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Alternator Mod to External Control

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:27 pm Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

At 02:59 AM 4/21/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Bob,



 Recently there has been a bit of talk re using an controlling internally controlled alternators. It is very easy to modify them.



 In Kitplanes for Nov 2019 I had published an article on how how to modify an alternator (Nippon Denso) with virtually no surgery; and it can be easily restored to standard. Doing this totally eliminates all the hassles with the internally regulated unit. Just use the B&C Regulator.



 Graeme Coates



 Melbourne, Australia 	




   I've contacted Marc Cook at Kitplanes who has graciously

   approved a reprint on AeroElectric.com.



   Interested readers can access this nicely illustrated article at:



  http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/NiponDenso_Modification_Nov_2019_Kitplanes.pdf

 

 



 

 

   Bob . . .

Dan Fritz

Joined: 02 Apr 2020
Posts: 16

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control

Thanks Bob, you read my mind!

Dan Fritz

Joined: 02 Apr 2020
Posts: 16

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control

So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead.  Would this then effectively separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection?  What am I missing?

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:00 am Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>



 So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead.  Would this then effectively separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection?  What am I missing? 	


   I'm not intimately familiar with the

   brush-holder configuration . . . it's

   been some years since I put my hands

   on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion

   appears to have merit but I would have

   concerns about the electrical integrity

   of a made-up joint held with a plastic

   screw.



 

 

   Bob . . .

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:34 am Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

Interestingly enough, I had just made this mod to a Denso alternator about a week ago, but I had never seen the article Bob references.

I contemplated using a nylon screw (the screw is a metric 3 or 4 mm) but rejected the idea based on the fact that the screw in question is one of two that mounts the brush rig.  I deemed that a nylon screw was not strong enough for that duty.  Therefore I used a couple of nylon shoulder washers on the existing steel screw to electrically isolate.

Also,

I rejected the Denso alternator altogether because I found a Ford alternator (from 84 Bronco) that was designed for external regulation.

-Jeff

                  

                                                                    On Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 12:14:22 PM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:                 

                 



                 



                   At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>



 So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead.  Would this then effectively separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection?  What am I missing? 	


   I'm not intimately familiar with the

   brush-holder configuration . . . it's

   been some years since I put my hands

   on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion

   appears to have merit but I would have

   concerns about the electrical integrity

   of a made-up joint held with a plastic

   screw.



 

 

    Bob . . .

kjashton(at)vnet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:00 pm Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

Hereâ€™s another way to mod the alternator, FWIW.  It involves desoldering one of the brush wires and sleeving a replacement wire with shrink wrap where it goes through the brush hole in the back of the brushholder.  That serves the same purpose as the insulated screw which isolates that side of the brush.  The brush holders are cheap so you can experiment.

https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/18661-kents-long-ez-project/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-61828

-Kent



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:57 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 

 At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote:

> 

> 

> So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead.  Would this then effectively separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection?  What am I missing?

 

   I'm not intimately familiar with the

   brush-holder configuration . . . it's

   been some years since I put my hands

   on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion

   appears to have merit but I would have

   concerns about the electrical integrity

   of a made-up joint held with a plastic

   screw.

 

 

   Bob . . .

argoldman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:33 pm Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

Kent,

Thank you for your description and photos of your conversion

It may be my aging eyes but the text in the photos is impossible to read. The device is in perfect focus  indicating a possible depth of field problem. If you are using a cell phone focus on the tags. In any case more light will create a greater depth of field and get everything in focus

Thanks again

Rich

Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> wrote:

 Hereâ€™s another way to mod the alternator, FWIW.  It involves desoldering one of the brush wires and sleeving a replacement wire with shrink wrap where it goes through the brush hole in the back of the brushholder.  That serves the same purpose as the insulated screw which isolates that side of the brush.  The brush holders are cheap so you can experiment.

 https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/18661-kents-long-ez-project/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-61828

 -Kent

> On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:57 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

> 

> At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead.  Would this then effectively separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection?  What am I missing?

> 

>  I'm not intimately familiar with the

>  brush-holder configuration . . . it's

>  been some years since I put my hands

>  on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion

>  appears to have merit but I would have

>  concerns about the electrical integrity

>  of a made-up joint held with a plastic

>  screw.

> 

> 

>  Bob . . .

>

Dan Fritz

Joined: 02 Apr 2020
Posts: 16

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control

Hello All,

I got some non-conductive glass-filled nylon screws (m4 x 10) from McMaster Carr today to test my proposed alternator mod.  Photos of my mod are attached below.  The mod was extremely simple, just remove the brush holder, loosen the three regulator mount screws, slip a fiber washer between the regulator mount and B-Lead connection, drop the brush holder back in place and replace one of the two screws with the glass-filled nylon one.  The whole operation took about 10 minutes to do the first time (probably about 3 minutes after that).



The field terminal is now isolated from the B-lead and appears to work correctly.  I wasn't able to spin the alternator up enough on the bench to ensure it still charges correctly and stops charging with removal of the field voltage.  I'll have to try that once the engine is running or I find a better bench setup.  



Glass filled nylon screws appear to have a tensile strength of 25 ksi and is supposed to be good to 300 degrees F.  I plan to disassemble and inspect after about 10 hours of engine run time to see how the screw is faring.  If it looks like the screw won't survive, I'll buy a $20 ceramic screw to replace it.



I'll let the group know if this is successful once I can get a solid test of the alternator accomplished.  If so, the mod is dead simple and will give full control of the regulator, allowing the traditional crowbar OVP to work as designed.

Alternator Mod.pdf

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Alternator Mod.pdf

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unitink72(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:47 am Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

Does anyone know which alt is modified in the article?Â  I tried doing a quick search for Denso alts that they still manufacture new but didn't have any luck.

So far my likely best cadidate for my main alt is from a 95 Dodge van.Â  Lots of amps, external regulation out of the box.Â  It does spin the wrong way but thats not a deal breaker for me.

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:36 am Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

At 10:44 AM 4/23/2020, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Does anyone know which alt is modified in the article?

 I tried doing a quick search for Denso alts that they

 still manufacture new but didn't have any luck. 	




   That article is generally applicable to

   all ND alternators. The arrangement of

   rear-end parts is pretty much common to

   the full range of products.



   For the most part, auto parts stores

   will only carry remanufactured alternators.

   Modern re-manufacturing methods are quite

   good. Reman alternators are generally as good as

   new.



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  So far my likely best cadidate for my main alt is

 from a 95 Dodge van.Â  Lots of amps, external regulation

 out of the box. 	


   Do you NEED 'lots of amps'? There are few

   single engine aircraft that need more than 40A.

   30A runs the airplane and 10A reserve charges

   the battery. 40A alternators should weigh in

   at under 7 pounds.



 

   Bob . . .

kjashton(at)vnet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:55 am Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

There are dozensâ€”maybe hundreds--of Denso alternators with slightly different mounts and shapes.  A Denso 100211012711 (55 amp) (Honda civic '84-'87, Lester # 14747) will work but it doesnâ€™t fit a Lycoming standard alternator bracket.  I make the bracket out of 1/4â€ mild steel angle.  Cut two pieces of angle.  Trim and drill for the long alternator mounting bolt, then cut the undrilled legs of the angle to fit the engine, weld them together and drill to match the case holes.



I get them from the junkyard, replace the bearings, brushes and clean up the commutator(?) ring.  I use an aftermarket pulley so they donâ€™t turn so fast.  There are small Denso models for Kubota tractors and Suzuki Smurai that will also work

-Kent



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 23, 2020, at 11:44 AM, Josh Tinkham <unitink72(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 Does anyone know which alt is modified in the article?  I tried doing a quick search for Denso alts that they still manufacture new but didn't have any luck.

 

 So far my likely best cadidate for my main alt is from a 95 Dodge van.  Lots of amps, external regulation out of the box.  It does spin the wrong way but thats not a deal breaker for me.

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:06 am Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

Josh,

The alternator I got was from a 1978 Suzuki Samurai and is identical (as far as I can tell) to the one in the Kit Planes article.

Also, I believe that Dodge/Chrysler alternators have 'A'-circuit fields.  I'm not certain about this, perhaps another lister can confirm?  The ideal setup is to have a 'B'-circuit field.  

In that Kit Planes article - that Denso alternator is converted from an internally-regulated 'A'-circuit to and externally-regulated 'B'- circuit.

Field Circuit :

A-Circuit - has the regulator in the ground side of the field circuit.

B-Circuit - has the regulator in the 'high' side of the field circuit.





                  

                                                                    On Thursday, April 23, 2020, 08:56:29 AM PDT, Josh Tinkham <unitink72(at)gmail.com> wrote:                 

                 



                 



                 



Does anyone know which alt is modified in the article?  I tried doing a quick search for Denso alts that they still manufacture new but didn't have any luck.

So far my likely best cadidate for my main alt is from a 95 Dodge van.  Lots of amps, external regulation out of the box.  It does spin the wrong way but thats not a deal breaker for me.

unitink72(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:52 pm Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

With an IFR panel and EFI, my math comes out to 50 amps usage worst case with the landing lights and pitot heat on at the same time.Â  I'm also considering seat heaters.Â  I understand that a max worst-case shouldn't be my amp requirement.Â  But I also don't think 40 amps will cut it.Â  60-70 is the range I'd like to see.

I did not know about the A/B field circuit difference.Â  Will explore that more, thanks Jeff.

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:51 am Post subject: Alternator Mod to External Control

To: Roger&Jean <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>

 Subject: Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control

 X-Attachments: C:\Users\User\Downloads\2 wire field.jpg;



 At 08:19 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,



 I didn't see any electrical diagram to show how the 2 new wires are connected to the system.



 Roger 	


   This particular mod converts the stock alternator

   into a 'universal' field configuration and is

   wired like this:



 



 

   Bob . . .

2_wire_field.jpg

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