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johnbowman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 6
Location: baton rouge la
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 Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: Pat Ladd's OH DEAR! event & the "riggin" factor... |
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pat ladd.... so glad u & urs are all ok except for the inevitably dampened spirits. hope u find the means to revive urself quickly & get the thing flying again. as u helplessly re-visit the sequence of events, have u considered the factor that strikes me as the most salient & to me the most surprising, namely the "rigging issue". i have followed the kolbs at sun n fun for many yrs as they outfly every other bird there by many times over, but i've never actually watched the entire "rigging & derigging" process,(assumig that's mother tongue for unfolding & folding the wing primarily). based mostly on the brochures & sales talk at the factory, i had assumed all along it was a very easy, & quick process (maybe 5 minutes with 2 people & up to 10 alone). but when i realized that it was enough of an effort even for an aviator of ur experience, that it actually influenced u to point that it seems to be me to be the key cause of the event. i once heard someone who'd had much experience with the main wing folders (kolb, avid, kitfox) guesstimate that 90% of the owners of these planes never "derig/fold" their wings. that really surprised me cause i'd assumed the folding wing was one of the main, if not the main, sellling point. it was certainly a key attraction for me. of course the strenght & integrity of these kolbs become paramount after that & the fact that they have safely hauled the likes of j hauck & j wmson all over this continent provides unimpeachable confidence & solace for me, especially with the folding wing. though i believe i've heard that neither john ever needs to or does fold his wing.
so i intended to propose this "folding" issue to the respective lists for these planes as one of the informal "polls" we see from time to time(i.e. the recent "first flight" poll which was such fun). so pat, as u reprocess ur "event", any thgts on the role of "riggin/deriggin" . u astutely noted several other big "what ifs" , like weather, sellling the challenger; so if the kolb were really so quick n easy to rig, would u have avoided this unhappy "event"? i for one would appreciate ur retrospective on this particular "what if".
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Mike Schnabel
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Manchester, TN
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: Pat Ladd's OH DEAR! event & the "riggin" factor... |
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Going to need Ken F. here... another poll? Ken, are you up to the task? I actually would be interested in this one too.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
How many fliers never (OK, or rarely) fold their Kolb wings, (as my new friend John H), and how many have to fold the wings every time (or most every time) the plane is set up (like me for now)...
The way John H has is Mk3 set up, all bolted together does take some stress out of the preflight process. Just as many points to check in the preflight, just less doubt you left our a clip pin here or there...
OK, so it is a slow week with everyone gone to OSH, (where I should be right now, but that’s another story!)... is there a poll here do you think?
Just wondering....
Mike S
Manchester TN
Firestar 2 503
do not archive
Jbowaaf(at)wmconnect.com wrote:
| Quote: | pat ladd.... so glad u & urs are all ok except for the inevitably dampened spirits. hope u find the means to revive urself quickly & get the thing flying again. as u helplessly re-visit the sequence of events, have u considered the factor that strikes me as the most salient & to me the most surprising, namely the "rigging issue". i have followed the kolbs at sun n fun for many yrs as they outfly every other bird there by many times over, but i've never actually watched the entire "rigging & derigging" process,(assumig that's mother tongue for unfolding & folding the wing primarily). based mostly on the brochures & sales talk at the factory, i had assumed all along it was a very easy, & quick process (maybe 5 minutes with 2 people & up to 10 alone). but when i realized that it was enough of an effort even for an aviator of ur experience, that it actually influenced u to point that it seems to be me to be the key cause of the event. i once heard someone who'd had much experience with the main wing folders (kolb, avid, kitfox) guesstimate that 90% of the owners of these planes never "derig/fold" their wings. that really surprised me cause i'd assumed the folding wing was one of the main, if not the main, sellling point. it was certainly a key attraction for me. of course the strenght & integrity of these kolbs become paramount after that & the fact that they have safely hauled the likes of j hauck & j wmson all over this continent provides unimpeachable confidence & solace for me, especially with the folding wing. though i believe i've heard that neither john ever needs to or does fold his wing.
so i intended to propose this "folding" issue to the respective lists for these planes as one of the informal "polls" we see from time to time(i.e. the recent "first flight" poll which was such fun). so pat, as u reprocess ur "event", any thgts on the role of "riggin/deriggin" . u astutely noted several other big "what ifs" , like weather, sellling the challenger; so if the kolb were really so quick n easy to rig, would u have avoided this unhappy "event"? i for one would appreciate ur retrospective on this particular "what if". |
See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40762/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview] Check it out.[/url]
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:31 pm Post subject: Pat Ladd's OH DEAR! event & the "riggin" factor... |
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I never fold the wings on my MKIII, didn't want to fold the wings, and
did not install the wing pins or wing support cross tube near the
horizontal stab so I wouldn't be tempted to. Before I built my MKIII, we
had a fellow from Baltimore fly his Kolb down to a nearby airport for a
fly-in, and he lamented scraping the leading edges of his wings every
time he folded it and moved it, since they are so close to the ground. I
decided then and there that instead of folding the wings, I would remove
them and set them aside or where ever they needed to be. Haven't skinned
one yet, and it only requires removing one more bolt. But once a year
the wings get taken off and hung from ceiling racks while the airplane
goes into the garage for it's condition inspection, and it is so much
easier to work on with the wings totally off.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Mike Schnabel wrote:
| Quote: | Going to need Ken F. here... another poll? Ken, are you up to the
task? I actually would be interested in this one too.
How many fliers never (OK, or rarely) fold their Kolb wings, (as my
new friend John H), and how many have to fold the wings every time (or
most every time) the plane is set up (like me for now)...
The way John H has is Mk3 set up, all bolted together does take some
stress out of the preflight process. Just as many points to check in
the preflight, just less doubt you left our a clip pin here or there...
OK, so it is a slow week with everyone gone to OSH, (where I should be
right now, but that’s another story!)... is there a poll here do you
think?
Just wondering....
Mike S
Manchester TN
Firestar 2 503
ee the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40762/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview>
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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Dave Bigelow
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: Re: Pat Ladd's OH DEAR! event & the |
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| Quote: | | so i intended to propose this "folding" issue to the respective lists for these planes as one of the informal "polls" we see from time to time |
I rig and derig my Firestar by myself every time I fly it. It takes 20 minutes from roll out to being ready to start. I've never had any problem with scraping the leading edge of the wings, and I don't need wing stands. I do use a small piece of foam to lay the wing tips on before setting the main spar pin and lifting the wing to install the strut pin.
If you have to add rolling on and off a trailer to the process, it will take longer. Also, I'm sure the Xtra wing is enough heavier that it would be difficult for one person to lift it to attach the strut. Bet there are guys on this list that do self-rig the Xtra!
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Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E |
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:15 am Post subject: Pat Ladd's OH DEAR! event & the "riggin" factor... |
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Bet there are guys on this list that do self-rig the Xtra!>>
Hi Dave,
I am sure there are. I have only had to rig twice and already I had devised
a hook on a stick to pull the safety pins from the unreachable tail fitting.
Luckily there was a barrel in the yard which, with a Kolb cushion on top
brought the wing tip almost to rigging height. It wasn`t really a problem.
Now that I have sold my Challenger (I don`t have the cheque yet) I had hoped
never to have derigged again so I had not really applied myself to making
things easier.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:37 am Post subject: Pat Ladd's OH DEAR! event & the "riggin" factor... |
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if the kolb were really so quick n easy to rig,>>
Hi,
The Kolb is not difficult to rig etc. but as I had the Challenger there to fly all ready to go there was no pressure to rig. There is a certain amount of knack as there is in everything and having 2 people makes it easier. After many years flying gliders rigging etc is not new to me.
The rigging was not a factor in the accident. That was just my stupidity.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: Pat Ladd's OH DEAR! event & the "riggin" factor... |
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| Quote: |
> so i intended to propose this "folding" issue to the respective lists
> for these planes as one of the informal "polls" we see from time to
> time
I fold my MkIIIc once a year for storage in my basement workshop. The
tail
has to be held at least two feet off the ground because of the uphill
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slope
to the door threshold. First time I did get a slight leading edge
bruise.
My brother helps with the process.
-BB do not archive
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Eugene Zimmerman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:25 am Post subject: Pat Ladd's OH DEAR! event & the "riggin" factor... |
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On Jul 24, 2006, at 6:36 AM, pat ladd wrote:
| Quote: | That was just my stupidity.
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Hey Pat,
We all have more than enough of that characteristic and have had to
pay the tuition to master it.
Welcome to the club. Bro, John is president. <g>
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Pat Ladd's OH DEAR! event & the |
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Richard,
Could you send some pics of your ceiling racks? I built some this weekend out of pulleys and 2x4's... it sort of works but it requires 2 peeps to oporate....
Thanks,
Mike
Nothing special, right now it just supports a bunch of RC planes. But since you asked... Each wing lays on two lengths of PVC pipe, on at the root, one close to the tip. For the one close to the tip, one end is tied to a hook in the ceiling, the other end is stuck through a loop of rope. Lift the loop to the side, and let the PVC hang straight down. The wife and I carry the wing into the garage, raise the wing up high, and I lift the root end up over and lay it on one piece of PVC.
Then I go to her end and raise/swing the PVC up, raising the wing out of her hands, and slip the loop of rope over the end of the PVC. Caution: don't slide the PVC along the wing, it will heat from friction and scuff the Stits.
Disregard the aluminum tubes and model airplanes in the attachment, all we care about is the white PVC pipe & rope. See? Nothing special.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
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