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Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

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jaydub

Joined: 07 Jan 2020
Posts: 74

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:24 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

I posted the following at HBA but thought I'd ask here too because of the specialized nature of this list.



I've read the history of Kolb pdf and gathered some info but there are some blurry parts in my mind.



I know the Firestar started out as a UL with a 277. Then they made them heavier with a 447 and 503 in the "fat ultralight" years. Then they differentiated between Firestar 1 & 2. Then, to make a legal UL Kolb did something to lighten them again and made the Firefly model to hit legal weight with a 447.



Does anyone know if the early Firestar fuselages (and even later ones) are the same dimensions and tubing thicknesses as the Firefly? IIRC I read somewhere the weight was reduced in the wings for the Firefly but that might not be true so I'm seeking advice.



What brings about all my strange questions is that I have a lead on everything for an earlier Firestar with everything included but the fuselage. Without a fuselage and serial number I can't determine much as the current owner is at least the 2nd or 3rd owner or even later. I'm wondering if the wing has the same chord between the Firefly/star models or not and would it connect up just fine? In other words, can Firestar wings, tailboom, tail, etc fit on a Firefly fuselage or do I have to stick with the Firestar fuselage? I want to keep it light and under 254 lbs if possible. It comes with a 447 so it's possible it could already be a Firefly but how would I be able to tell? Is the tailboom a different dia or thickness on the Firestar 2? I'm just trying to figure out which of the Firestary/Firefly fuselages would work with the parts I may pick up.



And lastly, does anyone have or know of someone who has a fuselage with landing gear they'd like to part with that will fit the Firestar wings and tail? I have experience cutting out bent tubes and welding in new ones on certificated and homebuilt planes so a wrecked/bent fuselage is OK as I can repair one as long as it's not rusted badly.  If you know of one please contact me as I'm interested.



Thanks,

Jay Dub

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

Don't know if I can answer all your questions, but I can answer some. Back in 2017 I bought a wrecked original Firestar, 1985 vintage, 5 rib wings. Wings and tail and boom tube undamaged, fuselage was totaled. 

Herb of this list gave me an upper fuselage tube and a front end off a Firefly. The Firestar wings mated perfectly to the Firefly upper fuselage. The original Firestar wings are longer than the Firefly wings, so probably a bit heavier.



Simuntaneously with this I also had a FSII that had been dismantled and was being sold. The original Firestar had Kolb's original tail folding mechanism, which was cumbersome to say the least. The FSII had the current quick fold mechanism. Did a lot of measuring and could not find any difference between the two, so swapped them out.



Went to the Kolb factory and took lots of pictures of Firefly fuselages and rebuilt our Firestar cage to conform to the current Firefly setup. 

Short version; with bicycle disc brakes, a 9 pound hand deployed parachute, and a Rotax 277, it does make legal weight. And flies very well.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAcfoOJJDpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIJ_WHLMfY



Here is a good resource: http://harnerfarm.net/serenity/serenity.html

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:54 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

Richard,



  Good to see that you turned that wrecked fuselage into a nice looking Firefly...I rebuilt the wings that you gave me and they are sitting the barn along with tail feathers and tail boom tube .

  I can see that you like a little extra dihedral..



   The  story that developed around the rebuilding of that firefly is sad.

  I met a fellow from Southern Va. at the Kolb Factory , for he was buying a new cage for his Firefly...so he brought his bent cage and sold it to me..Needed very  little repair..taxiing accident..

  He discussed the desire for flight training which I tried to reinforce...Said he was going to Fla and would  check there...Some time later and back in Va...He took off on his maiden flight never to return...likely stalled in...around Staunton as I recall?



   By the way...I need some photo's of the 750 Brs canister install on a Firestar II...I took it off of mine and now have a jumble cords from several  BRS models and the manual seems to be a bit short of diagrams or pics of the install.. so do not know which  is which..



   by the way..I have BRS 950 for sale..needs rocket and repack...came off of a challenger..I hear that unit needs factory repack using a hydraulic press..?? Herb

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.



â€â€â€â€â€â€â€ Original Message â€â€â€â€â€â€â€

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 8:15 AM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Don't know if I can answer all your questions, but I can answer some. Back in 2017 I bought a wrecked original Firestar, 1985 vintage, 5 rib wings. Wings and tail and boom tube undamaged, fuselage was totaled.

 Herb of this list gave me an upper fuselage tube and a front end off a Firefly. The Firestar wings mated perfectly to the Firestar upper fuselage. The original Firestar wings are longer than the Firefly wings, so probably a bit heavier.



 Simuntaneously with this I also had a FSII that had been dismantled and was being sold. The original Firestar had Kolb's original tail folding mechanism, which was cumbersome to say the least. The FSII had the current quick fold mechanism. Did a lot of measuring and could not find any difference between the two, so swapped them out.

 Went to the Kolb factory and took lots of pictures of Firefly fuselages and rebuilt our Firestar cage to conform to the current Firefly setup.

 Short version; with bicycle disc brakes, a 9 pound hand deployed parachute, and a Rotax 277, it does make legal weight. And flies very well.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAcfoOJJDpg

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIJ_WHLMfY



 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0



 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.



 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494525#494525

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:56 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

Fire star 1and2 are physicaly similar more ribs in the 2 but firefly is all by itself,dimensional and tubing size



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jan 29, 2020, at 9:25 AM, jaydub <bearhawk(at)gmx.com> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 I posted the following at HBA but thought I'd ask here too because of the specialized nature of this list.

 

 I've read the history of Kolb pdf and gathered some info but there are some blurry parts in my mind.

 

 I know the Firestar started out as a UL with a 277. Then they made them heavier with a 447 and 503 in the "fat ultralight" years. Then they differentiated between Firestar 1 & 2. Then, to make a legal UL Kolb did something to lighten them again and made the Firefly model to hit legal weight with a 447.

 

 Does anyone know if the early Firestar fuselages (and even later ones) are the same dimensions and tubing thicknesses as the Firefly? IIRC I read somewhere the weight was reduced in the wings for the Firefly but that might not be true so I'm seeking advice.

 

 What brings about all my strange questions is that I have a lead on everything for an earlier Firestar with everything included but the fuselage. Without a fuselage and serial number I can't determine much as the current owner is at least the 2nd or 3rd owner or even later. I'm wondering if the wing has the same chord between the Firefly/star models or not and would it connect up just fine? In other words, can Firestar wings, tailboom, tail, etc fit on a Firefly fuselage or do I have to stick with the Firestar fuselage? I want to keep it light and under 254 lbs if possible. It comes with a 447 so it's possible it could already be a Firefly but how would I be able to tell? Is the tailboom a different dia or thickness on the Firestar 2? I'm just trying to figure out which of the Firestary/Firefly fuselages would work with the parts I may pick up.

 

 And lastly, does anyone have or know of someone who has a fuselage with landing gear they'd like to part with that will fit the Firestar wings and tail? I have experience cutting out bent tubes and welding in new ones on certificated and homebuilt planes so a wrecked/bent fuselage is OK as I can repair one as long as it's not rusted badly.  If you know of one please contact me as I'm interested.

 

 Thanks,

 Jay Dub

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494521#494521

jaydub

Joined: 07 Jan 2020
Posts: 74

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:08 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

Hi All,

Thanks for the info.Â  Good to know the Firefly is itâ€™s own design with different dimensions and different tubing sizes.

 

I talked with the 2nd owner yesterday and found out the wings are the larger spar and 7 rib design like from a Firestar.Â  That means Iâ€™ll have to LSA whatever I do with the wings and all the other parts.Â  If I have to LSA maybe Iâ€™ll try to do a F2.Â  Which that thought leads me to another question, would a Firestar 2SS fuselage be possible with the 7 rib wings and tail from a Firstar since Iâ€™m going to have to get a fuselage no matter what?

 

Thanks,

Jay

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gary Aman (zeprep251(at)aol.com)

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2020 10:59 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions



 

--> Kolb-List message posted by: Gary Aman <zeprep251(at)aol.com>

 

Fire star 1and2 are physicaly similar more ribs in the 2 but firefly is all by itself,dimensional and tubing size

 

Sent from my iPhone

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jan 29, 2020, at 9:25 AM, jaydub <bearhawk(at)gmx.com> wrote:

 

 ï»¿--> Kolb-List message posted by: "jaydub" <bearhawk(at)gmx.com>

 

 I posted the following at HBA but thought I'd ask here too because of the specialized nature of this list.

 

 I've read the history of Kolb pdf and gathered some info but there are some blurry parts in my mind.

 

 I know the Firestar started out as a UL with a 277. Then they made them heavier with a 447 and 503 in the "fat ultralight" years. Then they differentiated between Firestar 1 & 2. Then, to make a legal UL Kolb did something to lighten them again and made the Firefly model to hit legal weight with a 447.

 

 Does anyone know if the early Firestar fuselages (and even later ones) are the same dimensions and tubing thicknesses as the Firefly? IIRC I read somewhere the weight was reduced in the wings for the Firefly but that might not be true so I'm seeking advice.

 

 What brings about all my strange questions is that I have a lead on everything for an earlier Firestar with everything included but the fuselage. Without a fuselage and serial number I can't determine much as the current owner is at least the 2nd or 3rd owner or even later. I'm wondering if the wing has the same chord between the Firefly/star models or not and would it connect up just fine? In other words, can Firestar wings, tailboom, tail, etc fit on a Firefly fuselage or do I have to stick with the Firestar fuselage? I want to keep it light and under 254 lbs if possible. It comes with a 447 so it's possible it could already be a Firefly but how would I be able to tell? Is the tailboom a different dia or thickness on the Firestar 2? I'm just trying to figure out which of the Firestary/Firefly fuselages would work with the parts I may pick up.

 

 And lastly, does anyone have or know of someone who has a fuselage with landing gear they'd like to part with that will fit the Firestar wings and tail? I have experience cutting out bent tubes and welding in new ones on certificated and homebuilt planes so a wrecked/bent fuselage is OK as I can repair one as long as it's not rusted badly.Â  If you know of one please contact me as I'm interested.

 

 Thanks,

 Jay Dub

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494521#494521

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Â Â Â Â Â  (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

List please correct me if I am wrong, but best I know, the MKIII, Kolbra & Slingshot have 6" spars and boom tubes, everything else has a 5" spar and boom tube.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:37 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

Yup, I believe you are correct.



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:23 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 List please correct me if I am wrong, but best I know, the MKIII, Kolbra & Slingshot have 6" spars and boom tubes, everything else has a 5" spar and boom tube.

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal 

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494543#494543

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:40 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

Â Richard,,,As as far as I know that is exactly correct!



Boyd Young mkiii Utah

Do not archive!

List please correct me if I am wrong, but best I know, the MKIII, Kolbra & Slingshot have 6" spars and boom tubes, everything else has a 5" spar and boom tube.

Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:03 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

us,firefly,firestar,MkII all use the same rib also..  the Kolbra,MkIII and slingshot use the same rib also..Herb



by the way,I have a nice set of spars for the Firefly..ready to go...but do have the rivet holes for the ribs...I converted a Firefly to use the Firestar single lift strut...and used the ribs for those..



Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.





â€â€â€â€â€â€â€ Original Message â€â€â€â€â€â€â€



 On Friday, January 31, 2020 11:38 AM, B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Richard,,,As as far as I know that is exactly correct!



Boyd Young mkiii Utah



Do not archive!



List please correct me if I am wrong, but best I know, the MKIII, Kolbra & Slingshot have 6" spars and boom tubes, everything else has a 5" spar and boom tube.

twoflyboys(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:13 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

The booms are the same thickness the fire fly boom is a foot shorter  the cord of the wings are the same but the fire fly wing is 3 feet shorter each  , the aileron and flap system are different , the tubing on the fire fly fuselage are smaller in diameter 

Sal



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jan 29, 2020, at 6:25 AM, jaydub <bearhawk(at)gmx.com> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 I posted the following at HBA but thought I'd ask here too because of the specialized nature of this list.

 

 I've read the history of Kolb pdf and gathered some info but there are some blurry parts in my mind.

 

 I know the Firestar started out as a UL with a 277. Then they made them heavier with a 447 and 503 in the "fat ultralight" years. Then they differentiated between Firestar 1 & 2. Then, to make a legal UL Kolb did something to lighten them again and made the Firefly model to hit legal weight with a 447.

 

 Does anyone know if the early Firestar fuselages (and even later ones) are the same dimensions and tubing thicknesses as the Firefly? IIRC I read somewhere the weight was reduced in the wings for the Firefly but that might not be true so I'm seeking advice.

 

 What brings about all my strange questions is that I have a lead on everything for an earlier Firestar with everything included but the fuselage. Without a fuselage and serial number I can't determine much as the current owner is at least the 2nd or 3rd owner or even later. I'm wondering if the wing has the same chord between the Firefly/star models or not and would it connect up just fine? In other words, can Firestar wings, tailboom, tail, etc fit on a Firefly fuselage or do I have to stick with the Firestar fuselage? I want to keep it light and under 254 lbs if possible. It comes with a 447 so it's possible it could already be a Firefly but how would I be able to tell? Is the tailboom a different dia or thickness on the Firestar 2? I'm just trying to figure out which of the Firestary/Firefly fuselages would work with the parts I may pick up.

 

 And lastly, does anyone have or know of someone who has a fuselage with landing gear they'd like to part with that will fit the Firestar wings and tail? I have experience cutting out bent tubes and welding in new ones on certificated and homebuilt planes so a wrecked/bent fuselage is OK as I can repair one as long as it's not rusted badly.  If you know of one please contact me as I'm interested.

 

 Thanks,

 Jay Dub

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494521#494521

jaydub

Joined: 07 Jan 2020
Posts: 74

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:49 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions

This is all good information that I couldnâ€™t find in any one place.Â  Itâ€™s quite helpful so thank you to everyone who replied.Â  Itâ€™s going to be a couple of weeks yet before I can go pick up the pile of parts (everything but a fuselage/cage).Â  Iâ€™ll know better when I get everything home and can measure things and verify what I have. Neither the current owner nor the previous owner to him know exactly which model of Firestar the parts came from.Â  With the 7 rib wings I would assume (from reading the history of Kolb) it was at least a KXP, FS1 or FS2 but thatâ€™s assuming things.Â  Since it has a 447 I would be guessing it might be a bit older because most folks went with a 503 with the heavier wings and most wouldnâ€™t use a 447 with an FS2 I wouldnâ€™t think if they had 2 people aboard.

 

If Iâ€™m understanding correctly (tell me if this is flawed) using the 7 rib wings, tail, boom, etc from the Firestar that Iâ€™ll be picking up, it sounds like I have many options for which fuselage I can use.Â  It sounds like I might be able to use a fuselage from a: 

Firefly (although it will have lighter/smaller 4130 tubes and not meet 254lbs because of the heavier wings) but both the strut and wing attach points might be weaker due to itâ€™s designed for shorter wings with less lift but this is an assumption on my part, 

Firestar (Original, KX, KXP, FS1 or FS2 and possibly FS2SS), 

Twinstar Mk2, 

With the assumption (which is dangerous to assume) if these models all use the 5â€ wing spars, same chord wing, and 5â€ boom tube with tail feathers.Â  Is that correct?Â  If so those are great options.Â  

 

Bottom line: I will end up with whatever model according to what fuselage I can find for a reasonable price.Â  I see from the Kolbaircraft website that I can buy new Firefly or Firestar fuselages but the price is a bit higher than I can afford right now.

 

Thanks,

Jay in Wyoming

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Pfatchantz (Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.ch)

Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 11:07 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Kolb Firefly/Firestar fuselage questions



 

us,firefly,firestar,MkII all use the same rib also..  the Kolbra,MkIII and slingshot use the same rib also..Herb



 



by the way,I have a nice set of spars for the Firefly..ready to go...but do have the rivet holes for the ribs...I converted a Firefly to use the Firestar single lift strut...and used the ribs for those..



 



 



Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

 



â€â€â€â€â€â€â€ Original Message â€â€â€â€â€â€â€



On Friday, January 31, 2020 11:38 AM, B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Richard,,,As as far as I know that is exactly correct!



 



Boyd Young mkiii Utah



 



Do not archive!



 



List please correct me if I am wrong, but best I know, the MKIII, Kolbra & Slingshot have 6" spars and boom tubes, everything else has a 5" spar and boom tube.

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