)computer.org>
Reply to: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, 30 July 2019 at 09:02
To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Aeroshell does not recommend its W15W50 for radials.
I tried to upload the whole powerpoint but the matronics-list refuses doing that.
BR,
Jan
From: <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Royden Heays <heaysr(at)telus.net>
Reply to: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, 30 July 2019 at 05:56
To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Ladies & Gents
Jill has on several occasions given her views on this list on the use of Aeroshell W100 vs Philips 25W60 in the M14P engines.
She comes down on the side of Aeroshell with good reasons given. Try and search on the list to see her previous posts.
That was before Shell launched the Plus version, which by all accounts now obviates the need for supplementing Aeroshell W100 with CamGuard.
Jill’s W100 recommendation extends to W80 and W120, depending on the season and your location.
Jill, do you have anything to add or correct?
Regards
Royden
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 11:47 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hi Richard;
You are quite likely referring here to automotive oils which are far too thin for use in any aircraft engine and, in any case, must never be used due to the potential for pre-ignition in an air-cooled engine.
As far as I’m aware there are are only two companies producing an approved aviation multi-grade oil (I’m sure if there are more I will soon become aware!). They are Phillips with their X/C 20W50 and X/C 25W60 (Radial) petroleum based oil and Aeroshell with their semi-synthetic W15W50.
I’m sure if you go to the above companies websites you will find a description of how a multi-grade works in service. It is not quite as you describe.
You are describing a non multi-grade oil which is far thinner when hot. The multi-grade is far thinner when cold (first viscosity number). With increasing temperature the multi-grade does not get “thicker” as some postulate but will get thinner at a greatly reduced rate compared to a non multi oil with the result being the second viscosity number is reached at the operating temperature for both oils. If you could view this on a graph you would see the non multi viscosity reducing sharply with increasing temperature while the multi-grade gets there in virtually a straight line.
I believe the X/C 25W60 is a good choice for the M14P if you want the convenience but no better than a seasonal change from 100 to 120 AD oils.
With the exception of the above Aeroshell product I can pretty much guarantee the leakage problem has little or nothing to do with the choice of oil.
Best;
Walt
From: Richard Goode (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 5:58 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
We feel strongly that these engines are not designed for modern multigrade oils, and whatever the nominal viscosity might be, they are definitely far thinner, particularly when hot, than mono-grade oils. And this definitely leads to oil leaks.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of JEREMY KEYES
Sent: 29 July 2019 12:48
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
We use the same Aeroshell 100 Plus in the CJ. After talking with a number of folks we decided to make the switch and it’s seems to well. I have noticed less oil leaks as well but we also recently changed mechanics and did an extra through annual.
On Jul 29, 2019, at 4:54 AM, "cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote]
I used Aeroshell 100 Plus year around in my M-14 with regular changes at 40 hours. Each time I used a multi-grade I got oil leaks. I found on opening my engine (top over hauls to zero overhauls) the inside looked and was fairly clean. Might note though, with the exception of OSH trips, I flew mostly in the Florida skies. Plus most of the time I'd cruise at 1780 rpm and 26" manifold pressure.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
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JL2A
Joined: 07 Apr 2015
Posts: 113
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:31 am Post subject: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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I've gone through nearly 200 gallons of X/C 25W-60 in the last 4 years. Seems good to me.
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draftsjust417(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:21 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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Ya thanks all, ran my CJ yesterday with the new batch of 25W-60, all seems fine.Justin
N280NC
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 3:37 AM JL2A <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com (info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "JL2A" <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com (info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com)>
I've gone through nearly 200 gallons of X/C 25W-60 in the last 4 years. Seems good to me.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490805#490805
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:15 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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I have little experience of the Chinese engine, but I have no reason to think that its oil requirements would be significantly different to the M 14 family from Russia. And I did spend a lot of time in Voronezh with the design team of Vedenyeev many years ago, and they were strongly of the view that multigrade oils were not appropriate for their engines. Importantly, they had done quite a lot of testing, and in those days they had the funds to do that. Of course these oils are relatively thin when cold, which is good, but of course the Russians tend to pre-heat and indeed say that preheating is necessary below +5°C anyway. Then, unlike cars, these engines do not get started frequently for short trips when cold.
But their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot, and they felt did not give appropriate lubrication. And also, as I know multigrade users have realised, tend to leak.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Justin Drafts
Sent: 15 August 2019 17:20
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Ya thanks all, ran my CJ yesterday with the new batch of 25W-60, all seems fine.
Justin
N280NC
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 3:37 AM JL2A <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com (info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com)> wrote:
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markbitterlich(at)embarqm
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:13 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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Hello Richard. As you are aware, I typically consider anything you say or recommend regarding “anything Russian” to be above reproach and generally “gospel”. But in regards to this topic I have to respectfully disagree.
You said: “their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot”. I do not know what specific oil the Russians ran their tests on, but oil weight, or viscosity, refers to how thick or thin the oil is and the temperature requirements set for oil by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) is 0 degrees F (low) and 210 degrees F (high).
Oils meeting the SAE's low temperature requirements have a "W" after the viscosity rating (example: 10W), and oils that meet the high ratings have no letter (example SAE 30). An oil is rated for viscosity by heating it to a specified temperature, and then allowing it to flow out of a specifically sized hole. Its viscosity rating is determined by the length of time it takes to flow out of the hole. If it flows quickly, it gets a low rating. If it flows slowly, it gets a high rating.
Since oil generally gets thinner when heated, and thicker when cooled, the multi-viscosity oils were introduced. These oils meet SAE specifications for the low temperature requirements of a light oil and the high temperature requirements of a heavy oil. This is the best of both worlds and is accomplished by using special additives to increase viscosity with an increase in temperature.
Next, I would like to point out that M-14 equipped Russian aircraft typically came stock with an oil dilution system, where raw fuel was pumped into the oil system prior to shutdown in cold weather to massively reduce viscosity on the next cold engine start. This is a highly effective but somewhat dangerous procedure that relies on a lot of variables and I don’t know anyone that recommends it, but clearly it was included due to the lack of multi-grade oil available at the time, and also because it has been a standard method since before WW-II.
Also of significance is that a single weight oil used in a M-14 equipped tail dragger tends to collect oil in the lower intake tubes. This oil will *NOT* be eliminated by pulling the prop through. Without really extensive pre-heating, this “slug” of oil remains a real hazard to hydraulic lock when starting in really cold conditions. If the owner has intake drain tubes, and primes the daylight out of the engine and fuel does NOT run out the intake drain kit, do NOT attempt to start it! You would rolling the dice.
So bottom line, I have used Phillips 20W-60W Radial Engine Oil, for close to 800 hours in my M-14P equipped Yak-50. It does not leak oil, it still has good compression, and it does not build up in the intake tubes anywhere near what a single grade oil will do in cold weather. So, while I respect Russian testing, I’d like to see their specific results, regarding what oil they tested and how. Since I realize those documents are probably impossible to publish, I’ll just offer that there is nothing wrong with multi-viscosity oils and they are specifically formulated to not get thinner at high temperature, and in fact are tested to meet specific standards as not to do that. My 2 cents, in this case about $1 worth.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 2:14 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
I have little experience of the Chinese engine, but I have no reason to think that its oil requirements would be significantly different to the M 14 family from Russia. And I did spend a lot of time in Voronezh with the design team of Vedenyeev many years ago, and they were strongly of the view that multigrade oils were not appropriate for their engines. Importantly, they had done quite a lot of testing, and in those days they had the funds to do that. Of course these oils are relatively thin when cold, which is good, but of course the Russians tend to pre-heat and indeed say that preheating is necessary below +5°C anyway. Then, unlike cars, these engines do not get started frequently for short trips when cold.
But their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot, and they felt did not give appropriate lubrication. And also, as I know multigrade users have realised, tend to leak.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Justin Drafts
Sent: 15 August 2019 17:20
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Ya thanks all, ran my CJ yesterday with the new batch of 25W-60, all seems fine.
Justin
N280NC
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 3:37 AM JL2A <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com (info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com)> wrote:
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richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:08 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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I don't disagree with anything that Mark says, but would briefly say:
The Russians never used the oil dilution systems in Yaks for all sorts of good reasons and typically they were disconnected as soon as the aircraft were delivered to flying clubs!
My experience working with Vedenyeev was some time ago, and of course oils have improved since then. But the point of their research was that W 120 was definitely thicker/more viscous at high temperature than a 20 W-60 W. multigrade. Possibly that is not true with current generation of oils.
Anyone who does not have a manifold oil drain system in one of these engines, particularly a tail-dragger is seriously chancing the health of their engine!
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Bitterlich
Sent: 15 August 2019 20:12
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hello Richard. As you are aware, I typically consider anything you say or recommend regarding “anything Russian” to be above reproach and generally “gospel”. But in regards to this topic I have to respectfully disagree.
You said: “their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot”. I do not know what specific oil the Russians ran their tests on, but oil weight, or viscosity, refers to how thick or thin the oil is and the temperature requirements set for oil by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) is 0 degrees F (low) and 210 degrees F (high).
Oils meeting the SAE's low temperature requirements have a "W" after the viscosity rating (example: 10W), and oils that meet the high ratings have no letter (example SAE 30). An oil is rated for viscosity by heating it to a specified temperature, and then allowing it to flow out of a specifically sized hole. Its viscosity rating is determined by the length of time it takes to flow out of the hole. If it flows quickly, it gets a low rating. If it flows slowly, it gets a high rating.
Since oil generally gets thinner when heated, and thicker when cooled, the multi-viscosity oils were introduced. These oils meet SAE specifications for the low temperature requirements of a light oil and the high temperature requirements of a heavy oil. This is the best of both worlds and is accomplished by using special additives to increase viscosity with an increase in temperature.
Next, I would like to point out that M-14 equipped Russian aircraft typically came stock with an oil dilution system, where raw fuel was pumped into the oil system prior to shutdown in cold weather to massively reduce viscosity on the next cold engine start. This is a highly effective but somewhat dangerous procedure that relies on a lot of variables and I don’t know anyone that recommends it, but clearly it was included due to the lack of multi-grade oil available at the time, and also because it has been a standard method since before WW-II.
Also of significance is that a single weight oil used in a M-14 equipped tail dragger tends to collect oil in the lower intake tubes. This oil will *NOT* be eliminated by pulling the prop through. Without really extensive pre-heating, this “slug” of oil remains a real hazard to hydraulic lock when starting in really cold conditions. If the owner has intake drain tubes, and primes the daylight out of the engine and fuel does NOT run out the intake drain kit, do NOT attempt to start it! You would rolling the dice.
So bottom line, I have used Phillips 20W-60W Radial Engine Oil, for close to 800 hours in my M-14P equipped Yak-50. It does not leak oil, it still has good compression, and it does not build up in the intake tubes anywhere near what a single grade oil will do in cold weather. So, while I respect Russian testing, I’d like to see their specific results, regarding what oil they tested and how. Since I realize those documents are probably impossible to publish, I’ll just offer that there is nothing wrong with multi-viscosity oils and they are specifically formulated to not get thinner at high temperature, and in fact are tested to meet specific standards as not to do that. My 2 cents, in this case about $1 worth.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 2:14 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
I have little experience of the Chinese engine, but I have no reason to think that its oil requirements would be significantly different to the M 14 family from Russia. And I did spend a lot of time in Voronezh with the design team of Vedenyeev many years ago, and they were strongly of the view that multigrade oils were not appropriate for their engines. Importantly, they had done quite a lot of testing, and in those days they had the funds to do that. Of course these oils are relatively thin when cold, which is good, but of course the Russians tend to pre-heat and indeed say that preheating is necessary below +5°C anyway. Then, unlike cars, these engines do not get started frequently for short trips when cold.
But their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot, and they felt did not give appropriate lubrication. And also, as I know multigrade users have realised, tend to leak.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Justin Drafts
Sent: 15 August 2019 17:20
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Ya thanks all, ran my CJ yesterday with the new batch of 25W-60, all seems fine.
Justin
N280NC
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 3:37 AM JL2A <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com (info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com)> wrote:
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:50 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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Hi Mark & Richard;
I too have been wondering which multi-grade oils the Russians used in their M14P testing. Is there a Russian aviation approved multi-grade oil available or were the tests done with US manufactured products?
If the latter there are only two companies manufacturing this product for aviation use: Phillips with two grades and Aeroshell with a single product. To the best of my knowledge these are the only approved aviation multi-grade oils manufactured anywhere in the world.
From long experience I many years ago came to the conclusion that the Aeroshell W15W50 product should not be used in a radial engine. In those days it was referred
to as 15W50. Aeroshell have been tinkering with the formula for years and have made improvements (extra “W”?) so possibly it is now acceptable. But not for me.
I have been using the Phillips products basically since they came on the market. X/C 25W60 for the radials P&W R985, R1340 and, in later years the Huosai and M14P. I think the X/C 20W50 would be OK for the Huosai but would recommend the 25W60 for the M14P due to higher temps. For my own Huosai however I have been using 25W60 just cause!
You mentioned “Oil Dilution”. That was a wonderful thing in the arctic from the early 1940’s. It was developed for aviation use in the 1930’s by a Canadian aircraft mechanic by the name of Tommy Siers. He spent most of his early years in the Arctic and noticed truckers pouring gas in their oil tanks. The light came on and he went to work. It took until 1939 until it was finally approved for use and was immediately picked up by the US military and the rest of the world. He won the 1940 McKee Trophy for the best Canadian advancement to aviation.
Tommy was the Director of Maintenance and my first boss in the aviation world of 1951.
In more recent years I have removed the system from every T6, Harvard and CJ that I have licensed. In our aircraft types it is now just a potential hazard for the unwary.
Walt
From: Mark Bitterlich (markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:12 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hello Richard. As you are aware, I typically consider anything you say or recommend regarding “anything Russian” to be above reproach and generally “gospel”. But in regards to this topic I have to respectfully disagree.
You said: “their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot”. I do not know what specific oil the Russians ran their tests on, but oil weight, or viscosity, refers to how thick or thin the oil is and the temperature requirements set for oil by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) is 0 degrees F (low) and 210 degrees F (high).
Oils meeting the SAE's low temperature requirements have a "W" after the viscosity rating (example: 10W), and oils that meet the high ratings have no letter (example SAE 30). An oil is rated for viscosity by heating it to a specified temperature, and then allowing it to flow out of a specifically sized hole. Its viscosity rating is determined by the length of time it takes to flow out of the hole. If it flows quickly, it gets a low rating. If it flows slowly, it gets a high rating.
Since oil generally gets thinner when heated, and thicker when cooled, the multi-viscosity oils were introduced. These oils meet SAE specifications for the low temperature requirements of a light oil and the high temperature requirements of a heavy oil. This is the best of both worlds and is accomplished by using special additives to increase viscosity with an increase in temperature.
Next, I would like to point out that M-14 equipped Russian aircraft typically came stock with an oil dilution system, where raw fuel was pumped into the oil system prior to shutdown in cold weather to massively reduce viscosity on the next cold engine start. This is a highly effective but somewhat dangerous procedure that relies on a lot of variables and I don’t know anyone that recommends it, but clearly it was included due to the lack of multi-grade oil available at the time, and also because it has been a standard method since before WW-II.
Also of significance is that a single weight oil used in a M-14 equipped tail dragger tends to collect oil in the lower intake tubes. This oil will *NOT* be eliminated by pulling the prop through. Without really extensive pre-heating, this “slug” of oil remains a real hazard to hydraulic lock when starting in really cold conditions. If the owner has intake drain tubes, and primes the daylight out of the engine and fuel does NOT run out the intake drain kit, do NOT attempt to start it! You would rolling the dice.
So bottom line, I have used Phillips 20W-60W Radial Engine Oil, for close to 800 hours in my M-14P equipped Yak-50. It does not leak oil, it still has good compression, and it does not build up in the intake tubes anywhere near what a single grade oil will do in cold weather. So, while I respect Russian testing, I’d like to see their specific results, regarding what oil they tested and how. Since I realize those documents are probably impossible to publish, I’ll just offer that there is nothing wrong with multi-viscosity oils and they are specifically formulated to not get thinner at high temperature, and in fact are tested to meet specific standards as not to do that. My 2 cents, in this case about $1 worth.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 2:14 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
I have little experience of the Chinese engine, but I have no reason to think that its oil requirements would be significantly different to the M 14 family from Russia. And I did spend a lot of time in Voronezh with the design team of Vedenyeev many years ago, and they were strongly of the view that multigrade oils were not appropriate for their engines. Importantly, they had done quite a lot of testing, and in those days they had the funds to do that. Of course these oils are relatively thin when cold, which is good, but of course the Russians tend to pre-heat and indeed say that preheating is necessary below +5°C anyway. Then, unlike cars, these engines do not get started frequently for short trips when cold.
But their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot, and they felt did not give appropriate lubrication. And also, as I know multigrade users have realised, tend to leak.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Justin Drafts
Sent: 15 August 2019 17:20
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Ya thanks all, ran my CJ yesterday with the new batch of 25W-60, all seems fine.
Justin
N280NC
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 3:37 AM JL2A <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com (info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com)> wrote:
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rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:49 am Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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Guys,
Whatever the bottom line / best procedure is, THANK YOU for this wealth of information and super-interesting read! THIS is the true value of the Yaklist to me. May I also applaud the professionalism you employ as you each present your points and cases? So refreshing no one felt the need to belittle or berate - but simply to persuade & educate. I am a humble high school music teacher whom is lucky enough to fly a Red Star aircraft - a skill set well-outside my inherent abilities graciously granted by good musical genes. But I bet I speak for others when I say: impressive knowledge base that you gents bring to the table. Please keep it up! You make this great past time safer, more rewarding and more respectable.
I will continue to read and absorb in silence. But if things ever crank up over 8th note triplets, how Ed Van Halen changed the guitar world forever or the value of learning a musical instrument when attempting to attract the fairer sex...I AM HERE FOR YA!
And THAT...is my $.02. (Which - sadly, no longer buys a gumball)
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Mark & Richard;
I too have been wondering which multi-grade oils the Russians used in their M14P testing. Is there a Russian aviation approved multi-grade oil available or were the tests done with US manufactured products?
If the latter there are only two companies manufacturing this product for aviation use: Phillips with two grades and Aeroshell with a single product. To the best of my knowledge these are the only approved aviation multi-grade oils manufactured anywhere in the world.
From long experience I many years ago came to the conclusion that the Aeroshell W15W50 product should not be used in a radial engine. In those days it was referred
to as 15W50. Aeroshell have been tinkering with the formula for years and have made improvements (extra “W”?) so possibly it is now acceptable. But not for me.
I have been using the Phillips products basically since they came on the market. X/C 25W60 for the radials P&W R985, R1340 and, in later years the Huosai and M14P. I think the X/C 20W50 would be OK for the Huosai but would recommend the 25W60 for the M14P due to higher temps. For my own Huosai however I have been using 25W60 just cause!
You mentioned “Oil Dilution”. That was a wonderful thing in the arctic from the early 1940’s. It was developed for aviation use in the 1930’s by a Canadian aircraft mechanic by the name of Tommy Siers. He spent most of his early years in the Arctic and noticed truckers pouring gas in their oil tanks. The light came on and he went to work. It took until 1939 until it was finally approved for use and was immediately picked up by the US military and the rest of the world. He won the 1940 McKee Trophy for the best Canadian advancement to aviation.
Tommy was the Director of Maintenance and my first boss in the aviation world of 1951.
In more recent years I have removed the system from every T6, Harvard and CJ that I have licensed. In our aircraft types it is now just a potential hazard for the unwary.
Walt
From: Mark Bitterlich (markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:12 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hello Richard. As you are aware, I typically consider anything you say or recommend regarding “anything Russian” to be above reproach and generally “gospel”. But in regards to this topic I have to respectfully disagree.
You said: “their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot”. I do not know what specific oil the Russians ran their tests on, but oil weight, or viscosity, refers to how thick or thin the oil is and the temperature requirements set for oil by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) is 0 degrees F (low) and 210 degrees F (high).
Oils meeting the SAE's low temperature requirements have a "W" after the viscosity rating (example: 10W), and oils that meet the high ratings have no letter (example SAE 30). An oil is rated for viscosity by heating it to a specified temperature, and then allowing it to flow out of a specifically sized hole. Its viscosity rating is determined by the length of time it takes to flow out of the hole. If it flows quickly, it gets a low rating. If it flows slowly, it gets a high rating.
Since oil generally gets thinner when heated, and thicker when cooled, the multi-viscosity oils were introduced. These oils meet SAE specifications for the low temperature requirements of a light oil and the high temperature requirements of a heavy oil. This is the best of both worlds and is accomplished by using special additives to increase viscosity with an increase in temperature.
Next, I would like to point out that M-14 equipped Russian aircraft typically came stock with an oil dilution system, where raw fuel was pumped into the oil system prior to shutdown in cold weather to massively reduce viscosity on the next cold engine start. This is a highly effective but somewhat dangerous procedure that relies on a lot of variables and I don’t know anyone that recommends it, but clearly it was included due to the lack of multi-grade oil available at the time, and also because it has been a standard method since before WW-II.
Also of significance is that a single weight oil used in a M-14 equipped tail dragger tends to collect oil in the lower intake tubes. This oil will *NOT* be eliminated by pulling the prop through. Without really extensive pre-heating, this “slug” of oil remains a real hazard to hydraulic lock when starting in really cold conditions. If the owner has intake drain tubes, and primes the daylight out of the engine and fuel does NOT run out the intake drain kit, do NOT attempt to start it! You would rolling the dice.
So bottom line, I have used Phillips 20W-60W Radial Engine Oil, for close to 800 hours in my M-14P equipped Yak-50. It does not leak oil, it still has good compression, and it does not build up in the intake tubes anywhere near what a single grade oil will do in cold weather. So, while I respect Russian testing, I’d like to see their specific results, regarding what oil they tested and how. Since I realize those documents are probably impossible to publish, I’ll just offer that there is nothing wrong with multi-viscosity oils and they are specifically formulated to not get thinner at high temperature, and in fact are tested to meet specific standards as not to do that. My 2 cents, in this case about $1 worth.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 2:14 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
I have little experience of the Chinese engine, but I have no reason to think that its oil requirements would be significantly different to the M 14 family from Russia. And I did spend a lot of time in Voronezh with the design team of Vedenyeev many years ago, and they were strongly of the view that multigrade oils were not appropriate for their engines. Importantly, they had done quite a lot of testing, and in those days they had the funds to do that. Of course these oils are relatively thin when cold, which is good, but of course the Russians tend to pre-heat and indeed say that preheating is necessary below +5°C anyway. Then, unlike cars, these engines do not get started frequently for short trips when cold.
But their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot, and they felt did not give appropriate lubrication. And also, as I know multigrade users have realised, tend to leak.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Justin Drafts
Sent: 15 August 2019 17:20
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Ya thanks all, ran my CJ yesterday with the new batch of 25W-60, all seems fine.
Justin
N280NC
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 3:37 AM JL2A <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com (info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com)> wrote:
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]
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