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Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:51 am Post subject: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

Hello,



Last weekend I had a failure of the 1 inch ID fuel coupling hose for the vent line at the top of the tank. The interior of the hose had swollen near the interface between the fitting and the PE boss in the tank (I assume there was contact with gasoline at this interface) and pulled out. But now I am concerned about the pickups at the bottom of the tank since a failure there means bye bye all fuel (except for 2.5 gallons). I checked the ones at the bottom of the tank and they look fine with no leaks but I am now concerned about the suitability of these coupling hoses.



When I got my old kit I replaced these couplings with hoses like the old ones in the kit (red stripe, same braiding, thickness, etc). I got high quality USCG approved but they are Type A2 (not for continuous contact with gasoline). Only thing with same characteristics and after all, red stripe as in the old couplings is generally in A2 filler hose.



Of course I could go to Europa to order these couplings but for something like this I think I should try to spec something here in the US. Any hints as to what people have used and were to buy? Type A1 (or A1-15) hose would be better but the ones I found online look like stiff heavily braided hoses so not sure they would work.



I also wonder how hard it will be to replace them? Will the fittings in the tank come out? Not looking forward to that job 



Ideas?

Chris

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

To help determine suitability this are the specs of the hose I used:



This Novaflex 355 series is a special order soft wall A2 fuel fill hose that is also marine/coast guard certified to SAEJ1527 Spec. This is a real sturdy and versatile fuel filler hose. Reinforcement is nylon and is much more malleable than the wire reinforced hoses. Made In The U.S.A.  See more details below. 



Inner Diameter:	1" Inch or 25mm

Applications:	Automotive, Marine, Fuel Filler, Oil & Diesel Transfer.

Outer Diameter:	1-1/2"

Wall Thickness:	1/4" 

Wall Reinforcement	Spiral Nylon Cord.

Rating:	Coast Guard Certified SAEJ1527 Type A2

Min Order Qty:	12" or 1ft

Max Order Qty:	600 or 50ft 

Fuel Types: 	Leaded, Unleaded / Petrol / Diesel And Oil - E85 and biodiesel up to B20

Cover Material: 	CR (Chloroprene Rubber)

Inner Tube Material:	NBR (Nitrile Buna Rubber)

Temperature Rating:	-34F to +257F 

Country Of Manufacture:	USA.



Way back when I did the research on this hose I thought that it being NBR would be fine and as far as I can tell it was identical to the one in my kit. I still believe it is fine, just a little concerned.

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 184

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:23 am Post subject: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

I used silicon hoses that are declared fuel proof. 



This site is in the UK but serves as a sample. 

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/s/samco-silicone-hoses-kits/samco-straight-silicone-hose-lengths

Alan



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		  On 30 Mar 2022, at 15:53, n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com> wrote:



--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com>



Hello,



Last weekend I had a failure of the 1 inch ID fuel coupling hose for the vent line at the top of the tank. The interior of the hose had swollen near the interface between the fitting and the PE boss in the tank (I assume there was contact with gasoline at this interface) and pulled out. But now I am concerned about the pickups at the bottom of the tank since a failure there means bye bye all fuel (except for 2.5 gallons). I checked the ones at the bottom of the tank and they look fine with no leaks but I am now concerned about the suitability of these coupling hoses.



When I got my old kit I replaced these couplings with hoses like the old ones in the kit (red stripe, same braiding, thickness, etc). I got high quality USCG approved but they are Type A2 (not for continuous contact with gasoline). Only thing with same characteristics and after all, red stripe as in the old couplings is generally in A2 filler hose.



Of course I could go to Europa to order these couplings but for something like this I think I should try to spec something here in the US. Any hints as to what people have used and were to buy? Type A1 (or A1-15) hose would be better but the ones I found online look like stiff heavily braided hoses so not sure they would work.



I also wonder how hard it will be to replace them? Will the fittings in the tank come out? Not looking forward to that job 



Ideas?

Chris





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506438#506438





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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

Thanks Alan.

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:04 am Post subject: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

ChrisI used 1" radiator hose.   There shouldn't be any direct contact with fuel



William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246



On Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 10:18 n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hello,

 

 Last weekend I had a failure of the 1 inch ID fuel coupling hose for the vent line at the top of the tank. The interior of the hose had swollen near the interface between the fitting and the PE boss in the tank (I assume there was contact with gasoline at this interface) and pulled out. But now I am concerned about the pickups at the bottom of the tank since a failure there means bye bye all fuel (except for 2.5 gallons). I checked the ones at the bottom of the tank and they look fine with no leaks but I am now concerned about the suitability of these coupling hoses.

 

 When I got my old kit I replaced these couplings with hoses like the old ones in the kit (red stripe, same braiding, thickness, etc). I got high quality USCG approved but they are Type A2 (not for continuous contact with gasoline). Only thing with same characteristics and after all, red stripe as in the old couplings is generally in A2 filler hose.

 

 Of course I could go to Europa to order these couplings but for something like this I think I should try to spec something here in the US. Any hints as to what people have used and were to buy? Type A1 (or A1-15) hose would be better but the ones I found online look like stiff heavily braided hoses so not sure they would work.

 

 I also wonder how hard it will be to replace them? Will the fittings in the tank come out? Not looking forward to that job 

 

 Ideas?

 Chris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506438#506438

 

 

 

 

 

 

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

Thanks Will. 



I would think then my coupling hoses are the correct selection. 



Maybe what happened with the vent fitting is that the hole around tank boss was a little small and the coupling hose, instead of going all the way up to the tank, it was butting against the cockpit module fiberglass around the tank's boss. 



Maybe movement of the tank pushed the coupling out allowing a little gasoline to lubricate the joint and it eventually just popped out.



To repair, I ground away some of the CM fiberglass around the boss to create a enough clearance for the coupling hose to fit through and installed a new coupling hose.



I'll keep and eye on it as well as the pickups at the tanks bottom. Flew yesterday and it was great. Today gusting 24 crossed to the runway so again grounded   



Chris

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:26 pm Post subject: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

I've used marine RP1 style hose (normally comes as 1 1/4 - 4 inch but can be found at one inch)  works well without issue.  It is thicker than fuel line, doesn't like to stretch, but works.

I have seen guys use marine fuel hose:  Trident 327 brand CE certified, SAE J1527, USCG type A2, ISO 7840 A2, ABYC H-24 & H-33 and it is available from 1-4 inches.  It is thinner and fuel safe.

I do not understand why the hose you were supplied would swell.  Sounds strange for sure.



I don't use heater hose unless they are silicone due to the auto fuel tends to attack the rubber, it stinks, and gets yucky soft after only a few years.  It also starts to crack after only a few years when it dries out.

I don't use PTFE hose as like our tank, if you dry it out and flex it, it will fail as it cracks.  It also does not slip over the bosses.  Too expensive and doesn't fit.  I don't use it on oil lines as it gets brittle and breaks the liner then over time, just weeps out oil.  Nasty.



Look at your boss off the tank.  Smooth the rough areas off, check the fit of the appropriate FS metal fitting used, as we want the F09a/b to fit inside the boss on the tank and have the flange flush as possible.

There is nothing wrong with Pro Seal around the inside and around the hose contact area.  The hose then is protected by the sealant, so it tends to last forever.  (Pro Seal is expensive, but there are acceptable substitutes sold by Aircraft Spruce in smaller and cheaper quantities.)



Red stripe marine fuel tank filler hose (or exhaust hose even which has a blue stripe)  has been a standard of mine for years.  Both the red and blue stripe are thick and stiff.  The one inch fuel supply line made by Parker or Goodyear is excellent but not common so I go to marine hose supply, this hose only an 1/8 inch thick and flexible but is delicate as the liner tears if the surface is rough or forced over a lip.  As you said, it is not as thick and stiff which is nice and the clamps fit. Locally Amazon Hose Supply sold me a foot of RP1 every few years...  All my fuel hose attachments are coated with a thin film of Pro Seal or similar as well as the clamps.  I've never had a failure but I had to go with larger hose clamps at times.  This hose lasts well over 5 years, but I change it anyway.  The Sealant requires me to carefully cut the hose to peel it off, but I plan for that.  Thin hose is easy to remove, thick heavily reinforced tube are tougher.



You have many marine and hose supply dealers.  If you look at the supply house, you will get what you need.  



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly



--

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:32 pm Post subject: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

Yes my limit is 12 kt cross if i dont absolutely have to fly.   

Fuel tank.   It doesnt sound exactly normal but maybe im not visualizing correctly.  Could you send me a pic?



William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246



On Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 14:24 n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Thanks Will. 

 

 I would think then my coupling hoses are the correct selection. 

 

 Maybe what happened with the vent fitting is that the hole around tank boss was a little small and the coupling hose, instead of going all the way up to the tank, it was butting against the cockpit module fiberglass around the tank's boss. 

 

 Maybe movement of the tank pushed the coupling out allowing a little gasoline to lubricate the joint and it eventually just popped out.

 

 To repair, I ground away some of the CM fiberglass around the boss to create a enough clearance for the coupling hose to fit through and installed a new coupling hose.

 

 I'll keep and eye on it as well as the pickups at the tanks bottom. Flew yesterday and it was great. Today gusting 24 crossed to the runway so again grounded  [Evil or Very Mad] 

 

 Chris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506449#506449

 

 

 

 

 

 

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

Thanks for the references Bud.



Thanks to all this feedback I think that my initial selection of hose was appropriate. The swelling I am referring to is at the line between the plastic boss and the aluminum fitting. The fitting is properly in the boss. Why did it happen who knows. I will try to make a picture of it.



Will, not sure about your question but here is a picture of the newly installed vent. As you can see, the CM fiberglass goes around the boss. It used to be a little tighter and the coupling hose would butt against it preventing from being inserted further in. I ground off some of the glass to increase the clearance which you can see the picture shows the hose further into the boss almost to the tank.



I think I will be fine. Will keep an eye on these components and if I have issues again will find some other brand of hose.



Best Regards,

Chris

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budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:05 am Post subject: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

Chris,



The hose over the fuel tank boss (which is about 1.125 inches) and the fuel fitting requires a hose that will stretch.  I thought perhaps you saw the stretched hose and figured it swelled from your original post.



The tank vent and filler area have been issues for those who fail to pay attention.  I've had to put aluminum tube in the 2 inch fuel inlet from the fuel filler because guys cranked the clamp so hard they crushed the fuel filler boss.  The vent and filler area of the module is normally cut conservatively without thought to fitting on the hoses.  The fiberglass has to be relieved to clear for the hose and clamps.  I have a drawing on this attached

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:56 am Post subject: Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

Thanks Bud,



The hose I am using stretches around the boss, with a little effort, but no problem. 



The idea of using an aluminum sleeve inside the boss is very good. At this point I don't see any crushing of the bosses so for now will just keep an eye on things and will carry on.



Yesterday took my beloved mono for a ride with my son. It was once again very enjoyable and ended with a greaser of a landing (with 120 hours now on it I seem to be getting better at this ) The airplane is now officially one year old and going strong. Yes, had to deal with a few teething issues but things are pretty stable now.



Best Regards,

Chris

Matt Dovey

Joined: 13 May 2017
Posts: 48
Location: st albans, england

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:16 am Post subject: Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank

Someone above mentioned Silicon hose. I wouldnt use it. It is NOT fuel proof, it is fuel resistant. The link to Merlin Motorsport even says so. I thought about using it on my fuel tank outlets. I bought some Silicon hose to try it out. I put some fuel on the outside of the hose and the hose disintegrated. So if the fuel resistant lining gets damaged or breaks down the hose as a whole breaks down. It breaks down very quickly. The only warning you get is a puddle of fuel. Silicon is OK for the filler neck, which isn't in constant with the fuel.

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