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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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 Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:26 am Post subject: Z-12 current sensor options |
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At 07:52 PM 1/21/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | Gentlemen: planning a Z-12 -based dual alternator and single battery but with both alternator outputs paralleled into the 60A shunt and eliminating the Hall effect sensor for the standby alternator B-lead. The panel builder is politely suggesting I will be happier if I keep two independent current monitoring channels in place. Please review my missive to him and see if I am overlooking anything. Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>
Plan (1) - Wired using one each Shunt and Hall channels: 60A alternator is regulated at 14.4V. Adequate for all possible loads, it always outputs through the shunt and its current shows on the EFIS in that channel. 20A standby alternator is regulated at 13.0V. The Hall effect sensor reads zero current on the EFIS basically forever - not a very informative data channel on the EFIS. The day the primary alternator breaks a belt, the shunt current drops to zero, the Hall sensor shows alternator output from the standby, and the bus voltage drops quickly to ~13V as the standby alternator takes the load. Â
Plan (2) - Both alternators feeding through the shunt in parallel, no Hall sensor:  Shunt shows combined output current from both alternators, which is always 100% primary alternator, 0% from standby (because it's regulated to 13 volts into a bus that's already at 14.4V). If the primary alternator ever fails, then the shunt current reading is 100% from the standby alternator. The bus voltage drops to ~13V which is the immediate clue the primary alternator is off-line. Â
This same behavior allows testing the alternators separately at any time the engine is running by switching off their field supplies one at a time and observing: current in scenario (1) or bus voltage in scenario (2).  The shunt in (2) reads system loads regardless of which alternator is doing the work. The Hall in (1) reads zero except when a failure or test occurs. This just means the pilot has to look at a new EFIS channel to see current if the main fails. Â
In Plan (1), either the shunt or the Hall will always read zero. In plan (2), the shunt will always read current from one or the other alternator, but never both - and bus voltage is the indicator of which alternator is doing the work. Â
Not sure a Hall sensor that reads zero in normal operations and only tells me current that the shunt in (2) would show me just as well in a failure scenario is worth buying and wiring in.  |
Current values observed in flight have very
little significance in terms of low risk
conduct of the mission.
An artfully conducted FMEA and load analysis
during the construction phase will confirm
(1) adequate energy sources for all phases
of flight and (2) no single failure of
a system component will put the mission
at risk.
In other words, CURRENT values that
present during any phase or failure condition
are already known. The critical operational
parameter is bus voltage wherein one is
notified that the alternator in service IS
or IS NOT supporting the bus at or above
battery discharge voltage.
Hence, active notification of LOW VOLTS
is the single system parameter that drives
decisions between plan-A, plan-B, plan-C,
etc.
If you anticipate two alternators, then
make one of them a standby machine that is
MANUALLY selected at such time the main
alternator is unable to keep the voltage
up. Plan-B is turn OFF main alternator,
turn ON standby alternator. Auto-switching
of the standby alternator adds minimal value
for risk reduction while significantly
adding cost.
BOTH B-leads can share a hall effect
current sensor as illustrated in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf
A single EFIS channel can be utilized
to monitor both alternators . . . but
understand that numbers displayed by this
feature are incidental to the fact that
system voltage IS or IS NOT adequate to
prevent discharging the battery. If the
voltage IS NOT adequate, then go to plan-C.
One sensor is adequate and useful
only during system diagnosis flight
or ground testing.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:27 am Post subject: Z-12 current sensor options |
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|
At 07:52 PM 1/21/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | Gentlemen: planning a Z-12 -based dual alternator and single battery but with both alternator outputs paralleled into the 60A shunt and eliminating the Hall effect sensor for the standby alternator B-lead. The panel builder is politely suggesting I will be happier if I keep two independent current monitoring channels in place. Please review my missive to him and see if I am overlooking anything. Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>
Plan (1) - Wired using one each Shunt and Hall channels: 60A alternator is regulated at 14.4V. Adequate for all possible loads, it always outputs through the shunt and its current shows on the EFIS in that channel. 20A standby alternator is regulated at 13.0V. The Hall effect sensor reads zero current on the EFIS basically forever - not a very informative data channel on the EFIS. The day the primary alternator breaks a belt, the shunt current drops to zero, the Hall sensor shows alternator output from the standby, and the bus voltage drops quickly to ~13V as the standby alternator takes the load. Â
Plan (2) - Both alternators feeding through the shunt in parallel, no Hall sensor:  Shunt shows combined output current from both alternators, which is always 100% primary alternator, 0% from standby (because it's regulated to 13 volts into a bus that's already at 14.4V). If the primary alternator ever fails, then the shunt current reading is 100% from the standby alternator. The bus voltage drops to ~13V which is the immediate clue the primary alternator is off-line. Â
This same behavior allows testing the alternators separately at any time the engine is running by switching off their field supplies one at a time and observing: current in scenario (1) or bus voltage in scenario (2).  The shunt in (2) reads system loads regardless of which alternator is doing the work. The Hall in (1) reads zero except when a failure or test occurs. This just means the pilot has to look at a new EFIS channel to see current if the main fails. Â
In Plan (1), either the shunt or the Hall will always read zero. In plan (2), the shunt will always read current from one or the other alternator, but never both - and bus voltage is the indicator of which alternator is doing the work. Â
Not sure a Hall sensor that reads zero in normal operations and only tells me current that the shunt in (2) would show me just as well in a failure scenario is worth buying and wiring in.  |
Current values observed in flight have very
little significance in terms of low risk
conduct of the mission.
An artfully conducted FMEA and load analysis
during the construction phase will confirm
(1) adequate energy sources for all phases
of flight and (2) no single failure of
a system component will put the mission
at risk.
In other words, CURRENT values that
present during any phase or failure condition
are already known. The critical operational
parameter is bus voltage wherein one is
notified that the alternator in service IS
or IS NOT supporting the bus at or above
battery discharge voltage.
Hence, active notification of LOW VOLTS
is the single system parameter that drives
decisions between plan-A, plan-B, plan-C,
etc.
If you anticipate two alternators, then
make one of them a standby machine that is
MANUALLY selected at such time the main
alternator is unable to keep the voltage
up. Plan-B is turn OFF main alternator,
turn ON standby alternator. Auto-switching
of the standby alternator adds minimal value
for risk reduction while significantly
adding cost.
BOTH B-leads can share a hall effect
current sensor as illustrated in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf
A single EFIS channel can be utilized
to monitor both alternators . . . but
understand that numbers displayed by this
feature are incidental to the fact that
system voltage IS or IS NOT adequate to
prevent discharging the battery. If the
voltage IS NOT adequate, then go to plan-C.
One sensor is adequate and useful
only during system diagnosis flight
or ground testing.
Bob . . .
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sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:02 am Post subject: Z-12 current sensor options |
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Thanks for the feedback, Bob. Â
I have purchased and installed both the LR3C and the SB1B (I think those are the part #'s) external regulators from B&C. As you know, these come pre-set for 14.4 and 13.0 V respectively and (so I thought) were intended to be online simultaneously at these two voltages so that the switchover to the standby alternator was automatic and required no pilot action. Presumably the immediate drop in bus voltage from 14.4 to 13 would be sensed and alerted in the EFIS software. Please advise if this is not the correct implementation philosophy of this standby regulator in tandem with the LR3C, and why it is viewed as more complex/costly to implement (except the regulator vs the Ford unit.)
I assume that if sharing a Hall sensor is permissible it is also permitted to share a 60A shunt.
Thanks again.
-Bill
On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 11:33 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 07:52 PM 1/21/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | Gentlemen: planning a Z-12 -based dual alternator and single battery but with both alternator outputs paralleled into the 60A shunt and eliminating the Hall effect sensor for the standby alternator B-lead. The panel builder is politely suggesting I will be happier if I keep two independent current monitoring channels in place. Please review my missive to him and see if I am overlooking anything. Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>
Plan (1) - Wired using one each Shunt and Hall channels: 60A alternator is regulated at 14.4V. Adequate for all possible loads, it always outputs through the shunt and its current shows on the EFIS in that channel. 20A standby alternator is regulated at 13.0V. The Hall effect sensor reads zero current on the EFIS basically forever - not a very informative data channel on the EFIS. The day the primary alternator breaks a belt, the shunt current drops to zero, the Hall sensor shows alternator output from the standby, and the bus voltage drops quickly to ~13V as the standby alternator takes the load. Â
Plan (2) - Both alternators feeding through the shunt in parallel, no Hall sensor:  Shunt shows combined output current from both alternators, which is always 100% primary alternator, 0% from standby (because it's regulated to 13 volts into a bus that's already at 14.4V). If the primary alternator ever fails, then the shunt current reading is 100% from the standby alternator. The bus voltage drops to ~13V which is the immediate clue the primary alternator is off-line. Â
This same behavior allows testing the alternators separately at any time the engine is running by switching off their field supplies one at a time and observing: current in scenario (1) or bus voltage in scenario (2).  The shunt in (2) reads system loads regardless of which alternator is doing the work. The Hall in (1) reads zero except when a failure or test occurs. This just means the pilot has to look at a new EFIS channel to see current if the main fails. Â
In Plan (1), either the shunt or the Hall will always read zero. In plan (2), the shunt will always read current from one or the other alternator, but never both - and bus voltage is the indicator of which alternator is doing the work. Â
Not sure a Hall sensor that reads zero in normal operations and only tells me current that the shunt in (2) would show me just as well in a failure scenario is worth buying and wiring in.  |
 Current values observed in flight have very
 little significance in terms of low risk
 conduct of the mission.
 An artfully conducted FMEA and load analysis
 during the construction phase will confirm
 (1) adequate energy sources for all phases
 of flight and (2) no single failure of
 a system component will put the mission
 at risk.
 In other words, CURRENT values that
 present during any phase or failure condition
 are already known. The critical operational
 parameter is bus voltage wherein one is
 notified that the alternator in service IS
 or IS NOT supporting the bus at or above
 battery discharge voltage.
 Hence, active notification of LOW VOLTS
 is the single system parameter that drives
 decisions between plan-A, plan-B, plan-C,
 etc.
 If you anticipate two alternators, then
 make one of them a standby machine that is
 MANUALLY selected at such time the main
 alternator is unable to keep the voltage
 up. Plan-B is turn OFF main alternator,
 turn ON standby alternator. Auto-switching
 of the standby alternator adds minimal value
 for risk reduction while significantly
 adding cost.
 BOTH B-leads can share a hall effect
 current sensor as illustrated in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf
 A single EFIS channel can be utilized
 to monitor both alternators . . . but
 understand that numbers displayed by this
 feature are incidental to the fact that
 system voltage IS or IS NOT adequate to
 prevent discharging the battery. If the
 voltage IS NOT adequate, then go to plan-C.
 One sensor is adequate and useful
 only during system diagnosis flight
 or ground testing.
 Bob . . .
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:42 am Post subject: Z-12 current sensor options |
|
|
At 07:52 PM 1/21/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | Gentlemen: planning a Z-12 -based dual alternator and single battery but with both alternator outputs paralleled into the 60A shunt and eliminating the Hall effect sensor for the standby alternator B-lead. The panel builder is politely suggesting I will be happier if I keep two independent current monitoring channels in place. Please review my missive to him and see if I am overlooking anything. Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>
Plan (1) - Wired using one each Shunt and Hall channels: 60A alternator is regulated at 14.4V. Adequate for all possible loads, it always outputs through the shunt and its current shows on the EFIS in that channel. 20A standby alternator is regulated at 13.0V. The Hall effect sensor reads zero current on the EFIS basically forever - not a very informative data channel on the EFIS. The day the primary alternator breaks a belt, the shunt current drops to zero, the Hall sensor shows alternator output from the standby, and the bus voltage drops quickly to ~13V as the standby alternator takes the load. Â
Plan (2) - Both alternators feeding through the shunt in parallel, no Hall sensor:  Shunt shows combined output current from both alternators, which is always 100% primary alternator, 0% from standby (because it's regulated to 13 volts into a bus that's already at 14.4V). If the primary alternator ever fails, then the shunt current reading is 100% from the standby alternator. The bus voltage drops to ~13V which is the immediate clue the primary alternator is off-line. Â
This same behavior allows testing the alternators separately at any time the engine is running by switching off their field supplies one at a time and observing: current in scenario (1) or bus voltage in scenario (2).  The shunt in (2) reads system loads regardless of which alternator is doing the work. The Hall in (1) reads zero except when a failure or test occurs. This just means the pilot has to look at a new EFIS channel to see current if the main fails. Â
In Plan (1), either the shunt or the Hall will always read zero. In plan (2), the shunt will always read current from one or the other alternator, but never both - and bus voltage is the indicator of which alternator is doing the work. Â
Not sure a Hall sensor that reads zero in normal operations and only tells me current that the shunt in (2) would show me just as well in a failure scenario is worth buying and wiring in.  |
Current values observed in flight have very
little significance in terms of low risk
conduct of the mission.
An artfully conducted FMEA and load analysis
during the construction phase will confirm
(1) adequate energy sources for all phases
of flight and (2) no single failure of
a system component will put the mission
at risk.
In other words, CURRENT values that
present during any phase or failure condition
are already known. The critical operational
parameter is bus voltage wherein one is
notified that the alternator in service IS
or IS NOT supporting the bus at or above
battery discharge voltage.
Hence, active notification of LOW VOLTS
is the single system parameter that drives
decisions between plan-A, plan-B, plan-C,
etc.
If you anticipate two alternators, then
make one of them a standby machine that is
MANUALLY selected at such time the main
alternator is unable to keep the voltage
up. Plan-B is turn OFF main alternator,
turn ON standby alternator. Auto-switching
of the standby alternator adds minimal value
for risk reduction while significantly
adding cost.
BOTH B-leads can share a hall effect
current sensor as illustrated in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf
A single EFIS channel can be utilized
to monitor both alternators . . . but
understand that numbers displayed by this
feature are incidental to the fact that
system voltage IS or IS NOT adequate to
prevent discharging the battery. If the
voltage IS NOT adequate, then go to plan-C.
One sensor is adequate and useful
only during system diagnosis flight
or ground testing.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:51 am Post subject: Z-12 current sensor options |
|
|
At 11:59 AM 1/22/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks for the feedback, Bob. Â
I have purchased and installed both the LR3C and the SB1B (I think those are the part #'s) external regulators from B&C. As you know, these come pre-set for 14.4 and 13.0 V respectively and (so I thought) were intended to be online simultaneously at these two voltages so that the switchover to the standby alternator was automatic and required no pilot action. |
Yup, this was a feature that targeted
the heavy-singles market and warmed
cockles in the hearts of most bureaucratic
worry-specialists. IMHO, entirely unnecessary
in the OBAM aviation market . . .
| Quote: | | Â Presumably the immediate drop in bus voltage from 14.4 to 13 would be sensed and alerted in the EFIS software. |
The SB1B comes with an 'ALTERNATOR LOADED'
annunciator which offers timely notification
of main alternator failure as will any EFIS
alarm set to alert for a bus votlage below
the SB1 setpoint.
| Quote: | | Â Please advise if this is not the correct implementation philosophy of this standby regulator in tandem with the LR3C, and why it is viewed as more complex/costly to implement (except the regulator vs the Ford unit.) |
Okay, if you're already down that road, then
my prior argument isn't useful. Smoke ahead . . .
it works as advertised.
| Quote: | | I assume that if sharing a Hall sensor is permissible it is also permitted to share a 60A shunt. |
This is a 'real' shunt . . . not a hall-effect
sensor? Yes, you can tie both b-leads to the
anti-battery end of the shunt.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:05 pm Post subject: Z-12 current sensor options |
|
|
At 11:59 AM 1/22/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks for the feedback, Bob. Â
I have purchased and installed both the LR3C and the SB1B (I think those are the part #'s) external regulators from B&C. As you know, these come pre-set for 14.4 and 13.0 V respectively and (so I thought) were intended to be online simultaneously at these two voltages so that the switchover to the standby alternator was automatic and required no pilot action. |
Yup, this was a feature that targeted
the heavy-singles market and warmed
cockles in the hearts of most bureaucratic
worry-specialists. IMHO, entirely unnecessary
in the OBAM aviation market . . .
| Quote: | | Â Presumably the immediate drop in bus voltage from 14.4 to 13 would be sensed and alerted in the EFIS software. |
The SB1B comes with an 'ALTERNATOR LOADED'
annunciator which offers timely notification
of main alternator failure as will any EFIS
alarm set to alert for a bus votlage below
the SB1 setpoint.
| Quote: | | Â Please advise if this is not the correct implementation philosophy of this standby regulator in tandem with the LR3C, and why it is viewed as more complex/costly to implement (except the regulator vs the Ford unit.) |
Okay, if you're already down that road, then
my prior argument isn't useful. Smoke ahead . . .
it works as advertised.
| Quote: | | I assume that if sharing a Hall sensor is permissible it is also permitted to share a 60A shunt. |
This is a 'real' shunt . . . not a hall-effect
sensor? Yes, you can tie both b-leads to the
anti-battery end of the shunt.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:21 pm Post subject: Z-12 current sensor options |
|
|
At 11:59 AM 1/22/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks for the feedback, Bob. Â
I have purchased and installed both the LR3C and the SB1B (I think those are the part #'s) external regulators from B&C. As you know, these come pre-set for 14.4 and 13.0 V respectively and (so I thought) were intended to be online simultaneously at these two voltages so that the switchover to the standby alternator was automatic and required no pilot action. |
Yup, this was a feature that targeted
the heavy-singles market and warmed
cockles in the hearts of most bureaucratic
worry-specialists. IMHO, entirely unnecessary
in the OBAM aviation market . . .
| Quote: | | Â Presumably the immediate drop in bus voltage from 14.4 to 13 would be sensed and alerted in the EFIS software. |
The SB1B comes with an 'ALTERNATOR LOADED'
annunciator which offers timely notification
of main alternator failure as will any EFIS
alarm set to alert for a bus votlage below
the SB1 setpoint.
| Quote: | | Â Please advise if this is not the correct implementation philosophy of this standby regulator in tandem with the LR3C, and why it is viewed as more complex/costly to implement (except the regulator vs the Ford unit.) |
Okay, if you're already down that road, then
my prior argument isn't useful. Smoke ahead . . .
it works as advertised.
| Quote: | | I assume that if sharing a Hall sensor is permissible it is also permitted to share a 60A shunt. |
This is a 'real' shunt . . . not a hall-effect
sensor? Yes, you can tie both b-leads to the
anti-battery end of the shunt.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:31 pm Post subject: Z-12 current sensor options |
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|
Yes, that is correct, planning both B leads to the anti-battery end of the physical brass-bar shunt Dynon shunt. I thought it would work that way but nice to have your eyes on it first. Thank you. I'll have them leave the Hall sensor out of the panel quote. Â
-Bill
On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:10 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 11:59 AM 1/22/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks for the feedback, Bob. Â
I have purchased and installed both the LR3C and the SB1B (I think those are the part #'s) external regulators from B&C. As you know, these come pre-set for 14.4 and 13.0 V respectively and (so I thought) were intended to be online simultaneously at these two voltages so that the switchover to the standby alternator was automatic and required no pilot action. |
 Yup, this was a feature that targeted
 the heavy-singles market and warmed
 cockles in the hearts of most bureaucratic
 worry-specialists. IMHO, entirely unnecessary
 in the OBAM aviation market . . .
| Quote: | |  Presumably the immediate drop in bus voltage from 14.4 to 13 would be sensed and alerted in the EFIS software. |
 The SB1B comes with an 'ALTERNATOR LOADED'
 annunciator which offers timely notification
 of main alternator failure as will any EFIS
 alarm set to alert for a bus votlage below
 the SB1 setpoint.
| Quote: | |  Please advise if this is not the correct implementation philosophy of this standby regulator in tandem with the LR3C, and why it is viewed as more complex/costly to implement (except the regulator vs the Ford unit.) |
 Okay, if you're already down that road, then
 my prior argument isn't useful. Smoke ahead . . .
 it works as advertised.
| Quote: | | I assume that if sharing a Hall sensor is permissible it is also permitted to share a 60A shunt. |
 This is a 'real' shunt . . . not a hall-effect
 sensor? Yes, you can tie both b-leads to the
 anti-battery end of the shunt.
 Bob . . .
|
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:47 pm Post subject: Z-12 current sensor options |
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|
At 05:28 PM 1/22/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Yes, that is correct, planning both B leads to the anti-battery end of the physical brass-bar shunt Dynon shunt. I thought it would work that way but nice to have your eyes on it first. Thank you. I'll have them leave the Hall sensor out of the panel quote. |
Works good . . . lasts a long time . . . sounds like a PLAN . . .
Bob . . .
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sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:05 am Post subject: Z-12 current sensor options |
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|
Thanks again, Bob. When it's all dialed in, I'm going to sketch my personal iteration of Z-12 and post a snap here on the List for critical review.
-Bill
On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 6:52 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 05:28 PM 1/22/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Yes, that is correct, planning both B leads to the anti-battery end of the physical brass-bar shunt Dynon shunt. I thought it would work that way but nice to have your eyes on it first. Thank you. I'll have them leave the Hall sensor out of the panel quote. |
 Works good . . . lasts a long time . . . sounds like a PLAN . . .
 Bob . . .
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