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Using E-10 in IO-540

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docclv(at)windstream.net
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540

Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the 

fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is 

there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with 

8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing?  Does any one know when 

mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof?  Doc

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flyboy(at)gmail.com
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540

I'd be really worried about the vapor pressure.  I run 91 unleaded with the Peterson STC in my Cherokee 180 and have had a couple instances where the fuel starts boiling in the float bowl on takeoff.  Happened on hot days, but the plane was unflyable when it happened.  I could make it run with a severely leaned mixture, but only at lower power settings. And that's with ethanol free unleaded.  I'd suspect that E-10 is likely to have an even higher vapor pressure than E-0.  I now keep one tank with at least half 100LL in it when it's hot out.  It's never a problem after takeoff.  Obviously things are different with the higher pressures of a fuel injection system, but unless you have a fuel return line you might have problems...



On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:19 AM Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)>

 

 Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the 

 fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is 

 there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with 

 8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing?  Does any one know when 

 mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof?  Doc

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Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:33 am Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540

On 9/19/2021 12:15 PM, Doc wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps 

 the fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) 

 is there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 

 with 8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing?  Does any one 

 know when mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof?  Doc

My conversation with the factory tech was over a decade ago, and he said 
	


that the materials had been updated for several years prior to our 

conversation. He was very open in discussing the matter verbally on the 

phone at that time, but it was pretty clear (for obvious liability 

reasons) that it wouldn't be put in writing. I wish I could give you a 

date, but I don't remember him giving a specific date. He basically said 

that the change was driven by the fact that the original materials just 

weren't available any more. Since those pumps are derived from (likely 

identical to, in some cases) automotive and other ground/water bound 

engine pumps, my interpretation was that the diaphragm makers had all 

switched to E-tolerant materials for the much larger ground-bound market.



My personal opinion (I'm not a chemist or materials guy) is that there's 

little risk to aluminum from 10% gasohol as long as water is kept out of 

the mix. That's based on reading a fair amount of stuff written by 

people who are supposed to be experts in the field and aren't 

particularly susceptible to aviation old hangar tales, so are just 

looking at the chemistry. There's a lot written about the subject if you 

do an internet search for something like, 'will ethanol attack 

aluminum', and filter out the random forum posts from people who give 

'first hand accounts' without full disclosure of all factors, like a 

half full tank sitting open to the air for 2 years unused, and then 

finding corrosion inside. The papers that do talk about aluminum 

reacting to ethanol seem to be talking about storing near-pure ethanol; 

not 10% gasohol. There was a 'squadron' of RVs from one of the corn belt 

states a number of years ago that were flying on something like E-95; 

near pure ethanol, to promote ethanol use. No idea on what, if anything, 

they did to protect aluminum tanks/lines.



Not sure which fuel sensor would be susceptible. The Floscan flow 

sensors are used in all sorts of non-flying applications, as are 

traditional & newer 3wire fuel pressure sensors.



FWIW,



Charlie



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Charlie

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:41 am Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540

My one problem was also with a carb'd       engine. I agree that it's more difficult, with narrower margins,       when running a carb. But remember, the 'vapor pressure' even on       the worst gas is around 13psi (at)100 degrees. So the pressure in an       injected engine is way higher than that, all the way to the       spider. Individual injector lines have very little pressure, but       the mixture lever seems to be able to account for any remaining       issues. Electronic injection maintains 40psi+ all the way to the       injectors. More and more alt engine guys are running 'dead end'       systems, with the regulator behind the firewall and only fuel       going into the engine ever sees the hot side of the firewall. All       modern cars I'm aware of use dead end fuel systems.

       

        Charlie

       

       On 9/19/2021 12:35 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                I'd be really worried about the vapor pressure.  I         run 91 unleaded with the Peterson STC in my Cherokee 180 and         have had a couple instances where the fuel starts boiling in the         float bowl on takeoff.  Happened on hot days, but the plane was         unflyable when it happened.  I could make it run with a severely         leaned mixture, but only at lower power settings. And that's         with ethanol free unleaded.  I'd suspect that E-10 is likely to         have an even higher vapor pressure than E-0.  I now keep one         tank with at least half 100LL in it when it's hot out.  It's         never a problem after takeoff.  Obviously things are different         with the higher pressures of a fuel injection system, but unless         you have a fuel return line you might have problems...

       

                On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:19           AM Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)> wrote:

         

          	  Quote: 	
		  -->           RV10-List message posted by: Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)>

           

           Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and           perhaps the 

           fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol           proof) is 

           there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel           540 with 

           8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing?  Does any one           know when 

           mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof?  Doc

         	
       

     	
     

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_________________
Charlie

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:12 pm Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540

The problem with alcohol is that it absorbs moisture really well. The purest you can buy at the drug store is 91%, because it isn't economical to get the rest of the moisture out. After it sits in your tank, even in Arizona, for a few days it is likely to be down to 70% or less. At those ratios it can start corroding your aluminum. I don't know that proseal is all that alcohol resistant. Mooney puts a sealer over the proseal to protect it but you RV tanks are just straight proseal. Older versions of proseal would soften up a lot when exposed to mogas. I think the current stuff is okay with mogas, but still wouldn't use 91 or 93 pump gas unless it would be consumed in a single flight, within a few days, whether it had alcohol or not. 	  Quote: 	
		   	




On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:19 AM Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)>

 

 Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the 

 fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is 

 there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with 

 8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing?  Does any one know when 

 mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof?  Doc

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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:45 am Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540

Kelly(I couldn’t resist)

The problem with alcohol is if it gets its way to the pilot brain…

Carlos

Enviado do meu iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		  No dia 20/09/2021, às 03:18, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> escreveu:



The problem with alcohol is that it absorbs moisture really well. The purest you can buy at the drug store is 91%, because it isn't economical to get the rest of the moisture out. After it sits in your tank, even in Arizona, for a few days it is likely to be down to 70% or less. At those ratios it can start corroding your aluminum. I don't know that proseal is all that alcohol resistant. Mooney puts a sealer over the proseal to protect it but you RV tanks are just straight proseal. Older versions of proseal would soften up a lot when exposed to mogas. I think the current stuff is okay with mogas, but still wouldn't use 91 or 93 pump gas unless it would be consumed in a single flight, within a few days, whether it had alcohol or not. 	  Quote: 	
		   	




On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:19 AM Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)>

 

 Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the 

 fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is 

 there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with 

 8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing?  Does any one know when 

 mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof?  Doc

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 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

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 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

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