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Artifical Horizon

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Steve Glasgow

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 674

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:13 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Does anyone know of an Artificial Horizon that does not use a gyro.  Something solid state similar to the new EFIS systems but that fits in a standard instrument hole.  Too much acro has killed my Ray Allen Electric Artificial Horizon.

_________________
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG

deruiteraircraftservices(
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:42 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Hi, the dynon I believe fits in a 3 1/8" hole although it overhangs the hole 

considerably.

As a matter of interest, do or did you never switch the gyro off before 

doing aero's? and another one: how much G would you pull in a regular 

session?



Marcel



---

Steve Glasgow

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 674

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:35 am Post subject: Re: Artifical Horizon

It was always on.  I told it doesn't make any difference.  Even caged there is still ware on bearings when doing acro. 



I knew about the Dynon but it overlaps.

_________________
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG

Larry Bowen

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 802
Location: NC, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Maybe install blanks over the holes at 3 and 9 o'clock, and keep your

favorite backup guages at 5, 6 and 7 o'clock?  Or would the Dynon overlap

all of the remaining five holes?



-- 

Larry Bowen

Larry(at)BowenAero.com

http://BowenAero.com



Steve Glasgow said:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It was always on.  I told it doesn't make any difference.  Even caged

 there is still ware on bearings when doing acro.



 I knew about the Dynon but it overlaps.



 --------

 Steve Glasgow-Cappy

 Cappy's Toy

 RV-8 N123SG





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4911#4911

_________________
Larry Bowen
RV-8 SOLD,
RV-7QB in progress...

alexpeterson(at)earthlink
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <willfly(at)carolina.rr.com>

 

 It was always on.  I told it doesn't make any difference.  

 Even caged there is still ware on bearings when doing acro. 

 

 I knew about the Dynon but it overlaps.

 

 --------

 Steve Glasgow-Cappy

 Cappy's Toy

 RV-8 N123SG


	


Think about it: it is not reasonable to think that a non-spinning gyro

tumbling in its gimbals does as much damage as when a spinning gyro tries to

drive through the gimbal limits.  Tremendous forces can be generated when a

spinning gyro causes the gimbles to hit their limits.  Caging a spinning

gyro is probably slightly better, but still generates brutal forces compared

to a non spinning gyro.



The only people I've heard say that spinning vs non-spinning is the same

thing are those who make a living repairing them. They are going to have to

put forth a very detailed argument before they convince me.



Does anyone on this list remember the forearm exercising device called the

DynaBee?



Alex Peterson

RV6-A N66AP 705 hours

Maple Grove, MN

jclarkmail(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Steve,



As mentioned, the Dynon D10 and D10A fit in the hole and overhang a little.

You might also consider the offerings from Trutrak.



Not EXACTLY an artificial horizon .... but might do what you want and more.



See these pages  ... http://www.steinair.com/instruments.htm or

http://www.steinair.com/trutrak.htm



or these  ...

http://www.rvtraining.com/html/new_products.html or

http://www.rvtraining.com/html/trutrak_autopilots.html



James



On 1/18/06, Steve Glasgow <willfly(at)carolina.rr.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 Does anyone know of an Artificial Horizon that does not use a

 gyro.  Something solid state similar to the new EFIS systems but that fits

 in a standard instrument hole.  Too much acro has killed my Ray Allen

 Electric Artificial Horizon.



 --------

 Steve Glasgow-Cappy

 Cappy's Toy

 RV-8 N123SG





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D4899#4899




	




--

This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at

james(at)nextupventures.com .

bill(at)vondane.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

PC Flight Systems makes a 2 1/4" solid state horizon gyro...  The only one I 

can think of that is stand alone at the moment...



http://www.pcflightsystems.com/



-Bill VonDane

RV-8A - Colorado Springs

www.rv8a.com

www.creativair.com

www.epanelbuilder.com



---

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Marcel,

 Your instruments must be on 3.75" centers to allow the installation of the Dynon D10 (surface mount). Using a tighter grouping will cause the edge of the Dynon (it protrudes .5" out from the panel) to block your view of the neighboring instruments.

Charlie Kuss



---- RAS <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com> wrote: 

[quote] 

 

 Hi, the dynon I believe fits in a 3 1/8" hole although it overhangs the hole 

 considerably.

 As a matter of interest, do or did you never switch the gyro off before 

 doing aero's? and another one: how much G would you pull in a regular 

 session?

 

 Marcel

 

 ---

flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Did you turn off the AH while done your acro??



Thanks,

Bob

On 1/18/06, Steve Glasgow <willfly(at)carolina.rr.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 Does anyone know of an Artificial Horizon that does not use a

 gyro.  Something solid state similar to the new EFIS systems but that fits

 in a standard instrument hole.  Too much acro has killed my Ray Allen

 Electric Artificial Horizon.



 --------

 Steve Glasgow-Cappy

 Cappy's Toy

 RV-8 N123SG





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D4899#4899

maurv8(at)bresnan.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Check TruTrak  http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/



They have a solid state device called  " ADI ".

Fits 3 1/8 hole and includes a directional display as well.



Mauri Morin

Polson, MT

RV-8 Fuse

---

wdleonard(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: Artifical Horizon

The Bluemountain EIFS lite G3 will fit in a standard hole (I did an easy

retro-fit).  But it has the same problems with protruding and overlapping as

the Dynon.  It is a little more money with alot more features.

Dave Leonard

On 1/18/06, chaztuna(at)adelphia.net <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> wrote:

[quote]

 Marcel,

 Your instruments must be on 3.75" centers to allow the installation of the

 Dynon D10 (surface mount). Using a tighter grouping will cause the edge of

 the Dynon (it protrudes .5" out from the panel) to block your view of the

 neighboring instruments.

 Charlie Kuss

 ---- RAS <deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

 > 

 deruiteraircraftservices(at)btinternet.com>

 >

 > Hi, the dynon I believe fits in a 3 1/8" hole although it overhangs the

 hole

 > considerably.

 > As a matter of interest, do or did you never switch the gyro off before

 > doing aero's? and another one: how much G would you pull in a regular

 > session?

 >

 > Marcel

 >

 > ---

Bill Schlatterer

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: Artifical Horizon

This is probably what you are looking for.  Comes in 2 1/4 or 3 1/8.

 http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html

Bill S

7a Ark



--

hawk(at)digisys.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: Artifical Horizon

The original poster was looking for an Artificial Horizon, and I presume 

that means he wants an instrument that displays aircraft attitude, ideally 

capable of displaying 360 deg in both pitch and roll.   As discussed in Doug 

Reeve's Vans Air Force forum and probably in the RV-List archives, the 

TruTrak ADI can best be conceptualized as a Turn Coordinator with a 

centrally-placed VSI scale.  Like any TC, it is a useful instrument, but the 

TT ADI does not display any attitude data in either pitch or roll.



Hawkeye Hughes

RV-3 / Skyote



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net>



 This is probably what you are looking for.  Comes in 2 1/4 or 3 1/8.

 http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html

 Bill S

 7a Ark


	


[quote] --

jamie(at)jpainter.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Just to nit-pick here.  The ADI does display bank angle...it is not a 

turn coordinator.  Also, it does display pitch data...but only 

instantaneously.  After pitch is stabilized it displays vertical speed.  

The merts of this can be debated but I just wanted to make that clear.



You can read a post by Trutrak on the ADI's functionality here (sorry, 

you'll need to put this link back together):

http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=168489199?KEYS=trutrak_adi?LISTNAME=RV?HITNUMBER=20?SERIAL=0604486227?SHOWBUTTONS=YES



Here's an excerpt:



--



*The roll portion is driven similarly to the pictorial Turn & Bank.  The only 

difference being that it shows bank angle instead of turn rate.  The 

advantage of this is that the instrument uses only instantaneous data.  The 

display cannot drift in shallow turns, and accumulate error as is possible 

with conventional AHRS systems.  It shows bank angles of up to +/- 45 

degrees.  If the bank angle exceeds +/- 30 degrees, flashing red arrows 

point in the direction that the stick needs to be moved to level the 

aircraft.  This was done, because in IMC the objective to stay level or in 

shallow banks.*



**--



do not archive



Jamie D. Painter

http://rv.jpainter.org

hawk(at)digisys.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Jamie,



There are some simple ways to check the TruTrak ADI functionality.  If 

anyone has a unit on their bench, please power it up and then lay it on its 

side and see what happens in this simulation of knife-edge flight. I would 

guess that it might show a transient roll input, then go back to the 'zero 

bank angle' state.  Now hold it up and turn it face down toward the floor, 

simulating the top of a hammerhead.  Again, I presume it will show a 'zero 

pitch, zero roll' display status, the same as level flight.



If someone has a unit flying, please describe the behavior in a 

steady-heading maximum sideslip.  Most types of RVs have enough rudder to 

maintain a constant heading with a roll angle of at least 15 to 20 degrees . 

Under those conditions, I betcha that the TT ADI will display a 'roll angle' 

of zero.



As far as 'pitch' goes, those little lines masquerading as a pitch ladder in 

the center of the display bear no relationship to any pitch angle.  The 

first one is 500 fpm VSI and the second is 1000 fpm, up and down.



I have read Mr. Barker's notes that you refer to in your link below at least 

20 times, and I find I cannot even understand the terms used, let alone 

follow the description of the functional capabilities of the unit.



I would love to see some detailed data from someone who is currently using 

the unit, but as far as I can tell, no matter how hard you look, there is no 

attitude information inside that box.



Hawkeye



 ---

jamie(at)jpainter.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

I agree Hawkeye, sitting the unit on the bench would be a good, simple 

test.  I do suspect though that the instrument will indicate bank 

angle...we'll see.  Hopefully someone can test it and let the list know.



I've tumbled gyros in spam cans doing stalls so I'm not sure that 

peoples' assertions that the ADI is unsafe in extreme attitudes is 

necessarily a disadvantage of the instrument over mechanical gyros.  

That's why traditional AH gyros having caging knobs, useful only in 

straight and level flight.  If they're so accurate, why do they need 

that little knob?   Isn't this one of the reasons why we're taught to 

recover from spins by looking at the TC? 



When recovering from unusual attitudes you look at what first?  The 

airspeed to see if it's increasing or decreasing (to indicate descent or 

climb) and then the AH to determine corrective action necessary to level 

the wings.  So in recovering from an unusual attitude, there is really 

not much difference at all between the ADI and a mechanical gyro 

(assuming of course the ADI really indicates bank). 



That being said, I do wish Trutrak would release a solid-state electric 

attitude indicator.  I think they would sell the hell out of it and I 

would be one of their first customers.



do not archive



Jamie D. Painter

http://rv.jpainter.org

hawk(at)digisys.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Jamie,

Concerning your question stated below...

"When recovering from unusual attitudes you look at what first? "



My basic answer, perhaps biased by a military Tacair background, is:  You 

look at the attitude display to find the location of the sky and dirt so you 

can roll and pull to the nearest horizon.  Just like a VMC recovery, you 

just can't see the outside horizon.  No one is going to recover from a 60 

degree nose-down,150 degree bank situation in the goo without a good 

attitude display.



An instrument that displays attitude or flightpath information to the pilot 

must have three critical characteristics:



1. The displayed relationship between the aircraft symbol and the display 

horizon must ALWAYS be veridical in both bank and pitch to that of the 

aircraft to the actual (local-level) horizon.



2. The depiction of the sky-ground interface should never "go-away" (that 

is, disappear from the pilot's  field-of-view) on a panel mounted attitude 

display.  As you pull the nose through +90 degrees of pitch, the horizon 

representation (now upside down) should appear at the top of the display as 

soon as it goes away at the bottom.  You should never be left with all sky 

or all ground on the display.



3. The mechanism to generate the display must be as close to Non-Tumbling as 

possible.  With new solid state components, this aspect should improve 

dramatically, since the incorporation of finicky and fragile mechanical 

links are eliminated.



Ed Holyoke just reported to the list that he felt that the TT ADI may well 

provide actual roll angle information up to some limit (perhaps 30 deg with 

a 45 degree 'helper cue' arrow?) .  That will provide more positive support 

to help recover from mild to moderate upsets, but there is just no 

substitute for an all-aspect attitude display.



Regards,

Hawkeye



---

Doug Gray

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: Artifical Horizon

These requirements would probably only be satisfied by a milspec AH. I doubt any of the commonly 

available digital or vac units would come close.  A vac unit fails all three.



Watch out for the verdigals though!



REHughes wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Jamie,

 Concerning your question stated below...

 "When recovering from unusual attitudes you look at what first? "

 

 My basic answer, perhaps biased by a military Tacair background, is:  You 

 look at the attitude display to find the location of the sky and dirt so you 

 can roll and pull to the nearest horizon.  Just like a VMC recovery, you 

 just can't see the outside horizon.  No one is going to recover from a 60 

 degree nose-down,150 degree bank situation in the goo without a good 

 attitude display.

 

 An instrument that displays attitude or flightpath information to the pilot 

 must have three critical characteristics:

 

 1. The displayed relationship between the aircraft symbol and the display 

 horizon must ALWAYS be veridical in both bank and pitch to that of the 

 aircraft to the actual (local-level) horizon.

 

 2. The depiction of the sky-ground interface should never "go-away" (that 

 is, disappear from the pilot's  field-of-view) on a panel mounted attitude 

 display.  As you pull the nose through +90 degrees of pitch, the horizon 

 representation (now upside down) should appear at the top of the display as 

 soon as it goes away at the bottom.  You should never be left with all sky 

 or all ground on the display.

 

 3. The mechanism to generate the display must be as close to Non-Tumbling as 

 possible.  With new solid state components, this aspect should improve 

 dramatically, since the incorporation of finicky and fragile mechanical 

 links are eliminated.

 

 Ed Holyoke just reported to the list that he felt that the TT ADI may well 

 provide actual roll angle information up to some limit (perhaps 30 deg with 

 a 45 degree 'helper cue' arrow?) .  That will provide more positive support 

 to help recover from mild to moderate upsets, but there is just no 

 substitute for an all-aspect attitude display.

 

 Regards,

 Hawkeye

 

 ---

hawk(at)digisys.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: Artifical Horizon

Doug,



The performance of the Dynon looks pretty good.  It covers 360 degrees of 

roll and pitch and the Horizon is always visible.  Performance is sensitive 

to high roll and pitch rates (the screen background goes gray but degraded 

data is still displayed) but many Unusual Attitudes in IMC occur at fairly 

slow rates, frequently because the pilot was diverting attention to some 

other task.



It would be nice to get some performance reports from folks who have been 

flying the various EFIS units now available.



Hawkeye



---

corey.crawford(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: Artifical Horizon

I know this isn't a solid-state instrument, but I ran into this electric,

battery backed-up gyro in a blurb in AOPA Pilot:



  http://www.lifesavergyro.com/



They also have a mini electric gyro:



 http://www.mcico.com/master1.html?whatsnew.html&1



Thought it might interest someone..



--

Corey Crawford

corey.crawford(at)gmail.com

Building an RV-7A in Denver, CO

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