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Original Firestar

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smedley

Joined: 04 Feb 2020
Posts: 18
Location: Hatfield PA

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:24 am Post subject: Original Firestar

Hi All,



I built my original Firestar in 1986 and 87. I flew it until the year 2000 when it was damaged in a fire. Not too bad, but at the time I was too busy to repair it and lately I just haven't had the gumption. I'm thinking about getting around to doing something. Has anyone been playing around with the new covering materialÂ that is easier to apply and 20% lighter?

Thanks,

Ed

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:02 am Post subject: Original Firestar

I think Richard Pike was doing something, and I recall somebody painting with latex house paint diluted with antifreeze.  Maybe check Richard's site, for a start.



                                                                        Bill Sullivan

                                                                        Tarboro, NC

            

                                                                                        On Thursday, January 14, 2021, 09:24:08 AM EST, Edward Bonsell <smedley945(at)gmail.com> wrote:                

                



                



                Hi All,



I built my original Firestar in 1986 and 87. I flew it until the year 2000 when it was damaged in a fire. Not too bad, but at the time I was too busy to repair it and lately I just haven't had the gumption. I'm thinking about getting around to doing something. Has anyone been playing around with the new covering material that is easier to apply and 20% lighter?

Thanks,

Ed

Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:05 am Post subject: Original Firestar

If resale is a possibility...and getting a fair price...then Poly fiber might be the way to go...Repair can be difficult when using the poly urethane varieties..Herb



Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.





â€â€â€â€â€â€â€ Original Message â€â€â€â€â€â€â€



 On Thursday, January 14, 2021 11:02 AM, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> wrote:



 



 	  Quote: 	
		  I think Richard Pike was doing something, and I recall somebody painting with latex house paint diluted with antifreeze.  Maybe check Richard's site, for a start.



 Bill Sullivan



 Tarboro, NC





On Thursday, January 14, 2021, 09:24:08 AM EST, Edward Bonsell <smedley945(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Hi All,



I built my original Firestar in 1986 and 87. I flew it until the year 2000 when it was damaged in a fire. Not too bad, but at the time I was too busy to repair it and lately I just haven't had the gumption. I'm thinking about getting around to doing something. Has anyone been playing around with the new covering material that is easier to apply and 20% lighter?



Thanks,



Ed

qhergt

Joined: 22 Jul 2018
Posts: 1

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:33 am Post subject: Original Firestar

A friend of mine did a bunch of research on this.    http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/latex.html

  From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net>

 Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 9:02:25 AM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: Original Firestar  

  I think Richard Pike was doing something, and I recall somebody painting with latex house paint diluted with antifreeze. Maybe check Richard's site, for a start.

 Bill Sullivan

 Tarboro, NC

   On Thursday, January 14, 2021, 09:24:08 AM EST, Edward Bonsell <smedley945(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

   Hi All, 

 I built my original Firestar in 1986 and 87. I flew it until the year 2000 when it was damaged in a fire. Not too bad, but at the time I was too busy to repair it and lately I just haven't had the gumption. I'm thinking about getting around to doing something.  Has anyone been playing around with the new covering material that is easier to apply and 20% lighter?

 Thanks,

 Ed

Jerry-TS-MkII

Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 79
Location: Indiana

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:48 pm Post subject: Original Firestar

I just read the full article "Painting a Fly Baby w Latex house paint"..

and there were two things that caught my attention, or concern.



Armor-All has silicone and a few other chemicals that are super

problematic when it comes to spray painting, and a major cause of orange

peel.  I cannot imagine putting that on aircraft fabric, and worse, if it

needs to be repaired later.



He also mentioned washing rags, and I'd assume drying them in the normal

laundry equipment.  Dryer sheets and fabric softeners are known to also

have silicones.. and to leave their residue in the the washer and dryer.  I

would be super hesitant to use either one of those products anywhere near a

important paint job.

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:27 pm Post subject: Original Firestar

On 1/14/2021 4:50 PM, 1957grnchev(at)bluemarble.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I just read the full article "Painting a Fly Baby w Latex house paint"..

 and there were two things that caught my attention, or concern.



 Armor-All has silicone and a few other chemicals that are super

 problematic when it comes to spray painting, and a major cause of orange

 peel.  I cannot imagine putting that on aircraft fabric, and worse, if it

 needs to be repaired later.



 He also mentioned washing rags, and I'd assume drying them in the normal

 laundry equipment.  Dryer sheets and fabric softeners are known to also

 have silicones.. and to leave their residue in the the washer and dryer.  I

 would be super hesitant to use either one of those products anywhere near a

 important paint job.

There are easier ways to 'go latex'. Try reading through
	


http://wienerdogaero.com/Latex.php



I followed his processes on a Twinstar (but with minimal sanding and 

zero final polishing), and it came out looking every bit as good as 

fabric finished with 'traditional' finishes.



He presents in the forums at OSH each year.



Charlie



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_________________
Charlie

skidookid

Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 7

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:23 pm Post subject: Original Firestar

Interesting.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Thursday, January 14, 2021, 12:06 PM, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		                    I think Richard Pike was doing something, and I recall somebody painting with latex house paint diluted with antifreeze.  Maybe check Richard's site, for a start.                                                                        Bill Sullivan                                                                        Tarboro, NC            

                                                                                        On Thursday, January 14, 2021, 09:24:08 AM EST, Edward Bonsell <smedley945(at)gmail.com> wrote:                

                

                

                Hi All,

I built my original Firestar in 1986 and 87. I flew it until the year 2000 when it was damaged in a fire. Not too bad, but at the time I was too busy to repair it and lately I just haven't had the gumption. I'm thinking about getting around to doing something. Has anyone been playing around with the new covering material that is easier to apply and 20% lighter?



Thanks,



Ed



            

                



 	  Quote:

_________________
roger trombley

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Original Firestar

Latex painting airplanes: one easy, one a pain in the butt, and a War Story.



First time I did it was back in the late 80's, I had a Maxair Hummer that the sails were about to go bad, modified the wing so that it had a lightweight but sort of conventional rib structure and covered it with lightweight (glider) dacron from Aircraft Spruce. Don't know if they still sell that weight or not.

Attached it in the usual way with Stits Poly-Tak. Sprayed all the fabric with Sears Weather Beater Black latex paint, thinned with water enough to spray well and penetrate to both sides of the fabric, as that it how you make it stick, it has to be thin enough to be on both sides of the Dacron. Used a regular Sears quart pressure pot sprayer that I had used over the years to paint cars with lacquer, etc, don't remember how much PSI, whatever it took to make it spray right.

The parts I wanted to be yellow, I went back over & sprayed white, and then again with the yellow. It went pretty well, the weight was about 8 pounds heavier than with the original slip on sails and tube ribs, and it was dirt cheap. I think I had $300 in it, it looked good and worked fine.

One thing you have to careful of; the Hummer's wings folded together, you had to be careful not to hang them up touching, or the latex on one wing would bond to the latex on the other and it would pull off.



The second airplane was Ed's FSII, & for whatever reason the latex we were using (don't remember the brand) did not want to cooperate with the Stits fabric. Thinning with water wasn't doing quite right, tried using windshield washer fluid - so/so, nothing worked really great. Maybe the paint brand? Maybe because the standard weight Stits was heavier and it didn't respond the same? Don't know.

We got some ex-tend (I think it was called) from the dealer as the preferred thinner/ drying time extender, and eventually we got it looking really great, but for whatever reason, it was a terrible hassle. One thing I remember was that we sprayed it with a HVLP sprayer, don't know if that helped or hurt.



Now on a totally different and unrelated topic ~ AKA War Story

Eventually I sold the Hummer , it got sold again, and again, and then ended up belonging to a guy  on the coast of NC. When I sold it, it was registered and had an Airworthiness Certificate, but it probably could have been made to make Part 103, seems like it weighed about 162 pounds if I remember right. It still had all the original U/L structure in it.

The guy on the coast modified it; took off the 277 & replaced it with a 503, and added a second seat. The wings & tail were unmodified, that was how I first recognized it in the video.

 

I about had a cow. The fool had created a death trap, and was flying his family and friends around in it.

Original gross weight was under 600 pounds, and VNE was 65 mph.

The wings had 1 3/4" leading edge tubes,  1 1/2" trailing edge tubes, no internal drag/anti drag bracing, just flying/landing wires attached at the wing compression struts, two per side. No way there was proper structure to support what he was doing with it, and I knew he had not modified it or beefed it up, because the paint job was unmolested.



I found it one night on Youtube, he had a bunch of videos, one of which showed him taking off with a large passenger, the camera was pointing at the passenger from over the pilots shoulder, and during the climbout, the fabric in the first rib bay split fore and aft. Front spar to rear spar. The passenger looked like "Is it supposed to do this?" The flight continued on for several minutes.



The next day I called Southern Region FSDO and told the man what I had seen, that I was the builder, that the airplane was unairworthy as a 2 seater, and suggested that they might want to look into it. Never heard back from him, but about a week later, all the videos of my old airplane were off YouTube...



I'm all for minding my own business, but when some idiot modifies an airplane that I built in such a way that it is guaranteed to kill some innocent passenger, and give "ultralights/homebuilts" a black eye; naw - that don't work for me.

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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Robpen5557

Joined: 17 Aug 2018
Posts: 5

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:22 am Post subject: Original Firestar

Richard, thanks Iâ€™m with you.   If you had a hand in making something and

someone foolishly tries to make a change.   All rules are off.    Thanks

Richard.



Robert Lobdell

Waskom, TX



On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 8:50 PM Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

wrote:



[quote] 



 Latex painting airplanes: one easy, one a pain in the butt, and a War

 Story.



 First time I did it was back in the late 80's, I had a Maxair Hummer that

 the sails were about to go bad, modified the wing so that it had a

 lightweight but sort of conventional rib structure and covered it with

 lightweight (glider) dacron from Aircraft Spruce. Don't know if they still

 sell that weight or not.

 Attached it in the usual way with Stits Poly-Tak. Sprayed all the fabric

 with Sears Weather Beater Black latex paint, thinned with water enough to

 spray well and penetrate to both sides of the fabric, as that it how you

 make it stick, it has to be thin enough to be on both sides of the Dacron

Sluther

Joined: 19 Jan 2021
Posts: 2

Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Original Firestar

Iâ€™m guessing you are referring to oratex from better fabric.com. Iâ€™m redoing my firestar. Watched lots of YouTube with people doing the covering, looked just as easy as anything else and you donâ€™t have to spend the time to paint and seal. Itâ€™s all-in-one. 



That comes at a price, literally. They quoted me 3X the price for materials that I got from Stewart systems. They claim for comparison, after you buy the spray booth, compressor, spray guns, etc, youâ€™ll be close. Not sure that is even very accurate, but even if it was, at the end Iâ€™d have the spray booth, compressor, and spray gun and a finished plane. 



Iâ€™m ok with not having some fancy paint job, so their color selection was fine with me. Iâ€™d love the weight reduction too which is the main reason I wanted to go that way... as well as not having to spray my plane 8 times! And Iâ€™m retire and still think my time is pretty valuable (my wife disagrees).



I would so use oratex if I had the money to spend but I canâ€™t get over the fact thatâ€™s itâ€™s 3X more expensive. My time isnâ€™t worth that. Iâ€™ll have to spray my plane. Of course itâ€™s an easy call since I have the spray equipment.

smedley

Joined: 04 Feb 2020
Posts: 18
Location: Hatfield PA

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:47 am Post subject: Original Firestar

Hi Guys, and Girls?,



Are there any Girls on the list?Â 

Thanks for the responses about covering. I now have enough gumption and, not wanting to pay any attentionÂ to the cr*p going on outÂ there, I started to reassemble my Original Friestar.

I hope you all are well.

Happy New Year !

Ed

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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:51 am Post subject: Original Firestar

Ed- Enjoy.  I had never done it before, and I found Poly Finer easy to use.  Smelly, but easy.  If I had to do it again, I think I would paint with the latex method.  Covering and gluing was okay, but sealing and painting was very stinky.



                                                                             Bill Sullivan

            

                                                                                        On Friday, January 22, 2021, 10:47:40 AM EST, Edward Bonsell <smedley945(at)gmail.com> wrote:                

                



                



                Hi Guys, and Girls?,



Are there any Girls on the list? 

Thanks for the responses about covering. I now have enough gumption and, not wanting to pay any attention to the cr*p going on out there, I started to reassemble my Original Friestar.

I hope you all are well.

Happy New Year !

Ed

Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:05 am Post subject: Original Firestar

Interestingly...poly fiber products are virtually the same ...Acetone,Mek,Alcohol and poly vinyl acetate..(glue)  with tint of one sort or the other. Seems that gallons of that stuff, poly brush,poly spray and poly tone are over 100 bucks now..I last bought two years ago at 90 dollars and back in the early 90's at less than 30 dollars..



   What I suggest  is...as one who buys and sells...sell ability is much better, if the buyer is informed, when using a standard finishing method.  I might use a good house paint on my next plane(Firestar II) since I will be keeping it... Base coat /clear coat seems to hold up well also...Well applied, looks as good as the most expensive two part paints...though expensive also..  Herb 



Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.





â€â€â€â€â€â€â€ Original Message â€â€â€â€â€â€â€



 On Friday, January 22, 2021 9:50 AM, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> wrote:



 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Ed- Enjoy.  I had never done it before, and I found Poly Finer easy to use.  Smelly, but easy.  If I had to do it again, I think I would paint with the latex method.  Covering and gluing was okay, but sealing and painting was very stinky.



 Bill Sullivan





On Friday, January 22, 2021, 10:47:40 AM EST, Edward Bonsell <smedley945(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Hi Guys, and Girls?,



Are there any Girls on the list? 



Thanks for the responses about covering. I now have enough gumption and, not wanting to pay any attention to the cr*p going on out there, I started to reassemble my Original Friestar.



I hope you all are well.



Happy New Year !



Ed

flycolt45(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:56 am Post subject: Original Firestar

Hey Ed 

 

  Good to see you still flying

  Jim

 

 

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