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jaydub
Joined: 07 Jan 2020
Posts: 74
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 Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:55 pm Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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It looks like Friday I go to pickup a Firestar project. It has everything but the fuselage. What is the best way to transport the wings? They are covered and I believe the ailerons are still attached.
I have a minivan and a 5'x10' trailer (see attachment, I will remove the mesh ramp). I am planning on putting the engine, prop, nose pod, etc in the van. My trailer is not enclosed but it does have sides that come up about 3' with some boards covering steel. I can either lay one wing down on the floor (with foamboard or a mattress underneath) then put something between the other one on top of that. Then I can strap it down somehow. The other option would be to have foamboard or other protection along the sidewall and on the floor and stand the wing up, put a layer between them and put the next wing beside it, another layer of protection on the outside of that wing and strap it in somehow. The third option would be to stand one wing up along one side and the other along the other side by itself. I'm not certain any of those are the best option.
For those of you who have transported loose wings, what suggestions would you have with what I have to work with?
Thanks,
Jay
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Last edited by jaydub on Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jaydub
Joined: 07 Jan 2020
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: wing transport suggestions |
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One other question, the wingspan is 27 ft. 8 in. but part of that is the fuselage. Does anyone know what the actual length of 1 wing is? I'm assuming 12 to 13' but I'm not sure.
Jay
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rascaljohn
Joined: 02 May 2013
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:59 pm Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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Firestar wing is about 13-6” long
Wing with aileron - 61” wide
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Feb 11, 2020, at 5:18 PM, jaydub <bearhawk(at)gmx.com> wrote:
One other question, the wingspan is 27 ft. 8 in. but part of that is the fuselage. Does anyone know what the actual length of 1 wing is? I'm assuming 12 to 13' but I'm not sure.
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494772#494772
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:56 pm Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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On 2/11/2020 6:56 PM, jaydub wrote:
| Quote: |
It looks like Friday I go to pickup a Firestar project. It has everything but the fuselage. What is the best way to transport the wings? They are covered and I believe the ailerons are still attached.
I have a minivan and a 5'x10' trailer (see attachment, I will remove the mesh ramp). I am planning on putting the engine, prop, nose pod, etc in the van. My trailer is not enclosed but it does have sides that come up about 3' with some boards covering steel. I can either lay one wing down on the floor (with foamboard or a mattress underneath) then put something between the other one on top of that. Then I can strap it down somehow. The other option would be to have foamboard or other protection along the sidewall and on the floor and stand the wing up, put a layer between them and put the next wing beside it, another layer of protection on the outside of that wing and strap it in somehow. The third option would be to stand one wing up along one side and the other along the other side by itself. I'm not certain any of those are the best option.
For those of you who have transported loose wings, what suggestions would you have with what I have to work with?
Thanks,
Jay
Since no one's jumped in with specific transport info, I'll offer some
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ideas.
I transported a Twinstar almost 600 miles with the wingroot bolted to
the fuselage and the outboard end of the wing resting in a cradle made
of a strip of carpet. A cradle made from a strip of carpet the length of
the leading edge would work fine to support a wing; padded ratchet
straps would hold it in the cradle.
Another option: I recently helped pack a Pitts S1 & an RV4 in a shipping
container. It all made it safely to Argentina. We used old pillows and
ratchet straps to tie the wings to the sides of the container. Four
straps per wing. One pair acting as cradles, top of wall>down under the
leading edge>up to top of wall, with pillows captured by the straps
padding the wing out from the wall and protecting the wing from the
straps. 2nd pair from top of wall down across the pillows to bottom of wall.
But with working with the trailer you have, I'd consider 3 cheap
mattresses, or even thick foam rubber pads. One under, one between, and
one over; straps over all.
Charlie
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:58 pm Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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Only once did I try to haul a set of wings on an open trailer. Despite all the precautions I took to protect them I didn't make it five miles before a crosswind hit and the upwind wing hit fuselage brackets tearing the covering. On the other hand I transported my Mk III home from Alabama to Kansas in an enclosed truck. No problems at all. My suggestion, don't risk it, rent or borrow an enclosed trailer. You'll be much happier when you get home and find your wings still pristine. A rental will still be much cheaper than repairs to covering and structure.As others note; worth what you paid for this advice.
Good luck with whatever you decide
Rick
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 7:22 PM jaydub <bearhawk(at)gmx.com (bearhawk(at)gmx.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jaydub" <bearhawk(at)gmx.com (bearhawk(at)gmx.com)>
One other question, the wingspan is 27 ft. 8 in. but part of that is the fuselage. Does anyone know what the actual length of 1 wing is? I'm assuming 12 to 13' but I'm not sure.
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494772#494772
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:11 pm Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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Valid point. I hauled my project on a completely open trailer (looks like a boat trailer, but was custom built to haul a Thorp T18). The wing coverings didn't survive the 600 mile trip, but I figured that had more to do with the 30 year age of the fabric than any kind of wind damage. The tailfeathers got a couple of holes from my inadequate securing of the cables & fittings, but were easily patched. The tail's fabric was in much better shape than the wings'.
Charlie
On 2/12/2020 2:55 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | Only once did I try to haul a set of wings on an open trailer. Despite all the precautions I took to protect them I didn't make it five miles before a crosswind hit and the upwind wing hit fuselage brackets tearing the covering. On the other hand I transported my Mk III home from Alabama to Kansas in an enclosed truck. No problems at all. My suggestion, don't risk it, rent or borrow an enclosed trailer. You'll be much happier when you get home and find your wings still pristine. A rental will still be much cheaper than repairs to covering and structure. As others note; worth what you paid for this advice.
Good luck with whatever you decide
Rick
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 7:22 PM jaydub <bearhawk(at)gmx.com (bearhawk(at)gmx.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jaydub" <bearhawk(at)gmx.com (bearhawk(at)gmx.com)>
One other question, the wingspan is 27 ft. 8 in. but part of that is the fuselage. Does anyone know what the actual length of 1 wing is? I'm assuming 12 to 13' but I'm not sure.
Jay
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jaydub
Joined: 07 Jan 2020
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: wing transport suggestions |
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Due to some bad weather yesterday and sloppy roads today I've postponed my trip until Saturday, tomorrow.
I appreciate all the advice. I gathered up 6 old bunkbed mattresses, a bunch of old blankets and quilts, and I have a few ideas of how I might make them work (think tacos).
Since I'm picking up all but the fuselage, the wings are already separate, and the boom with tail feathers is separate. I'm thinking of unbolting the tailfeathers from the boom (if possible as I don't know what is riveted and what is bolted) then figuring out if it's best to put the boom up on the roof rack or if it's less likely to be dented in the trailer. The removed tail feathers will go inside the van. Since it's already a project needing a bit of fabric repairs already, it won't be the end of the world if I get a little damage but I want to try to not get anymore. I'm taking gorilla tape to close up any holes already in the wings so the wind won't catch anything and rip it more.
A large rental truck would be a very good option for a completed aircraft but in this case the rental and the fuel would be double the cost of what I'm paying for the project pieces. Since I'd still have to protect the wings similarly in the truck as I will the trailer I'll just use the trailer. I did look into a project about 2k miles away and I was ready to rent a 26' Penske truck. I rented one a few years ago to move from MI to WY and they keep a nice fleet.
Again, thanks for the advice as it's made me think it through a bit more and it really helps.
Jay Dub
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:05 pm Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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Everything is removable except the vertical fin
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Feb 14, 2020, at 3:19 PM, jaydub <bearhawk(at)gmx.com> wrote:
Due to some bad weather yesterday and sloppy roads today I've postponed my trip until Saturday, tomorrow.
I appreciate all the advice. I gathered up 6 old bunkbed mattresses, a bunch of old blankets and quilts, and I have a few ideas of how I might make them work (think tacos).
Since I'm picking up all but the fuselage, the wings are already separate, and the boom with tail feathers is separate. I'm thinking of unbolting the tailfeathers from the boom (if possible as I don't know what is riveted and what is bolted) then figuring out if it's best to put the boom up on the roof rack or if it's less likely to be dented in the trailer. The removed tail feathers will go inside the van. Since it's already a project needing a bit of fabric repairs already, it won't be the end of the world if I get a little damage but I want to try to not get anymore. I'm taking gorilla tape to close up any holes already in the wings so the wind won't catch anything and rip it more.
A large rental truck would be a very good option for a completed aircraft but in this case the rental and the fuel would be double the cost of what I'm paying for the project pieces. Since I'd still have to protect the wings similarly in the truck as I will the trailer I'll just use the trailer. I did look into a project about 2k miles away and I was ready to rent a 26' Penske truck. I rented one a few years ago to move from MI to WY and they keep a nice fleet.
Again, thanks for the advice as it's made me think it through a bit more and it really helps.
Jay Dub
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494806#494806
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russk50(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:28 pm Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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Kolbers, just FYI a 26’ UHaul truck is NOT 26’ inside! — nearer 25.
Dont ask me how I know
Good luck
| Quote: | On Feb 14, 2020, at 3:17 PM, jaydub <bearhawk(at)gmx.com> wrote:
Due to some bad weather yesterday and sloppy roads today I've postponed my trip until Saturday, tomorrow.
I appreciate all the advice. I gathered up 6 old bunkbed mattresses, a bunch of old blankets and quilts, and I have a few ideas of how I might make them work (think tacos).
Since I'm picking up all but the fuselage, the wings are already separate, and the boom with tail feathers is separate. I'm thinking of unbolting the tailfeathers from the boom (if possible as I don't know what is riveted and what is bolted) then figuring out if it's best to put the boom up on the roof rack or if it's less likely to be dented in the trailer. The removed tail feathers will go inside the van. Since it's already a project needing a bit of fabric repairs already, it won't be the end of the world if I get a little damage but I want to try to not get anymore. I'm taking gorilla tape to close up any holes already in the wings so the wind won't catch anything and rip it more.
A large rental truck would be a very good option for a completed aircraft but in this case the rental and the fuel would be double the cost of what I'm paying for the project pieces. Since I'd still have to protect the wings similarly in the truck as I will the trailer I'll just use the trailer. I did look into a project about 2k miles away and I was ready to rent a 26' Penske truck. I rented one a few years ago to move from MI to WY and they keep a nice fleet.
Again, thanks for the advice as it's made me think it through a bit more and it really helps.
Jay Dub
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494806#494806
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jaydub
Joined: 07 Jan 2020
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: wing transport suggestions |
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The trip went well. We tried a few ways but we came up with what we thought would work, and it successfully did.
I had 6 bunkbed mattresses and some sheet styrofoam. No damage whatsoever. A few pix of how we did it in case others coming behind want to see what worked for me. 2 folded mattresses on the floor as in the pic. Next a wing with styrofoam along front of trailer and passenger side as well as between the attached aileron and wing. 2 more mattresses then the next wing and styrofoam. Last, 2 more matresses with the boom/tail on top then all strapped down. We compressed it all together with the straps distributing the load due to 4 straps. A small strap was placed over the rudder to keep it from flapping. It worked great.
It traveled just fine over a few rough roads in Montana and WY, just over 420 miles. The engine, prop, nose pod, instruments, etc all rode in the van.
Now I need a FS2 fuselage to go with it and let the fun begin.
Jay
Update: removed photos, sorry for the consternation it all caused.
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:23 am Post subject: Re: wing transport suggestions |
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Makes things so much easier to read:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/resize-image/9p87m9tknkvl?activetab=pivot:overviewtab
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:14 am Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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Always complaining. 99% of us have a real internet connection and like to see details. Why do we all of need to hear the complaints and give up the resolution so one or two don't have to wait a few seconds. Pay for real internet or quit complaining please.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>
Makes things so much easier to read:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/resize-image/9p87m9tknkvl?activetab=pivot:overviewtab
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494859#494859
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:41 am Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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Rick,
I'd suggest taking a step back, and doing a little research. Both on real world conditions and on your own attitude.
First, here in the 'great' USA, your figure of 99% broadband coverage is grossly overstated. Even if we use the current (nonsensical) definition of broadband, which the Trump minion has rolled back to include DSL, only 85% have access to 'real' internet.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/185602/broadband-and-dial-up-internet-connection-usage-in-the-us/
And trust me; DSL is *not* real broadband. Real world numbers for true broadband are closer to 50% coverage here in the US. I live ~10 miles from a city of 200K people, on a major highway (with AT&T fiber running in front of my house), and there is currently *no wired internet available* to new subscribers in my area, and my old DSL account barely works. The only reason I have even imitation 'real' broadband is because I got in on an unlimited cellular hotspot plan, which is no longer available to new customers. Even that is barely 'real' compared to those with access to fiber & cable. Many people can't afford to pay for unlimited data plans, especially in areas with no real competition.
Second, useful image size for viewing an image on a computer screen tops out at well under a megabyte. Sending 10 meg images is just a waste, it costs Matt Dralle (Matronics host) money for disc storage, and even more significantly, for bandwidth every time we upload or download an image. I'd suggest reading his FAQs sometime.
Third, you've got a lot of nerve telling someone to just go spend money they may not have. Since we're poking around in others' financial affairs, how much do you donate to Matt each year to maintain this list?
OK; rant mode off...
Charlie
On 2/17/2020 12:12 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Always complaining. 99% of us have a real internet connection and like to see details. Why do we all of need to hear the complaints and give up the resolution so one or two don't have to wait a few seconds. Pay for real internet or quit complaining please.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:44 pm Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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Well I guess I ruffled a feather. In the summer I live 30 miles from any town over 10,000 people and just got 10MB cable internet last summer. There are options for satellite that are getting less expensive every year. I know it can be difficult to get real internet but there are other options if you look around and talk to people.
I have been around since the days when weather reports were distributed by teletype at a blazing speed of 103 baud. Back then they developed a short hand to deal with the slow speeds. When dial up internet got to 48K baud there was no need for the short hand but it continued. Today they are still sending some weather reports using the shorthand and people occasionally die due to the confusion of improper decoding and most people and weather stations have internet speed well more than the 10MB or ten million baud. The point is we are well past the point where we need to be concerned with a 1 MB photo. There are always going to be people that don't want to move forward. Way too often I can't zoom in enough to see enough detail the person was showing us because it is too compressed. Is someone going to have to die to get the detail we need? In past years I was willing to wait a few extra seconds to get a detailed photo.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 2:44 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Rick,
I'd suggest taking a step back, and doing a little research. Both on real world conditions and on your own attitude.
First, here in the 'great' USA, your figure of 99% broadband coverage is grossly overstated. Even if we use the current (nonsensical) definition of broadband, which the Trump minion has rolled back to include DSL, only 85% have access to 'real' internet.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/185602/broadband-and-dial-up-internet-connection-usage-in-the-us/
And trust me; DSL is *not* real broadband. Real world numbers for true broadband are closer to 50% coverage here in the US. I live ~10 miles from a city of 200K people, on a major highway (with AT&T fiber running in front of my house), and there is currently *no wired internet available* to new subscribers in my area, and my old DSL account barely works. The only reason I have even imitation 'real' broadband is because I got in on an unlimited cellular hotspot plan, which is no longer available to new customers. Even that is barely 'real' compared to those with access to fiber & cable. Many people can't afford to pay for unlimited data plans, especially in areas with no real competition.
Second, useful image size for viewing an image on a computer screen tops out at well under a megabyte. Sending 10 meg images is just a waste, it costs Matt Dralle (Matronics host) money for disc storage, and even more significantly, for bandwidth every time we upload or download an image. I'd suggest reading his FAQs sometime.
Third, you've got a lot of nerve telling someone to just go spend money they may not have. Since we're poking around in others' financial affairs, how much do you donate to Matt each year to maintain this list?
OK; rant mode off...
Charlie
On 2/17/2020 12:12 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Always complaining. 99% of us have a real internet connection and like to see details. Why do we all of need to hear the complaints and give up the resolution so one or two don't have to wait a few seconds. Pay for real internet or quit complaining please.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:03 pm Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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Look, I share your frustration with poor resolution in photos. But there's a difference between a grainy 50KB image and a high res 1MB image (which will fill a computer screen at HD resolution). Jumping to a 10MB image gets you nothing on your screen (except possible frustration with having to scroll to see the whole image), and does indeed cost our generous host more money. Here you go; copied from the FAQ email that Matt sends all of us about once a month:
| Quote: | Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
If you don't like the rules,...well, perhaps this is the wrong sandbox.
In addition to a town of 200K 10 miles away from me, there's a town of about 1500 3.5 miles away that has fiber to the home, but that doesn't help anyone in the area where I live. That's also the case for at least 30% of the rest of the citizens in the USA, as well. Yes, like you, I've seen the commercials for sat based internet, but apparently unlike you, I actually know some people who've tried it. It's great, if you want to download 3 or 4 emails at 4:00 AM on a Tuesday. Then you're out of high speed data for a week or two.
I share your frustration with abbreviated weather coding. And I've been around since the 100 baud days, too. But I've seen reports that there are still weather stations around the world that are still running on teletype grade equipment, and the reason for maintaining the archaic weather codes are to support them. I realize that doesn't fit the rather common US citizen's attitude of "I've got mine; up yours". I guess we should just let those who still depend on teletype delivered weather do without, right? Of course, that teletype speed station might be actually *sending* useful info to *us*...so we'll make allowances for those...
I wasn't aware that there's a high fatality rate from not being able to see detail in an image posted on an internet email list. Dying from not being able to see a picture really is a 1st world problem.
'We' might be well past worrying about a 1MB photo (I've got a 10M/s cell connection now), but that doesn't mean *everyone* is.
Somebody politely and gently pointed out an easy way to *respect the rules of this email list*, not unlike politely asking a smoker to move to the no-smoking section. Some smokers would respond to those requests by calling the non-smoker rude, and of trying to take away their 'freedom' and 'rights'.
Again, since you're so free with spending other people's money, how much have you donated (ever) in support of this list?
Charlie
|
On 2/17/2020 2:34 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Well I guess I ruffled a feather. In the summer I live 30 miles from any town over 10,000 people and just got 10MB cable internet last summer. There are options for satellite that are getting less expensive every year. I know it can be difficult to get real internet but there are other options if you look around and talk to people.
I have been around since the days when weather reports were distributed by teletype at a blazing speed of 103 baud. Back then they developed a short hand to deal with the slow speeds. When dial up internet got to 48K baud there was no need for the short hand but it continued. Today they are still sending some weather reports using the shorthand and people occasionally die due to the confusion of improper decoding and most people and weather stations have internet speed well more than the 10MB or ten million baud. The point is we are well past the point where we need to be concerned with a 1 MB photo. There are always going to be people that don't want to move forward. Way too often I can't zoom in enough to see enough detail the person was showing us because it is too compressed. Is someone going to have to die to get the detail we need? In past years I was willing to wait a few extra seconds to get a detailed photo.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 2:44 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Rick,
I'd suggest taking a step back, and doing a little research. Both on real world conditions and on your own attitude.
First, here in the 'great' USA, your figure of 99% broadband coverage is grossly overstated. Even if we use the current (nonsensical) definition of broadband, which the Trump minion has rolled back to include DSL, only 85% have access to 'real' internet.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/185602/broadband-and-dial-up-internet-connection-usage-in-the-us/
And trust me; DSL is *not* real broadband. Real world numbers for true broadband are closer to 50% coverage here in the US. I live ~10 miles from a city of 200K people, on a major highway (with AT&T fiber running in front of my house), and there is currently *no wired internet available* to new subscribers in my area, and my old DSL account barely works. The only reason I have even imitation 'real' broadband is because I got in on an unlimited cellular hotspot plan, which is no longer available to new customers. Even that is barely 'real' compared to those with access to fiber & cable. Many people can't afford to pay for unlimited data plans, especially in areas with no real competition.
Second, useful image size for viewing an image on a computer screen tops out at well under a megabyte. Sending 10 meg images is just a waste, it costs Matt Dralle (Matronics host) money for disc storage, and even more significantly, for bandwidth every time we upload or download an image. I'd suggest reading his FAQs sometime.
Third, you've got a lot of nerve telling someone to just go spend money they may not have. Since we're poking around in others' financial affairs, how much do you donate to Matt each year to maintain this list?
OK; rant mode off...
Charlie
On 2/17/2020 12:12 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Always complaining. 99% of us have a real internet connection and like to see details. Why do we all of need to hear the complaints and give up the resolution so one or two don't have to wait a few seconds. Pay for real internet or quit complaining please.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
|
|
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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jaydub
Joined: 07 Jan 2020
Posts: 74
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: wing transport suggestions |
|
|
| neilsenrm(at)gmail.com wrote: | Always complaining. 99% of us have a real internet connection and like to see details. Why do we all of need to hear the complaints and give up the resolution so one or two don't have to wait a few seconds. Pay for real internet or quit complaining please.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Richard Pike <thegreybaron> wrote:
|
You know not whereof you speak. I run a very fast internet connection and a gaming computer, so that has nothing to do with anything. All I did was offer an easy way to do what Matt Dralle asks us to do, and he specifically asks in the Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines to keep the bandwidth usage to a minimum. It's his show, he runs it, go fuss at him.
Jaydub; you didn't cause any consternation; It's just that I easily trigger some people. Don't worry about it.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:49 pm Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
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|
Charlie
One last time then I'm done. Technology has advanced to the point that photo storage and down loading photos is really a non issue. We are now in the video age where video storage and video down load speeds are a concern like photos were maybe as far back as 8-10 years ago. I share your concern for Matt having to store extremely large photos but photo level storage is dirt cheep. I just built a 9TB RAID 5 media server from a NAS box for $400 that could hold app. 9 million 1 MB photos. Matt needs to update his guidelines.
I'm sure you are a wonderful supporter of our Kolb list and Matt's efforts, thank you. I'm not sure what you were really trying to say but you might have seen my name on the contributors list for the last 30+ years? How long has the list been going?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 8:07 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Look, I share your frustration with poor resolution in photos. But there's a difference between a grainy 50KB image and a high res 1MB image (which will fill a computer screen at HD resolution). Jumping to a 10MB image gets you nothing on your screen (except possible frustration with having to scroll to see the whole image), and does indeed cost our generous host more money. Here you go; copied from the FAQ email that Matt sends all of us about once a month:
| Quote: | Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
If you don't like the rules,...well, perhaps this is the wrong sandbox.
In addition to a town of 200K 10 miles away from me, there's a town of about 1500 3.5 miles away that has fiber to the home, but that doesn't help anyone in the area where I live. That's also the case for at least 30% of the rest of the citizens in the USA, as well. Yes, like you, I've seen the commercials for sat based internet, but apparently unlike you, I actually know some people who've tried it. It's great, if you want to download 3 or 4 emails at 4:00 AM on a Tuesday. Then you're out of high speed data for a week or two.
I share your frustration with abbreviated weather coding. And I've been around since the 100 baud days, too. But I've seen reports that there are still weather stations around the world that are still running on teletype grade equipment, and the reason for maintaining the archaic weather codes are to support them. I realize that doesn't fit the rather common US citizen's attitude of "I've got mine; up yours". I guess we should just let those who still depend on teletype delivered weather do without, right? Of course, that teletype speed station might be actually *sending* useful info to *us*...so we'll make allowances for those...
I wasn't aware that there's a high fatality rate from not being able to see detail in an image posted on an internet email list. Dying from not being able to see a picture really is a 1st world problem.
'We' might be well past worrying about a 1MB photo (I've got a 10M/s cell connection now), but that doesn't mean *everyone* is.
Somebody politely and gently pointed out an easy way to *respect the rules of this email list*, not unlike politely asking a smoker to move to the no-smoking section. Some smokers would respond to those requests by calling the non-smoker rude, and of trying to take away their 'freedom' and 'rights'.
Again, since you're so free with spending other people's money, how much have you donated (ever) in support of this list?
Charlie
|
On 2/17/2020 2:34 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
[quote] Well I guess I ruffled a feather. In the summer I live 30 miles from any town over 10,000 people and just got 10MB cable internet last summer. There are options for satellite that are getting less expensive every year. I know it can be difficult to get real internet but there are other options if you look around and talk to people.
I have been around since the days when weather reports were distributed by teletype at a blazing speed of 103 baud. Back then they developed a short hand to deal with the slow speeds. When dial up internet got to 48K baud there was no need for the short hand but it continued. Today they are still sending some weather reports using the shorthand and people occasionally die due to the confusion of improper decoding and most people and weather stations have internet speed well more than the 10MB or ten million baud. The point is we are well past the point where we need to be concerned with a 1 MB photo. There are always going to be people that don't want to move forward
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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| Back to top |
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Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:29 am Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
|
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one way to do pics if they are just for show and tell..Herb
https://www.use.com/Od7HU
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Monday, February 17, 2020 11:46 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Charlie
One last time then I'm done. Technology has advanced to the point that photo storage and down loading photos is really a non issue. We are now in the video age where video storage and video down load speeds are a concern like photos were maybe as far back as 8-10 years ago. I share your concern for Matt having to store extremely large photos but photo level storage is dirt cheep. I just built a 9TB RAID 5 media server from a NAS box for $400 that could hold app. 9 million 1 MB photos. Matt needs to update his guidelines.
I'm sure you are a wonderfulsupporter of our Kolb list and Matt's efforts, thank you. I'm not sure what you were really trying to say but you might have seen my name on the contributors list for the last 30+ years? How long has the list been going?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 8:07 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Look, I share your frustration with poor resolution in photos. But there's a difference between a grainy 50KB image and a high res 1MB image (which will fill a computer screen at HD resolution). Jumping to a 10MB image gets you nothing on your screen (except possible frustration with having to scroll to see the whole image), and does indeed cost our generous host more money. Here you go; copied from the FAQ email that Matt sends all of us about once a month:
| Quote: | Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
If you don't like the rules,...well, perhaps this is the wrong sandbox.
In addition to a town of 200K 10 miles away from me, there's a town of about 1500 3.5 miles away that has fiber to the home, but that doesn't help anyone in the area where I live. That's also the case for at least 30% of the rest of the citizens in the USA, as well. Yes, like you, I've seen the commercials for sat based internet, but apparently unlike you, I actually know some people who've tried it. It's great, if you want to download 3 or 4 emails at 4:00 AM on a Tuesday. Then you're out of high speed data for a week or two.
I share your frustration with abbreviated weather coding. And I've been around since the 100 baud days, too. But I've seen reports that there are still weather stations around the world that are still running on teletype grade equipment, and the reason for maintaining the archaic weather codes are to support them. I realize that doesn't fit the rather common US citizen's attitude of "I've got mine; up yours". I guess we should just let those who still depend on teletype delivered weather do without, right? Of course, that teletype speed station might be actually *sending* useful info to *us*...so we'll make allowances for those...
I wasn't aware that there's a high fatality rate from not being able to see detail in an image posted on an internet email list. Dying from not being able to see a picture really is a 1st world problem.
'We' might be well past worrying about a 1MB photo (I've got a 10M/s cell connection now), but that doesn't mean *everyone* is.
Somebody politely and gently pointed out an easy way to *respect the rules of this email list*, not unlike politely asking a smoker to move to the no-smoking section. Some smokers would respond to those requests by calling the non-smoker rude, and of trying to take away their 'freedom' and 'rights'.
Again, since you're so free with spending other people's money, how much have you donated (ever) in support of this list?
Charlie
|
On 2/17/2020 2:34 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Well I guess I ruffled a feather. In the summer I live 30 miles from any town over 10,000 people and just got 10MB cable internet last summer. There are options for satellite that are getting less expensive every year. I know it can be difficult to get real internet but there are other options if you look around and talk to people.
I have been around since the days when weather reports were distributed by teletype at a blazing speed of 103 baud. Back then they developed a short hand to deal with the slow speeds. When dial up internet got to 48K baud there was no need for the short hand but it continued. Today they are still sending some weather reports using the shorthand and people occasionally die due to the confusion of improper decoding and most people and weather stations have internet speed well more than the 10MB or ten million baud. The point is we are well past the point where we need to be concerned with a 1 MB photo. There are always going to be people that don't want to move forward. Way too often I can't zoom in enough to see enough detail the person was showing us because it is too compressed. Is someone going to have to die to get the detail we need? In past years I was willing to wait a few extra seconds to get a detailed photo.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 2:44 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Rick,
I'd suggest taking a step back, and doing a little research. Both on real world conditions and on your own attitude.
First, here in the 'great' USA, your figure of 99% broadband coverage is grossly overstated. Even if we use the current (nonsensical) definition of broadband, which the Trump minion has rolled back to include DSL, only 85% have access to 'real' internet.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/185602/broadband-and-dial-up-internet-connection-usage-in-the-us/
And trust me; DSL is *not* real broadband. Real world numbers for true broadband are closer to 50% coverage here in the US. I live ~10 miles from a city of 200K people, on a major highway (with AT&T fiber running in front of my house), and there is currently *no wired internet available* to new subscribers in my area, and my old DSL account barely works. The only reason I have even imitation 'real' broadband is because I got in on an unlimited cellular hotspot plan, which is no longer available to new customers. Even that is barely 'real' compared to those with access to fiber & cable. Many people can't afford to pay for unlimited data plans, especially in areas with no real competition.
Second, useful image size for viewing an image on a computer screen tops out at well under a megabyte. Sending 10 meg images is just a waste, it costs Matt Dralle (Matronics host) money for disc storage, and even more significantly, for bandwidth every time we upload or download an image. I'd suggest reading his FAQs sometime.
Third, you've got a lot of nerve telling someone to just go spend money they may not have. Since we're poking around in others' financial affairs, how much do you donate to Matt each year to maintain this list?
OK; rant mode off...
Charlie
On 2/17/2020 12:12 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Always complaining. 99% of us have a real internet connection and like to see details. Why do we all of need to hear the complaints and give up the resolution so one or two don't have to wait a few seconds. Pay for real internet or quit complaining please.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
|
|
|
|
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:35 am Post subject: wing transport suggestions |
|
|
And we will continue to disagree about access; not just financial, but literal. Yours is an extremely myopic view of conditions outside your 'bubble' of experience. Your experience and opportunity is not the same as *many* others in the world, or within the USA.
Charlie
On 2/17/2020 11:46 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Charlie
One last time then I'm done. Technology has advanced to the point that photo storage and down loading photos is really a non issue. We are now in the video age where video storage and video down load speeds are a concern like photos were maybe as far back as 8-10 years ago. I share your concern for Matt having to store extremely large photos but photo level storage is dirt cheep. I just built a 9TB RAID 5 media server from a NAS box for $400 that could hold app. 9 million 1 MB photos. Matt needs to update his guidelines.
I'm sure you are a wonderful supporter of our Kolb list and Matt's efforts, thank you. I'm not sure what you were really trying to say but you might have seen my name on the contributors list for the last 30+ years? How long has the list been going?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 8:07 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Look, I share your frustration with poor resolution in photos. But there's a difference between a grainy 50KB image and a high res 1MB image (which will fill a computer screen at HD resolution). Jumping to a 10MB image gets you nothing on your screen (except possible frustration with having to scroll to see the whole image), and does indeed cost our generous host more money. Here you go; copied from the FAQ email that Matt sends all of us about once a month:
| Quote: | Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
If you don't like the rules,...well, perhaps this is the wrong sandbox.
In addition to a town of 200K 10 miles away from me, there's a town of about 1500 3.5 miles away that has fiber to the home, but that doesn't help anyone in the area where I live. That's also the case for at least 30% of the rest of the citizens in the USA, as well. Yes, like you, I've seen the commercials for sat based internet, but apparently unlike you, I actually know some people who've tried it. It's great, if you want to download 3 or 4 emails at 4:00 AM on a Tuesday. Then you're out of high speed data for a week or two.
I share your frustration with abbreviated weather coding. And I've been around since the 100 baud days, too. But I've seen reports that there are still weather stations around the world that are still running on teletype grade equipment, and the reason for maintaining the archaic weather codes are to support them. I realize that doesn't fit the rather common US citizen's attitude of "I've got mine; up yours". I guess we should just let those who still depend on teletype delivered weather do without, right? Of course, that teletype speed station might be actually *sending* useful info to *us*...so we'll make allowances for those...
I wasn't aware that there's a high fatality rate from not being able to see detail in an image posted on an internet email list. Dying from not being able to see a picture really is a 1st world problem.
'We' might be well past worrying about a 1MB photo (I've got a 10M/s cell connection now), but that doesn't mean *everyone* is.
Somebody politely and gently pointed out an easy way to *respect the rules of this email list*, not unlike politely asking a smoker to move to the no-smoking section. Some smokers would respond to those requests by calling the non-smoker rude, and of trying to take away their 'freedom' and 'rights'.
Again, since you're so free with spending other people's money, how much have you donated (ever) in support of this list?
Charlie
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On 2/17/2020 2:34 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Well I guess I ruffled a feather. In the summer I live 30 miles from any town over 10,000 people and just got 10MB cable internet last summer. There are options for satellite that are getting less expensive every year. I know it can be difficult to get real internet but there are other options if you look around and talk to people.
I have been around since the days when weather reports were distributed by teletype at a blazing speed of 103 baud. Back then they developed a short hand to deal with the slow speeds. When dial up internet got to 48K baud there was no need for the short hand but it continued. Today they are still sending some weather reports using the shorthand and people occasionally die due to the confusion of improper decoding and most people and weather stations have internet speed well more than the 10MB or ten million baud. The point is we are well past the point where we need to be concerned with a 1 MB photo. There are always going to be people that don't want to move forward. Way too often I can't zoom in enough to see enough detail the person was showing us because it is too compressed. Is someone going to have to die to get the detail we need? In past years I was willing to wait a few extra seconds to get a detailed photo.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 2:44 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Rick,
I'd suggest taking a step back, and doing a little research. Both on real world conditions and on your own attitude.
First, here in the 'great' USA, your figure of 99% broadband coverage is grossly overstated. Even if we use the current (nonsensical) definition of broadband, which the Trump minion has rolled back to include DSL, only 85% have access to 'real' internet.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/185602/broadband-and-dial-up-internet-connection-usage-in-the-us/
And trust me; DSL is *not* real broadband. Real world numbers for true broadband are closer to 50% coverage here in the US. I live ~10 miles from a city of 200K people, on a major highway (with AT&T fiber running in front of my house), and there is currently *no wired internet available* to new subscribers in my area, and my old DSL account barely works. The only reason I have even imitation 'real' broadband is because I got in on an unlimited cellular hotspot plan, which is no longer available to new customers. Even that is barely 'real' compared to those with access to fiber & cable. Many people can't afford to pay for unlimited data plans, especially in areas with no real competition.
Second, useful image size for viewing an image on a computer screen tops out at well under a megabyte. Sending 10 meg images is just a waste, it costs Matt Dralle (Matronics host) money for disc storage, and even more significantly, for bandwidth every time we upload or download an image. I'd suggest reading his FAQs sometime.
Third, you've got a lot of nerve telling someone to just go spend money they may not have. Since we're poking around in others' financial affairs, how much do you donate to Matt each year to maintain this list?
OK; rant mode off...
Charlie
On 2/17/2020 12:12 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Always complaining. 99% of us have a real internet connection and like to see details. Why do we all of need to hear the complaints and give up the resolution so one or two don't have to wait a few seconds. Pay for real internet or quit complaining please.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
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